CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Jimmy Watkins analyze the team’s championship aspirations following recent trades, identifying which of the Pistons, Celtics, and Knicks are the Cavs’ biggest threats in the Eastern Conference.
Takeaways:
1. New All-Star Format and Player Competitiveness Drive Record Viewership
The 2026 NBA All-Star Game’s new format, which pitted Team USA against Team World, was a resounding success in terms of viewership, delivering the largest TV audience since 2011 and an 87% increase over the previous year. While the format provided a foundation of “bragging rights,” the true catalyst for the improved on-court product was the competitive fire of key players. Victor Wembanyama’s aggressive play from the opening tip seemingly inspired All-Star Game MVP Anthony Edwards and others to elevate their effort, transforming the game from a casual exhibition into a genuine contest. The analysis suggests that while logistical changes like shorter games help by reducing the physical demand on players who have a long weekend of media and sponsor obligations, the ultimate key to a compelling All-Star Game is having stars who genuinely care about competing and winning.
2. Calls Grow to Replace the Failing Dunk Contest with a One-on-One Tournament
While other All-Star weekend events like the three-point contest provided genuine excitement, the dunk contest continues to be a point of disappointment, failing to attract top-tier stars and generate compelling moments. The podcast proposes a clear solution: eliminate the dunk contest, at least temporarily, and replace it with a one-on-one tournament. This format is seen as a viable and exciting alternative that taps directly into the pride and competitive nature of NBA players, as seen in Edwards’ post-game comments about wanting to challenge league legends. Citing the success of similar events in the WNBA, the hosts argue that a one-on-one tournament could create must-see matchups, provide a new platform for players to prove their individual dominance, and reinvigorate a Saturday night slate that has grown stale.
3. The Cavs’ 3 Biggest Threats in the East Test Different Weaknesses
As the Cavaliers enter the final 27 games of the season, the hosts identified three primary rivals in the Eastern Conference, each posing a unique challenge. The Detroit Pistons represent a physical test, built to “muck the game up” and challenge the Cavs’ toughness and force of will, though their own playoff inexperience is a question mark. The Boston Celtics pose a mental and experiential threat; their core has deep playoff know-how and a “mental edge” that the Cavs have yet to prove they can overcome, though the uncertainty around Jayson Tatum’s return from injury is a major variable. Finally, the New York Knicks present the most difficult schematic matchup, with the ability to use a stretch-five to pull the Cavs’ elite rim protectors, Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley, away from the basket, thereby exposing the team’s questionable perimeter defense, particularly new acquisition James Harden.
4. Roster Overhaul Presents a High-Stakes Integration Challenge
The Cavaliers’ trade deadline moves, headlined by the acquisition of James Harden, have arguably given them the most talented roster in the Eastern Conference, with a depth of star power that few rivals can match. The additions of Dennis Schröder and Keon Ellis were also highlighted as crucial upgrades for playoff toughness and fit, representing an admission that previous roster constructions had failed. However, this talent infusion creates a significant challenge for the coaching staff: integrating a major star in Harden and other key rotation pieces with only 27 games left in the regular season. The team must thread a difficult needle of building on-court chemistry and satisfying new roles while simultaneously managing the health and workloads of stars like Harden and Donovan Mitchell to ensure they are prepared for the postseason.
5. Cavs Pegged as East Contenders, But Likely Not NBA Champions
Despite the significant roster upgrades and championship aspirations, the consensus is that the Cavaliers’ ceiling this season is likely an Eastern Conference title, not an NBA Championship. The James Harden trade positions them to legitimately contend with and potentially defeat top rivals like the Knicks, Celtics, and Pistons in a seven-game series. However, the analysts do not believe the current roster is equipped to beat the top-tier teams from the Western Conference, such as the Denver Nuggets or Oklahoma City Thunder, in the NBA Finals. They still have major questions about the Cavs’ playoff defense and cemented identity compared to their Western counterparts. Securing a top-two seed is therefore critical, as it would allow them to avoid facing more than one of their toughest Eastern rivals before a potential conference finals appearance.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Speaker A: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com columnist. And we’re here to discuss a little bit of the All Star Game, but also what comes next. Jimmy, we talked a lot before the All Star break that the All Star Game needed some renovations to help viewers want to tune in. Well, even if people didn’t think that it worked out as well as it could have, ensure the dunk contest still is something that needs to be reworked. There was proof that this All Star Game format proved to be helpful when it comes to getting people to tune in. The 2026 NBA All Star Game delivered the largest TV audience since 2011. The 2026 All Star Game topped last year’s viewership. Jimmy, get this. By 87%, where they had just 4.7 million views. We talked about it. Team World versus Team USA. The bragging rights, the purple pride aspect of it was huge. What did you think about the format, how it looked, and the competitive spirit that was shown on the floor?
Speaker B: The USA First World might have helped a little bit, but I think it helped more that one of the guys really cared and if the other guys didn’t care, then one day was just going to go out there and embarrass everybody. Like multiple people were saying, Ant in particular, who ended up winning the All Star Game MVP and earlier in the week had said is basically kind of is what it is. Someone asked him like, hey, you guys can actually try this time, or is it, or is it just this is the way it is? He’s like, ah, it kind of is what it is. Well, Wemby inspired something in him to change that stance. I also think the formatting of, of short games, I think that helped. I think that you’re asking less of guys if you’re asking them to just play semi hard for a quarter at a time than you are if you, if you’re expecting them to ask, if you’re asking them for a full game, because it should be, it should be noted and people should be reminded that like, this is a long weekend off the court for guys too. And I’m not just saying like, oh yeah, guys, guys are getting after it’s vacation, you know, go to the clubs and all that. I’m sure there is some of that, but there’s a lot of, they have a lot of obligations. There’s a lot of sponsored events they have, whether it’s their, their shoe deal, whether it’s their agency whether if they have like a partnership with a other sport. I mean, this is like the All Star weekend is like the hub of MBA business as well. Not to mention all the media obligations that guys have over. They’re like, that’s part of this, too. That’s. I think that’s part of the reason why in recent years, as this has become more and more and more of an inflated media event and agency event and branding event, that these guys have maybe been a little bit less likely to give us the show that we want on, on Sunday night because they’ve already had a super long weekend. But. And they’re also seeing all their teammates who didn’t make the All Star team on vacation. They’re like, man, is this supposed to be a reward? And I feel like I’m, you know, I’m working harder off the court than I. Than I usually am. Fair for fans to say, boohoo, that’s what the money is for. Absolutely. But that’s. That’s part of it. I think that’s part of the equation too. I also think it’s fair to criticize them for. Now that you’ve. You’ve shown us this, this is the standard we’re going to hold you to. Lemmy’s going to be around for a long time, so he’s going to keep doing this. And I think, I hope that he is the tide that raises all boats with this going forward like he was this weekend, because it’s, again, it’s a long weekend for these guys, but it really is a small ass. Like just this is a very rare opportunity for us to see 15 to 20 of the greatest basketball players on the court in the world at one time competing with each other. And we just want to see him compete. That’s it.
Speaker A: Anthony Edwards, Jamal Murray, Cade Cunningham, kind of following the lead of what Victor Wembanyama was doing. Obviously we saw the first play of the game. Victor Wembanyama came down after winning the opening tip and pinned Kate Cunningham under the basket for a dunk for the first score of the game. I think that set the tone for how the games were going to have to be played. And obviously Anthony Edwards is a competitive guy. Kate Cunningham is a competitive guy. Jamal Murray is a competitive guy. Wanting to be able to compete at a high level. It’s something that these guys know, love and want to do because it is at the end of the game, the game that they love, but that also talks about the other events and how it needs to be More competitive throughout the weekend for it to be fun. Obviously we talk about the three point contest and how that was an amazing showcase with Donovan Mitchell getting knocked out of the first round in the last go around with Damian Lillard, who was coming off an Achilles tear and and has not played a single game this season, being the person to knock him out and then ultimately winning the three point contest against Con Knippel and Devin Booker in the final round. I think that was huge. When you talk about the excitement of the game, obviously Damian Lillard becoming one of few players to win three three point contests and that kind of invigorated the other three point greats, right. Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson and Damian Lillard could all return to the three point contest next year when the contest is in Phoenix. You can get other great shooters who are capable, but they needed other greats to be surrounding them to come back and want to compete. And that’s kind of similar for the dunk contest, but we haven’t seen or heard of any changes like that or any additions going to be made. We just saw Mack McClung release what he would have done if he was participating in the dunk contest. And that’s why I think the dunk contest needs to be eliminated, at least for a little bit. Maybe it makes the heart grow fonder, but the other portion of that is you need a replacement and I think there’s a viable replacement that has been sitting right in front of the NBA. Especially when we talk about how the competition, how the pride aspect played into the games on Sunday. Right. We talk about how Kevin Durant still thinks he’s one of the best scorers in the NBA and I don’t think he’s wrong for thinking that. Anthony Edwards talked about it in his post game interview after the All Star game about how he wanted to put belt to the legends. That set the precedent for them. Right. And that makes him a viable piece for a one on one tournament and seeing how those guys would fare. Obviously there’s the pride of being a young guy or being an old veteran and still having game or all these different things. I think a one on one tournament and we’ve seen it in the wnba, we’ve seen it in unrivaled something that is so exciting an environment that everybody wants to tune into and especially if there is a monetary, a financial value at the end of the tournament. And obviously players could even wager on themselves behind the scenes between one another, whatever, in a friendly bet. But I think having a one on one tournament is the best solution to the dunk contest currently, because there has been no sure sign that the dunk contest is going to get better over the years or where there’s going to be relying on continuously the young guys who are willing or forced to participate in this kind of event. All right, but enough of the All Star weekend. We need to focus more on what is next, what comes after the All Star break, and that is the second half. And maybe people hate when this is being said, right? Because it’s not the second half. It’s only 27 games left. Jimmy.
Speaker B: Final third.
Speaker A: I like that. Final third. So The Cavs have 27 games left, and we need to set expectations for this team. We need to figure out where they’re going to end up when it comes to the Eastern Conference for whether this team is good enough. And obviously, there’s only been three games with James Harden, so we’re not going to go that far just yet. But I think we can realistically look at this schedule and get a vibe on where this team could be. We’ve already talked about that. The goal needs to be at least a number two seed in the Eastern Conference. I wrote about it for today on cleveland.com about how this cast team could look.
Speaker B: Why?
Speaker A: There are three teams that I feel like pose the biggest threats, and I want to run through it with you on this podcast, Jimmy. So for me, Jimmy, we obviously understand the standings of the NBA. Currently, we have the Detroit Pistons, who are the only team in the Eastern Conference with 40 wins. Then it’s the New York Knicks and the Boston Celtics. So those are the top three teams in the Eastern Conference currently. I believe that those are the three biggest threats for the Cavs. Stylistically, mathematically, and also roster construction wise, which team do you feel like could pose the biggest threat? Jimmy?
Speaker B: You know, what’s really interesting about these three teams is that I. They all test the Cavs in different ways. The Pistons, I mean, clear as day. The. The Pistons are coming out of the All Star break shorthanded because they can’t stop fighting people. That’s not a fair characterization. They’re just tough. They. They got into a heated matchup with the Hornets, and they got a little bit out of control. But that’s. That’s their disposition. They’re there to muck the game up. They’re. They’re there to push you out there. They don’t pose your will. And we know that. We’ve had questions about that for the Cavs over the last three playoff runs, and we haven’t really like last year’s playoff loss was not an issue of physical adversity, I don’t think. Although the Cavs would. Could say that the Pacers pace was a unique style of play to play against, and they didn’t get to play some of their stars, their usual playoff minutes, both due to injury and because the Pacers, you know, playing 35, 40 minutes against the Pacers is not the same as playing 35, 40 minutes against other playoff teams. That’s totally fair. That’s partially true. They need to work on that. That’s. That was part of Donovan Mitchell’s offseason thinking is I need to be in the best shape of my career this year because, you know, last year didn’t end the way I wanted in part because the pace of work running us off the court, literally and figuratively. But this kind of matchup, this is basically Knicks 2.0, but the roles are kind of flipped. The Cavs have been through a few playoff wars now. The Pistons are still kind of new. They, this core essentially has one playoff series together that was a loss last year to the New York Knicks. So they, they test the Cavs from that perspective. Rebounding, physicality, the. The force of. The force of will conversation, that sort of stuff. I still have questions about Detroit’s playoff offense. We’ll see. I don’t think they’re the answer because of their inexperience, because of their, the. They have shooting, but it’s. It’s shooting that you have to play that comes at a sacrifice. Right. If you’re playing Kevin Herder or Duncan Robinson. The Cavs are going to pick on those guys relentlessly. So I have questions about that team. I think it would be a fascinating matchup, even beyond, like, it’s a fascinating basketball matchup. But then of course, you say, oh, yeah, the Cavs, former coach JP Burgerstaff is over there running things. I think we’d all love to see how that, how that would pan out. The Boston Celtics test the Cavs from the playoff know how perspective, right. That the Celtics, it’s a different kind of group, but I mean, the core of Derrick White, Jalen Brown, and eventually I think we’re going to see Jason Tatum. They have learned lessons by virtue of experience in the playoffs, by virtue of advancing in the playoffs. The Cavs still don’t know yet everything you want to say. Donovan Mitchell’s awesome. Evan Moby’s a defensive player of the year caliber player. I’m excited to see how he fits with James Harden. I Like these, this batch of role players. Jaylon Tyson, we know he’s been a revelation this season and we think he’s going to show up in the playoffs, but we don’t know. You can’t know until you see it, right? The Celtics just have more bankable commodities and they have that mental edge over the Cavs in the playoffs. That’s just the fact. And then the Knicks will test the Cavs defense and that’s what I kind of want to hone in on here because I think that somewhere between New York and Boston lies the answer to, to me it’s not necessarily what am I most concerned about those that those other teams do, it’s what do they expose in the Cavs. And one of the big questions for me is perimeter defense. Then. So what the Knicks do is with the stretch five that they have, that they stretch five center lineups that they could deploy with Carl Anthony Towns, they can pull Jared Allen and Evan Mobley away from the basket. One or one of them, they can pull one of Jared Allen, Evan Mobley away from the basket. In some constructors, they can pull them both out away from the basket. That, that leaves a lot on the plates of the Cavs perimeter defenders. James Harden upgrade over Darius Garland on defense still a negative. The clippers were still 7.8 points per 100 possession possessions better with James Harden off the court on defense than they were with him on the court this year. He’s still been, I think he’s been with it earlier today and negative in that regard for, you know, 13 of his 17 seasons. We know what it is like. He’s stronger, he’s barrel chested, he’s hard to post up. Here’s what I’ll say about James Harden. He will get overpowered less often than Darius Garland did on defense, but teams are still going to go at him. Teams are going to try to get him involved in off ball actions too. And the Caps try to hide him because they know that’s a weakness of his and I’m interested to see how they handle that. So I think I would say slight edge to the Knicks just because I’m not sure about what Jayson Tatum is going to look like when he comes back. The Celtics, that’s, that’s the biggest question we have about the Cavs, right? Is that that playoff readiness. And the thing that we can’t know until we see it and that’s the one thing that the Celtics have over the rest of this Eastern Conference.
Speaker A: So in layman’s terms, Detroit tests them physically. Boston tests them mentally, and the New York Knicks have the best roster to counteract with.
Speaker B: The Cavs have schematically. Is that fair?
Speaker A: Yeah, I like that one. For me, obviously, as you mentioned, Jimmy, the biggest question is whether or not Jayson Tatum returns and what form does he return to. Right? Because even if he’s at 75%, if he’s on the court, the Cavs do not have enough people, enough playable defensive wings to guard both Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum at the same time. We talk about it a lot, how the Cavs like splitting up their stars, James Harden and Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley and Jared Allen. Boston doesn’t necessarily do that. They can, but they know that they’re better suited on the court when they are on the floor together. That is the your turn, my turn conversation. Right. With Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. And it would be difficult unless Jalen Tyson and Dean Wade are on the court together at all times, basically for the Cavs to have a good shot at slowing down Boston Detroit, while again, as Jimmy mentioned, the physicality would be a great test. JD Biggerstaff is a great story. All these things, I think the Cavs are more tough, both mentally and physically for them to be able to put up with whatever is put in front of them in that type of series. Right. Obviously, Cade Cunningham is not a true playoff performer yet. We don’t know if he’s going to ride. The other portion of this is the New York Knicks and matching up with the Cavs, Jalen Brunson, obviously, then you have two options to go at Jalen Brunson and Jalen Tyson and Dean Wade. But then you have to figure out, is OG Anunoby going to be able to do what he does. How does Mitchell Robinson impact this conversation? And I think that’s the biggest portion of this conversation that we haven’t touched yet, Jimmy, is the moves that these other teams made. Almost every move around the Eastern Conference was with the mindset of getting out of the east.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: The New York Knicks basically told us that they have faith in Mitchell Robinson’s injury history and injury progression because they got rid of Gershon Yabuzeli. They said we don’t need a backup power forward center, we need more ball handling help. So we’re willing to go away from Yabuzeli and get Jose Alvarado, who isn’t necessarily a star in any means, but can help Jalen Brunson get off the ball and mitigate how the ball handling duties are distributed, especially in A playoff series. The Boston Celtics made arguably the best move in the Eastern Conference when it comes to gaining Nikola Vucevic from the Chicago Bulls. He’s a player that has given the Cavs fits on the offensive glass in recent history and he also is a player that helps them set up the pick and roll, the pick and pop with Peyton Prishard and all these different avenues that the Cavs have had trouble guarding this season. Where the Boston Celtics, coming into the All Star break or ahead of the trade deadline, excuse me, did not have a true center to do this and they’re still the second seed in the Eastern Conference. Jimmy and then the Detroit Pistons, we talked about them needing shooting coming into the season. They went and got Duncan Robinson, they got off Jaden Ivey at the trade deadline and picked up Kevin Herder. So now you have the spacing, you have the shooting, you have other avenues for the Detroit Pistons to attack. Talent wise, the defense that the Cavs have stretched kind of thin, especially when we talk about perimeter defense. And I think Cade Cunningham showed, especially in the All Star Game, that his passing acumen is growing and he doesn’t necessarily have to do it but by himself if he has better options around him. And I think the Detroit Pistons are going to have a little bit of a bumpy stretch when it comes to their obviously suspended players, but also integrating this new piece. Plus when those players that are suspended come back, reintegrating them with the pieces as well. What did you think about the moves that were made around the margins of across the league? Obviously we know James Harden, Dennis Schroeder, Keon Ellis for the Cleveland Cavaliers. LeBron James even praised on his recent Mind Game podcast how this Cavs team is going to be better suited. We came into the season saying it was one of the best roster constructions that they’ve had since LeBron James was here last. I think it got even better ahead of the trade deadline. What do you think and where do you think think the Cavs fall when it comes to roster construction, but also knowing that on paper only goes so far. Execution is actually going to be where this Cavs team makes its money.
Speaker B: First of all, let’s all get our wind horse fingers ready. Why is LeBron praising the Cavs trade deadline acquisitions? I wonder if LeBron’s looking forward to the summer at all. I digress. I think roster wise, I think Cavs are as talented as any team in the east and their depth of talent. I made a fool of myself for saying those last year against the Pacers, but I still think their depth of talent, like they run, they run three legitimate stars deep. Evan Moby’s a different kind of star, but they run three legitimate stars deep. Who else can say this in the Eastern Conference, right? But the Knicks got Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns. We all have our questions about Carl Anthony Towns. Celtics got Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown. A lot of guys, a lot of teams that we’re talking about here, they don’t have the third, right. Jalen Duran and Kate Cunningham. Jalen Duran’s a different kind of star, too. And of course, we have our questions about James Harden’s playoff performance and how Evan Mobley will be integrated when he comes back, all that sort of stuff. But just like you look at the roster count up all the athletes, Cavs stack up with anybody. They there’s a reason why everyone’s so bullish on them after this trade deadline. And the other thing that they did, as Chris keeps mentioning, is, look, I don’t know how Dennis Sch is going to necessarily fit his way into the the playoff rotation when he’s sharing the court with one of James Harden or Donovan Mitchell at all times on offense. And he’s not, you know, the sturdiest or tallest guy on defense, but he’s going to fight pure playoff toughness, big game acumen, experience. Dennis Schroeder is an upgrade over Darius Garland, not just James Harden. We’re talking about that very specific thing, Keone Ellis. I think the Cavs are making a bet that he will fit better than DeAndre Hunter did. As much as the Cavs were about acquiring some of these players, it was also about admitting that some of the existing fits weren’t there. Right. They were admitting that they were concerned about Darius Garland’s injury, track record and playoff readiness. They were admitting that the DeAndre Hunter trade was a swing and a miss. They were admitting that the Lonzo ball as missing piece theory that that didn’t work out. That didn’t work out. Right. And they replaced those guys with Dennis Sher, Keon Ellis, James Hart. So it’s a little bit of though thinking of it’s addition by subtraction and we’ll see how that works over the course of 27 games here. I really, I want to underline 27 games because the Cavs have a really tricky needle to thread and that is that they have to one, figure out a way to fit all these pieces together in a way that’s coherent by the time the playoffs come around because they’re going to Be in some battles like these are. These are three legitimate contenders that I think can. Can push them into long series. And I think, I mean the Knicks and Celtics, we’ll see what Jason Tatum looks like. I would bet the Knicks and Celtics might be favored over the Cavs in a playoff series if they were playing it today. I don’t know. The Cavs have shot up the Vegas odds books since the James Harden trade. I know that. But I think once we get to, once we start seeing these guys play in playoff series, the Celtics start looking really good and the Knicks offense looks better in the playoffs. I could see it. How do you satisfy what needs to be satisfied in making everyone feel comfortable with playing each other and keep everyone healthy for the playoffs? That’s the number one thing here, right? And some of these guys, let’s say James Harden in particular, already has a lot of mileage on him. Cavs are going to be careful about rusting him. Him and Donovan Mitchell both have just been carrying a lot of their offense this year. They’re going to, they’re going to be scheduled rest days. The Cavs probably won’t need everybody to win, win a lot of these games because again, they have one of the easiest schedules in the NBA. But I just think those are a couple of tricky threads to intertwine is make sure that your roster is prepared for the playoffs because first and foremost we want to poo poo the caps, you know, injury excuses over the last few playoffs years. I get it, it’s deeper than that. But it also is true that they’ve had injuries every single playoff run and they’re trying to avoid, they’re going to try to avoid that this year again like they did last year. It’s preventative. And they’re also trying to integrate, you know, a massive piece in James Harden and then choose two smaller pieces that they have big plans for in the playoffs. I think that’s a really interesting challenge for Kenny Atkinson.
Speaker A: I think that’s why them getting a top two seed is so important because we know that even though last year against the Indiana Pacers as the number one seed, they had a five game flameout and it didn’t end up that the number one seed ended up helping them. Right. But again, injuries played into that. Of course this isn’t the same team and I think any advantage that they can take, especially with not having to face two of these teams before getting to the Eastern Conference finals, would be extremely helpful for this Cavs team because they understand the strength of the teams that they would have to go up against to get there. And obviously, everybody wants to do whatever is best for the organization, for. For the franchise, for the team, especially going forward. And I think they’re going to be very cautious in monitoring the health of their players. Obviously, Donovan Mitchell will have rest games, right? James Harden will have rest games. Evan Mobley, coming off a calf strain, will have rest games. And while that is true, they still want to stack wins. And we talked about it on a recent podcast. I don’t think it’s crazy to think that the Cavs can go 20 and 7 over their final 27 games, right? That would give them 54 wins this season. I don’t think it’s crazy to think that they could be better than that because of what the strength of their schedule is, how weak their schedule is for the remaining 27 games. But I do also think that they are going to be as strategic as possible. And there’s. There’s two games against Detroit and one each against Boston and New York before the season is over. So that’s four games where they could jump in the seatings just right there, right? And obviously there’s TV games where the Cavs are going to have to play their stars unless they want to take on another hefty fee, which we know they don’t want to do. So I think you have to take all of these into account when you’re planning the rest schedule for this team and what they’re going to look like for the remainder of the season. But I do think, and I want to reiterate this, that it is not unrealistic for the Cavs to win up to 54 games this season. And I think this cast team is built and wants to continue winning. Like Dennis Schroeder and Keon Ellis came in. Obviously they’ve won every game that they’ve played with for this Cavs team. I think they want to continue winning, especially coming from a Sacramento team that wasn’t doing that and couldn’t do that. They’re not even trying to lose games. They just couldn’t win games and now they have an opportunity to win. And I think that’s different for how players are perceiving this league in this conference. And obviously we’ve talked about it since the summertime, how this is the most wide open the Eastern Conference has been and probably will be because of Jayson Tatum’s injury, because of Tyrese Halliburton’s injury. And that’s the other thing Jimmy Jason Tatum keeps posting on social media being cryptic. He keeps talking to us about how his recovery is going make it a timeline of where he’s at, where he was, the amount of months he’s been out and the amount of months that he’s put work in to get back. I think this is as much important of Max Drus having a Runway for the Cavs to see how he’ll be re acclimating to the lineup. If Jayson Tatum could get 10 games in the regular season, I think that would be huge for him and the Boston Celtics. I’m not talking about 15, 20 games. If he can get 10 games because of the continuity of that group and the mindset of that group and how much he’s been around the team already in film sessions and all these other things at practices. Even just watching like there is a level of chemistry and camaraderie and mindset that has been built up between him, Jaylen Brown, Joe Missoula’s crazy self and obviously Peyton Pritchard trying to find his role in and obviously even being better actually coming off the bench than being in the starting lineup. I think that is the most scary option for this Boston Celtics team and could be the most difficult one for the Cavs if he’s able to make that return.
Speaker B: It’s also the most challenging one to project. Right. Because Jason Tatum so many questions about what happens when Jason Tatum comes back. How prepared is he to become the old version of him that we understand. How long, how much time does he need to get back to that after he comes back to to re acclimate to playing NBA level basketball and and getting back to I don’t think we will ever see if we do see Jason Tam 100% again this year. So that’s good. Win title like that’s on the table. I don’t think we’re going to see that. I don’t think the wrong the the Runway is long enough and it’s going to be such a it’s like Jason Tatum’s trying to catch a plane that’s moving, hop on a train that’s moving. With Jaylen Brown so established as the center of the current Celtics universe, that dynamic, how do you guys manage that again? Now that Jaylen Brown has clearly established himself as one of the 1015 best players in the NBA this season, I think it’s also also fascinating. I also just want to say and the trade we haven’t talked about yet, a move we haven’t talked about yet that underscores the urgency of this season is the Pacers trade for Aicha Z Watch. That’s just a reminder to the rest of the NBA. The mid all this conversation about the tank and them trying to get a a high lottery pick for next year. Sad by what you said about the Kings is very funny because we’ve we have a tanking, a mini. You would think listening to the national discussion that we have a mini tanking epidemic. I mean in our Midst Right now Utah Jazz are only playing guys 3, 3/4 at a time and other teams are resting dudes and Giannis. The Bucks are trying to shut down Giannis. Meanwhile the Kings. I can’t tell is it honorable that the Kings are just normal terrible or is it even more embarrassing that they’re so bad that we’re having a tanking conversation and they’re as bad as any of these other teams who are trying very hard inventing creative ways to make themselves worse and I don’t know, just an aside. Another reason to believe that you’re going to get great versions of Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroeder because they’re just so happy to be out of that situation. But looming overall this is the fact that the east should be significantly better next year because the Pacers will be back. Tyrus Halliburton, we’ll be back again. We’ll see what Tyrese looks like. But they’ve added Avici Zubac, who in my opinion is an upgrade over Miles Turner. They may also add a potential generational prospect at the top of the draft. Possibly. We don’t know where Giannis is going to go. He might stay East. Like there’s there’s a lot of moving parts here. So the Cavs. I know we say it’s a two year window with the Cavs and the Cavs will probably be a better team, a more prepared team to make a championship run with this current group next season. Of course this is LeBron factor, but just like by virtue of it’s really hard to add a major star midstream, history tells us that these kinds of trades, even when they lead to championships, they don’t usually lead to championships right away. But the Cavs are in a unique position of urgency because the east is as feels as gettable as it ever has, which is part of the many layered motivations for why they made this trade. So I just want to. I just want to float that out there too. Tyres Halberton’s watching this with a careful eye of each Zubach who the Pacers are probably going to invent new injury designation sport he’s watching this with a careful eye. They’re waiting. They’re looming over all this next year. They’re the defending Eastern Conference champions. They don’t have a say this year, but they might next year.
Speaker A: All that to say, I think the Clippers backcourt of Darius Garland and Benedict Math could be very interesting, very interesting whenever they both get healthy. But that’s not for today. Let’s not go that far on today’s podcast. Let’s focus on the east because again, the Cavs have to get out of the east to then get west. Right. Because the Eastern Conference semifinals is again the baseline for the Cavs. They have yet to get through that ceiling. They need to get through that ceiling to be able to find a way to get further along. And obviously Donovan Mitchell has talked about it. James Harden has admitted it. They have made all these moves with a championship in mind this year, not next year, not in the years to come. That is all uncertain this year with James Harden, the Cavs feel like they have a chance to win the championship. I want to know from you, Jimmy, do you agree with that or do you think they will only get out of the Eastern Conference or do you think they’ll get stalled in the Eastern Conference finals with the roster that they currently have?
Speaker B: So I agree they can win a championship insofar as if you get to the finals, you can win a championship and you’re, you know, a couple good bounces away or you know, injury breaks away from. From winning it all. That being said, I don’t think everything being equal, everyone being healthy, the Cavs are even after the James Harden trade, even if they rewrite some playoff narratives about themselves over the course of an Eastern Conference, choose championship run, I still don’t think they’re good enough to hang with any of the conventional Western Conference champion picks. Like I think I don’t. I wouldn’t pick them against the Thunder. I wouldn’t pick them against the Nuggets. Don’t think I’d pick them against the Wolves even. Like, I just think that. I think that, that those teams have proven much more and have a little bit more of a cemented identity than the Cavs do. And they’re better two way teams. I have qu. I still have questions, big questions about the Cavs playoff defense that we can get into deeper as, as. As the season returns here. But in the East, I could see it. I think they could beat any one of these teams. I still need to see the proof. I’m not ready to pick them right Now I think right now the Knicks are the safest pick. I still, the Celtics are just keep mowing at me man, because I do think Tatum’s gonna come back. I do think he’s gonna have a nice Runway and I do like what they’ve got going over there spirit wise all the kinds of rotation guys they’ve unearthed over the course of this surprising run. I do like Boston more and more the more I think about it and I, I have enough questions about the Cavs in each of these individual matchups with Detroit, New York and Boston that I’m not sure I’d pick them to win against win two of those series background that’s why I think this regular season is this end of regular season stretch is so crucial for them as many of those teams they could avoid playing. That’d be great. Let them figure out their playoff woes against against somebody else and or at least open the door for other teams to take care of their business for them. Right. Like if you’re however these four teams play out, I mean do the math. There’s eight playoff teams in the first round. If everyone takes care of their business, we’re going to see these matchups. The cas are going to have to play two of these teams. Right. But you never know what happens if you if the the Celtics end up the four seed or the the Knicks end up foreseeable could happen in the first round of playoffs. Right. So I think that the rest of this regular season is really important. I think the Cavs can absolutely win the East. I’m not ready to pick them yet and I’m definitely not ready to pick them to win a championship.
Speaker A: I said this when the trade rumors for James Harden were picking up and I’m going to stick with it. I think the trade for James Harden allows the Cavs to get out in the Eastern Conference. I do not think that they can win against a Western Conference opponent of that caliber that you mentioned, Jimmy, and then a seven game series. I think they needed to go get a Giannis. I think they needed to go make a bigger move to coincide with their James Harden move if they were going to fully win a championship. Right. I think they are now capable of contending with the New York Knicks, the Boston Celtics and the Detroit Pistons to a different level than they could just a month ago. But I still don’t think obviously we talked about the matchups, we talked about all the underlying storylines that could impact the Cavs. Obviously again the Detroit Pistons getting better, the Boston Celtics getting better, the New York Knicks potentially getting better. I don’t necessarily like the Knicks move that they made, but that’s neither here nor there. They all schematically, physically, mentally can challenge the Cavs in a seven game series. I do think this move gives them a better chance to get out of the Eastern Conference. But I am not sold that they can win a championship with this roster. And I don’t know what that bodes for when it comes to the end of season, postseason conversations about contracts and where this roster will look. Because we’ve said this on this podcast at an abundance. This team is going to look vastly different than it did this year, next year. And that’s because of expiring contracts. That also is because of where this Cavs team can finish in the playoffs this year. Jimmy, I want to do something fun really quickly before we get out of here. I want to circle back to the All Star conversation really quickly because I was scrolling through social media and this caught my eye and I could not let it go. Boogie Cousins took to a national outlet to call out Brian Windhorst and Stephen A. Smith, two media personalities that we know hold so much weight in this basketball game. In particular, saying that they need to compete in the celebrity All Star Game just like Shams did. Right? Because they want to see what kind of athletes they are. Do you have the capabilities of talking about the sport if you can’t play the sport? Right. And I think it’s interesting because remember when the Boston Celtics held their media versus Coaches game and we had this conversation of how fun that would be, starting to put together a little roster of our own. Right? Maybe we have Mikey McNuggets from the Ultimate Cleveland Sports show as running the point. Jimmy running the two. We got other things cooking to go against the Cavs coaching staff or maybe even just their PR staff. That’s as far as we got in that conversation. But I think one, it would be fun to see these guys compete and see what they could do on the court, especially with how much connectivity they have throughout the league. But I also think it would help earn their respect while Shams was on Team Giannis. And that was a whole different conversation with after the trade deadline with Sean’s reporting that Giannis could be trading, could be requesting a trade. That was a little awkward, a little dicey, but I think you need that at some points. Jimmy, what do you think about what Boogie Cousins is saying about the celebrity All Star Game? Because I know not a lot of people watch that. I know I didn’t watch it this Year. But I think if you have these kinds of names on it, obviously Shams was also getting promo from ESPN and NBA on ESPN before the game. I think it could bring some insight to who these people are covering the game, but it also could allow the players and the coaches and to get more connected to these guys as people, rather than just breaking news and maybe saying things that they shouldn’t.
Speaker B: Okay, so there’s a lot here I would say. First of all, the idea that this could earn reporters more respect. I don’t know. Did Shams earn more respect by going scoreless in the celebrity game? I just googled his stats. Probably not. In fact, I haven’t been looking, but he’s probably getting more ridicule. And the people who are. The people who say if you can’t play the game, you shouldn’t analyze the game are doubling down on that because now they have video evidence that in their mind, champs can’t play the game. So, I mean, hey, one game sample size is what Shams might come back and say, give me. Give me a little bit more run. Wait till next year. So the idea that they’re gonna, like, I mean, do we think Stephen A. Smith and Brian Lindhorse are gonna cook in the celebrity All Star Game? I’ve seen Stephen A hit a couple jumpers pregame. The man’s 58 years old. Like, it’s a health risk at that point. Wendy is approaching 50. I don’t think, like, at that point, it’s too late. It’s probably a little too late for that. And I just think that no matter what happens, I don’t think anyone’s gonna ever change. Like, this is just like, players see the analyst game this way. They. They firmly believe. I’m not trying to pigeonhole an entire group of people into one opinion, but by and large, in my experience, having these conversations with players, in hearing people like Boogie voice their. Like, this is a widely held opinion among players that it’s not fair for people like us to criticize basketball players when we have not ever achieved anything in basketball that could even hold a candle to the. And you know what? I think there’s some fairness to that. There’s definitely some fairness to that. And I don’t think there’s any way that no celebrity All Star game performance would ever change anyone’s mind in that regard. It might be fun. It might be. I don’t. I’m trying to think of media members that I know. Can. I think Tim McMahon from ESPN. He’s. He’s got some pickup game lore run like Dead McMan from ESPN’s Pretty Good Shooter from from what I’ve heard, those.
Speaker A: Kinds of guys, Tony Jones, Tony Athletic.
Speaker B: Tony Jones tweets about playing pickup a lot. So I’ll. I will. I think if you do, if you play a lot of pickup, then you’re probably going to do do all right. In the celebrity All Star Game, maybe those guys curry more favor with players. But like it. I would circle it back to what you just said at the top, Ethan, who’s watching the celebrity offset cam? My answer is mostly nobody, certainly not me as someone who had to Google Shams a stat line at the start of their segment. So I just think that I get, I get where Boogie is coming from. But I think that even if Stephen A. Smith, let’s say he was in his prime and put up 25 in the celebrity All Star Game, the next time Stephen A. Smith said something about Boogie Cousins, the Boogie Cousins didn’t like, he would still fall back to Stephen A. Smith has never done anything in basketball court worth worth mentioning. So Shrug.
Speaker A: The reason I said they would get respect is because after the Boston Celtics coaches versus journalists scrimmage or whatever we want to call that demolition Joe Missoula talked about how that he got to learn about them because obviously there’s the cliche that you can learn about a person based on how they hoop, right. Who they are as a person based on how they play. And I think there’s some truth to that. And obviously Joe Missoula, who is a mental nutcase but is extremely good at what he does and reading people, found value in it. And I think it helped him earn a different level of understanding of the people that he communicates with on a daily basis. Even sees sometimes more than his family because travel on the road and all these things. So whether or not that correlates to the All Star Game, who knows but Boogie Cousins and as as we talk about wanting more ratings in the NBA, trying to find ways to get viewership up as they did with the All Star Game, Boogie Cousins said it would be must see tv.
Speaker B: It was no one’s math. I’ll stop you right there. People don’t need to see more reporters playing Pick a poops. All right? I’ve seen it. I’ve seen a plenty of times. I live it. No one’s paying to see me. It’s fine.
Speaker A: Nobody’s playing to see to see the half court shot. Jimmy. Oh man.
Speaker B: All right, so hey, pay me. Pluck me out of the crowd. You’ll end up paying me $10,000.
Speaker A: I thought, oh, now we’re talking about the $10,000 shootout that they be having and picking random people that can’t get the ball to the three point line from half court. Anyway, enough of those conversations. And I appreciate your honesty, Joey, but I do think that we still need to talk to Colby Altman about getting a Cavs media versus either the PR staff or the coaching staff. Because I know some people on the PR staff want the smoke, and I definitely know some of the coaches don’t think we can hold a candle to them. And I don’t think we can either. I just think it’d be fun because, you know, we love ball and that’s why we do this for a living.
Speaker B: Can I say this? There’s to the Missoula point, I think there is something to be said in the willingness to put yourself out there in that way, kind of knowing you’re going to get embarrassed, as any set of media corps reporters would against any coach of staff in the NBA. Like, bar none, I think there’s something to be said for that. I think that, that there’s a respect element to that, putting yourself out there and taking this whooping. But as as far as, oh, I’m going to respect your basketball analysis more because I forced you into five turnovers before you cross half court. No, that’s, that’s not happening.
Speaker A: That was insane. The pressure defense, 94ft was crazy. Hey, they just needed more ball handlers. Maybe, maybe we can ask Donovan tips.
Speaker B: Pass out of a press. Stop trying to dribble, everyone.
Speaker A: People got to be open for you to do that though, Jim. All right, well, thank you, Jimmy, for your insight, for having some fun with me on today’s podcast, but also previewing what could be the final third of the NBA season for the Cleveland Cavaliers with just 27 games remaining, look how far we have come. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Send in your weekly hey Chris questions so we can handle them this week if you want this information. If you want to send in your questions, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the message. Way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.