CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the Cavs’ outlook for the final 27 games of the season, beginning with the injury status of Max Strus.
Takeaways:
Max Strus’s Return to the Cavaliers Remains Uncertain and Debated
Max Strus’s recovery from offseason foot surgery has suffered a setback, and while he is progressing with on-court work, he is not yet cleared for contact. The podcast noted that the Cavaliers are being especially cautious, with a return in February seen as unlikely and a March timeline more probable, though no official date has been set. His prolonged absence has sparked a debate about the value of his return late in the season. While his experience with the team is a positive, there is concern that integrating him with only 10-15 games remaining could disrupt the chemistry the team is trying to build with other new and returning players like James Harden, Evan Mobley, and Dean Wade.
Jarrett Allen’s Dominance Challenges the Future of the Two-Big Lineup
Jarrett Allen’s recent All-Star level performance as the team’s sole big man has ignited a legitimate conversation about the team’s closing lineup and the future of the two-big pairing with Evan Mobley. The hosts highlighted Allen’s crucial role in late-game offensive execution, particularly his effective screen-setting and burgeoning pick-and-roll chemistry with James Harden. This performance has made it difficult for Kenny Atkinson to justify benching him in crucial fourth-quarter moments. While the Mobley-Allen duo provides elite rim protection, its offensive cohesion and floor spacing are now under greater scrutiny, forcing a re-evaluation of the long-term viability and situational use of the two-big frontcourt.
James Harden’s Arrival Reshapes Rotations and Lowers Pressure on Evan Mobley
The acquisition of James Harden is seen as a transformative move that fundamentally alters the Cavaliers’ offensive structure and internal expectations. His reliable playmaking allows for more flexible rotations, reducing the need to always have Donovan Mitchell or Evan Mobley on the floor. This opens up possibilities for potent new pairings, such as staggering minutes to feature a Harden-Allen duo and a Mitchell-Mobley duo. Most significantly, Harden’s presence as a legitimate co-star means the team’s championship aspirations no longer hinge on Mobley making an immediate leap to superstardom. This shift allows Mobley to develop more naturally as a third or fourth option without the immense pressure of being the team’s primary barometer for success.
Atkinson Expected to Deploy a More Flexible Playoff Rotation
A significant change from last season is the expected evolution in Atkinson’s in-game philosophy. After relying heavily on his starters and a rigid, shortened rotation during last year’s playoffs, Atkinson is anticipated to be far more adaptable this postseason. Having been forced to navigate numerous injuries, he has reportedly built a higher level of trust with his depth pieces throughout the regular season. This newfound confidence in his bench is expected to translate into a more flexible, matchup-dependent approach in the playoffs, where he will be more willing to make adjustments and utilize players deeper on the roster to counter specific situations.
Cavaliers Operating with a Ruthless ‘Championship or Bust’ Mentality
The podcast emphasized that a “championship or bust” mentality is now driving all personnel decisions for the Cavaliers. This has fostered a performance-based environment where on-court impact overrides player status or contract size. The hosts made it clear that if Max Strus returns and is not effective, he will be benched in favor of more productive options. This ruthless focus on winning was evident in the team’s trade deadline moves, which offloaded players deemed to be liabilities. This philosophy ensures that only the players who contribute most effectively to winning at the highest level will earn minutes, marking a significant cultural shift for the organization.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me Today, Chris Fedor, cleveland.com Cavs beat reporter and he’s back after a well deserved time off ahead of the All Star break. But now it’s time to Discuss the final 27 games of the regular season for the Cleveland Cavaliers and the best way to do so a hey Chris episode with the Wine and Gold Talk podcast where we answer questions from our Subtext subscribers. The only way to send in your questions and have your questions answered is subscribing to Subtext 14 days free 3.99amonth and this is where you can get daily information, content and insight from me, Chris and Jimmy that you cannot get or is not readily available on social media platforms like X, formerly Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, Facebook, you name it. Subtext is where you get your insider information at the drop of a hat and directly to your your phone. But without further ado, we have to get into tomorrow night’s game against the Brooklyn Nets where the Cleveland Cavaliers are starting a five game and seven night stretch directly after the All Star break. It’s cruel what the NBA League schedulers have done to the Cleveland Cavaliers this year, but we have to look at who is finally available and and who still is not. So first and foremost, Evan Mobley and Dean Wade are no longer on the Cavs injury report. They will make their return after the All Star break on Thursday against the Nets, barring any injuries before the game. Obviously the Cavs are not holding shoot around on Thursday so all things are pointing in the right direction. But the first question from our subtexters deals with the other player who has remained on the injury report all season long. Ben Y from Akron says, is Max Strus ever coming back? I say that a little bit in jest of course, but it doesn’t inspire confidence that we’re in mid February and Max Drew is no closer to returning to the court. I wonder if we’ll be lucky to have him back by April. That gives him a small amount of time to ramp up and get ready for the playoffs, which is concerning Chris, what are you hearing about Max Strus? I asked Kenny Akinson at practice today. He did not have a timeline for us. He’s saying he’s progressing but he’s still not taking contact. Is this an essence where Max Truce re aggravated the injury? Are the Cavs just being cautious? What’s the situation with Max Truce?
Chris Fedor: I think it’s a little bit of both. You know, if we go back to when they announced that that Max needed to be shut down and get further evaluation on his foot, they didn’t want to classify it as a re injury because they don’t like to use those kinds of terms. But yeah, I mean, you can look at it as a setback. You can look at it as he re injured. It. You don’t pull somebody back from workouts. You don’t set, say, hey, we’re going to reevaluate you once again within a month. If nothing happened, clearly Max wasn’t right. The foot wasn’t healing properly. He wasn’t feeling the way that he wanted to when he was going through all those different workouts. I think the positive, if there is a positive, is that, you know, after another reevaluation recently, it allowed him to get back on the court in some capacity. Now it’s not contact, it’s not two on two, it’s not three on three, it’s not five on five. It’s not workouts with the Cleveland Charge, the team’s G League affiliate, a step that he’ll probably take before he actually comes back and actually gets cleared to play. But the fact that after undergoing a reevaluation recently, him being able to get back on the floor, continue some on court workouts, some of them that are going to continue to get more and more rigorous, that is a positive. But this is a lengthy recovery. This is a lengthy ramp up that he’s probably going to have to deal with. This is somebody who he originally injured the foot before training camp even started. So he didn’t get any training camp. He lost the back end of his off season workouts. No training camp, no preseason, no regular season action. There are just certain steps that he’s going to have to take before he can show the medical staff and before the medical staff can say, yes, you’re ready to go, yes, you’re ready to take contact. And then once you take contact, yes, you’re ready to start ramping up to 4 on 4, 5 on 5. And some of these workouts with the Cleveland Charge and things along those lines. The other thing to take into account is that, you know, because it is a pretty condensed schedule here immediately after the All Star break and then March, everybody knows what March is for this team most seasons. There’s not going to be a lot of practice, legitimate full on practice days for the Cavs. Practice days are probably going to turn into recovery days and shoot arounds might turn into voluntary Shoot arounds the way that it’s been for a majority of the last couple of months. So he’s gonna have to find, like, other avenues to get some of that on court work so that the medical staff, the training staff, and Max himself is comfortable with how his foot continues to progress and how his foot is feeling before he finally gets that green light. It’s hard to see it happening in February at this point. I think more likely it’s sometime in March when that time is. Is it the first week of March? Is it mid March? Is it end of March? It’s hard to say because when it felt like Max, if we’re talking about a month and a half ago, when it felt like Max was making the progress that he needed and you could see him ramping up his workouts and you can see him increasing the physical activity. All of those things were good signs until they weren’t. And this is a very, very tricky injury. We talked about that from the very beginning. So I do think that they are expressing even more caution than they did originally because of the nature of the injury, because there was already a setback in his recovery and. And like, I don’t think there’s as much of a necessity to rush him back. You know, if this was a team that was floundering around 7 seed, 8th seed in the Eastern Conference, and they didn’t have these shiny new upgrades to the roster, maybe there are people inside the organization saying, like, hey, we need Max back a little bit sooner. But given everything that has happened, including where the Cavs are in the standings, including the fact that the depth chart has been boosted since this injury happened, I just think the Cavs feel like, okay, as cautious as we can possibly be without frustrating the hell out of Max. Let’s try and walk that line as best we can.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. Yeah. And obviously the frustration mounts. Obviously, Max Druce is one of those guys that would want to be out there even if he’s at 50%. So it’s important to remember that the Cavs had to pull him back from himself during those workouts. What I’m thinking, Chris, now with Max, and kind of looking back to last year with the ankle injury that had him out for the first 27 games of the season, now there’s just 27 games. We’ve talked so much about the ramp up process. We’ve talked about the potential for Jayson Tatum to make a return and how many games he would need for that to be viable. Right. To make him feel comfortable in a lineup where he’s still one of the most impactful players. That’s not necessarily going to be the case for Max Strus, and it’s going to be weird for him, especially as he was acquired, to come on this team, be a starter, be a leader or all these different things. Now you added two more leaders and Dennis Schröder and James Harden. I’m starting to get to the point, Chris, where I’m contemplating if it’s better off, especially for this Cleveland Cavaliers team that is already going to be, I don’t want to use the word struggling, but trying to quickly reintegrate Evan Mobley and Dean Wade while also acclimating Dennis Shooter, James Harden, Keon Ellis. And as hard as Kenny Atkinson is going to be working to find combinations, to find lineups, to find two man, three man, four man, five man groupings that work together, you’re going to tell me that you’re going to add Max Drusen 10, 15 games left in the season maybe, and that’s not good to throw a knife into what has already been worked. So I think I’m at the point where if Max Droost doesn’t at least get 15 games left into the season when he’s getting back into the flow of especially getting contact, but being around this Cavs team, it might be better off for the Cleveland Cavaliers if he sat out the rest of the season. What do you think?
Chris Fedor: I think the benefit that Max has is that he has been here. Kenny knows how to use him. Kenny knows who he fits well with. Look, there are different pieces and Max will have to find a way to get comfortable in a James Harden type ecosystem. James is going to be responsible for a lot of the ball handling, a lot of the playmaking, a lot of the pick and roll stuff. It doesn’t mean that it’s a heliocentric offense. It doesn’t mean that it’s James Harden’s team necessarily. But that is a big piece that this organization had to try and integrate on the fly. And it’s something that Jarrett Allen has to learn how to play with James Harden and Evan Mobley has to learn how to play with James Harden. And Donovan Mitchell still has to learn how to play with James Harden. It’s just different. I think it’s going to work because James makes everybody around him better. But Max will have to learn how to play alongside James Harden. Max will have to learn how to play alongside Dennis Schröder. Max will have to learn how to play alongside Keon Ellis. He’ll probably have to Learn how to play alongside this new version of Jaylon Tyson. Right. So there are some new intricacies for Max to get a grasp of, try and understand, figure out his fit the best that he can. But I think the fact that he is not a new piece, I think that helps this process. I think it helps Kenny Atkinson, I think it helps Max as well. If this was somebody that the Cavs traded for at the deadline and he got hurt in his first practice before ever playing with the team, then it’s a different kind of situation. But there are combinations that, that Kenny can dig into from last year that were effective, that can make Max comfortable so he can lean into some of those. There are some three man lineups, four man lineups that Kenny has data from that Kenny saw be successful, whether it was in the regular season or in the playoffs, that it helps speed up this process in terms of reintegrating Max as, as best they can. And the other thing is, and we talked about this on a previous podcast, it’s also up to Max to understand, hey, like, the situation that I’m going to be in, the role that I’m going to have, the opportunities that I’m going to get, the minutes that I’m going to play, the shot attempts that I’m going to get, all that stuff is going to be different and he’s going to have to get used to that. But I think he’s somebody who can because I think he’s about the right things. And as much as he’s a competitor, as much as he wants to play, as much as he’s going to want minutes, as much as he probably believes that the starting job was his and he didn’t do anything to lose it, he’s all about championships, he’s all about winning at the highest level. And I think when you have a guy that has bought in completely and believes in what’s going on here, and on top of that, like, can see evidence of what’s going on here and has been observing it through a different lens, I think that’s going to help Max too. I’m not saying that it’s going to be seamless. There are going to be hiccups, there are going to be growing pains, there are going to have to be adjustments made, but the fact that he’s been here and Kenny knows how to use him and Max knows how to play within this system and be successful within the system, it helps him in this process.
Ethan Sands: I agree with you. And the only thing that I’m going to push back on slightly is. I think this is contingent on Max Struse is at the same kind of caliber that he was last year. Because if Max Stru takes a step back, if he’s not able to do the off ball movement, the cutting, the spacing that he has, obviously the gravity is going to be there out of pure respect for his volume and his shot making ability. But, but all the other things that he’s done, especially on the defensive end as well, if he’s not able to wall up and stay in front of his man, I think it would make things more difficult. So obviously this is a conversation that we’ll have to wait and see. And again, the biggest portion of this is the Cavs could have moved off of Max Stru’s contract if they saw that he wasn’t going to fit with this roster if they thought that he wasn’t going to make it back in time for a playoff run. So while I don’t necessarily think it would be the best thing for him to come back, I also can see that the Cavs might utilize him in a different role in a different way. Especially if he can get back to his old form or even just slightly lower than that. It just depends on how much of a dip there is.
Chris Fedor: And here’s the thing. If he can’t be effective, if, if he can’t be something close enough to the Max truce that, that the Cavs have gotten for the last couple of years, Kenny has other options that he can go to there. There is no demand from this organization about, hey, like, you have to play Max Streuss. If Max isn’t right and if he doesn’t have it and it’s just not working to the level that it needs to, then as harsh as it is, you just push them to the side and you elevate Keon Ellis. You give more minutes to Dean Wade, you give more minutes to Jalen Tyson. At some point, like you understand as an organization that it is finals or bust and the guys that help us the most to get to that point, they’re going to get the opportunities, they’re going to get the minutes, and heck, they’re going to stay on the roster. What did this organization do at the trade deadline? They’re like, hey, who are all the weak links, who are all the liabilities, who are all the negatives? Gone, gone, gone. So it’ll be the same thing when it comes to Max. Because this is about winning a championship and this is about making difficult decisions and this is about as delicate as it is Trying to set aside all the other ancillary factors that come into decision making and just reward the guys who deserve it the most, reward the guys who are playing the best, reward the guys who are being the most impactful. And if Max isn’t right, and Max can’t be the max or something close to the max of old, then Kenny can’t afford to just keep throwing him out there. And I think Max understands that and I think Kenny understands that, and I.
Ethan Sands: Think that’s probably the biggest decision, slash change that Kenny Atkinson is going to have to make. Overarching, not necessarily Max Strust, but being willing to make adjustments on the fly in the postseason and going away from key players, especially if they’re not playing to the standard that they had set for themselves in the season they last year, we didn’t necessarily see that in the playoffs. We saw Kenny Atkinson continue to turn out this starter unit rather than going to the depth pieces. And I think he can’t afford to do that with this level of team, especially with the depth that they’ve created and that they’ve added to the roster four times like these. In case things go wrong.
Chris Fedor: There is a trust that Kenny has built with some of the guys toward the back end of the roster, some of the quote unquote depth pieces that have become more mainstays. That trust is, is different today than, than what it was in year one of Kenny Atkinson. I think there were some times where he was hesitant because he was thinking to himself, okay, like, who else am I gonna go to? Like, yeah, I have these options on the roster, but I just haven’t established anything with them, especially a level of trust. Now because of everything that the Cavs have gone through, all the different lineups that they’ve had to use, all the different injuries that they’ve had to navigate, Kenny has been able to build that level of trust deeper into the roster so that if he gets into a first round playoff series that is a little bit more competitive than maybe he would like, maybe fans would like, he won’t be as hesitant to do those kinds of things because he’s like, hey, I’ve seen it be successful. Like, this guy has come in in certain situations and he’s brought the energy that we need, or this guy has come in in certain situations and he’s been able to bring the extra ball handling that we may need in whatever situation it may call for. Or hey, like, I’ve gone to this guy at various points throughout the course of the season. It’s not Playoff level basketball, but it was competitive, there were stakes attached to it and he brought an element of spacing, shooting, something like that. His, his ability to trust his depth more this year and develop the back end of his bench. I think it’s going to lead to more of the Rick Carlisle style that we saw last year with the Indiana Pacers where he just dusted off Thomas Bryant or he just dusted off, you know, Tony Bradley because like, hey, we’re playing against the Cavs, we need a little bit more size. I know Tony Bradley, we didn’t use you much in the first round, but go out there and do your thing. And I think Kenny has established that level of comfort and that level of trust with certain guys throughout the course of the roster that makes it easier for him to make those more difficult decisions.
Ethan Sands: I hope you’re right. And that’s mainly because I remember last season when Kenny Atkinson was like, inevitably rotations shrink during the playoffs and we all were like, you have talked and praised your depth all season. Why would that happen? And then we look across in Indiana and Rick Carlisle, as you mentioned, we’re going to everybody that were necessary in moments that would help them win and be successful. And I think you’re absolutely right about the trust value being grown after the first season, obviously with more time around them. But I think under the pressure of the playoffs, I don’t want to see the same situation happen that did last year. And that kind of goes into the next question from our subtexters coming from Jeff in Friday Harbor Washington because of the combinations that the Cavs are going to try and and utilized. So here’s that question from Jeff. He says, hey guys, as Kenny Atkinson works through some different rotations in the next few weeks, are there any in particular you are looking forward to seeing? I’m curious what you think some of their more potent lineups might be and what you are excited to see. And obviously Chris, we talked about it briefly there. Even if there’s a 10 man rotation that Kenny Atkinson leans on or a nine man rotation or whatever fans want to think is going to happen in the playoffs, I think still being willing to go to some of these players even in spurts from growing lineups and being able to plug in play the lineups that in combinations that he’s built over the regular season is going to be incredibly important in the postseason. And I think that’s why this last 27 game stretch when you have James Harden, Keon Ellis, Dennis Schröder available, Dean Wade and Evan Mobley available to you to try and mix and match and see what works. And to Jeff’s question, I think that is the most important part, being able to try and willing to try new things. And I asked Kenny Atkinson after practice today about if there was a goal for them to get a certain seed right and how that would impact their playoff seeding and stuff like that. And he was more like, we’re just trying to figure things out and grow and get to where we need to be. So we’re peaking. And that necessarily to me meant lineups. So Donovan Mitchell, James Harden, Evan Moley, Dean Wade, Jarrett Allen, Jalen Tyson. They kind of solidified themselves as the top six guys of this roster. And I feel like I want to know as much as Jeff does from you, Chris, who do you think could add themselves into these lineups? And what lineups are you especially excited to see?
Chris Fedor: Well, I think the first lineup question is who starts? Is it going to be Jaylon Tyson? Is it going to be Dean Wade? We know it’s Harden, we know it’s Donovan. We know it’s going to be Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen, but who’s the fifth guy? Is it Dean Wade? Is it Jaylon Tyson? What does Kenny feel like he needs most around those four players? We can’t call them the core four, but there’s gotta be some kind of thing that we can use so that everybody knows that we’re talking about those guys. Maybe it’s a work in progress. The other thing that I’m going to be interested to see, and I think Kenny’s going to try and figure this out as best he can. Remember earlier this year, he kept splitting up Donovan and Evan Mobley. He felt like he had to. There were a lot of circumstances that were tied to that, but there was also the idea of, hey, Evan, chains are off, spread your wings. I wonder if Kenny is going to just say, you know what? James is here, James is here. We don’t need to split up Donovan and Evan the same. Same kind of way. We can have both of those guys off the floor at the same time and still run a functional high level offense because of James and Jarrett Allen together, that gives us a foundation to build on. So I’m wondering, and this is just me thinking out loud, yes, there is intrigue that this organization has for what James Harden can do for Evan Mobley and how Evan’s role can kind of expand offensively and go from a majority of popping after picking and a little bit more rolling because that works better with James Harden’s. Skill set. So, yes, there is that intrigue and I think there’s excitement too. But I think there’s also a thought that has developed here that, hey, James and Jarrett together is really good. Look what that did for our offense. Look what that did for Jarrett Allen and look what that did for James Harden. Trying to get comfortable within this offense in the early stages. I’m wondering, just thinking out loud if Kenny is going to remember last year it was Jarrett Allen, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell. I’m wondering if he’s going to default back to something like that and flip it a little bit and say, all right, when Donovan comes off the the floor at the 7 minute mark of the first quarter because we’re going to stagger him and we like that particular rotation for Donovan. Does Evan come off the floor too and just let the James Harden, Jarrett Allen thing be the focal point of the offense and then when it’s the end of the first quarter and you’re going into the second quarter, it’s late in the first quarter, something like that, however Kenny wants to do it, say, all right, Evan, go back out there with Donovan Mitchell. You played your best basketball basically of your entire life. When we matched your minutes specifically with Donovan Mitchell. And this whole idea of spread your wings, give you the freedom, unshackled touches, usage, shot attempts and stuff like that, we’re no longer thinking that we’re no longer in that mindset. It’s about trying to win a championship. So I’m wondering if, if Kenny is going to go back to that and see if he puts those two guys together specifically to try and bring out the Evan that so many people expected at the beginning of the year. Plus, like, I don’t think there’s any thought in Kenny’s mind because James is here because he has a backup point guard and Dennis Schröder that he trusts to run the offense. I don’t think there’s a thought that Kenny has of. For the most part, we need to keep one of Donovan or Evan on the floor almost at all times. I think there was some of that kind of thought, especially early in the season. Now it started to evolve a little bit away from that and the health of Darius Garland at one point played into that. Other factors certainly played into that as well. But beyond the starting lineup thing, it’s what are those little combinations that Kenny is going to go to and Kenny is going to find as this season continues to progress? Those are the things that I’m going.
Ethan Sands: To be looking for so it’s interesting you say that Chris, because Donovan Mitchell after practice today already kind of alluded to that fact and talking about getting back to the staggering of minutes and the two man units of him with Evan and Jarrett with James Harden. Because even in the three games with James Harden here, he is logged in his most minutes alongside Jarrett Allen, 93 minutes in that two man pairing owns a plus 7.9 net rating per 100 possessions which is really good for just 93 minutes. And trying to figure out an offense together that also goes into the fact that Jarrett Allen has been playing otherworldly and has been compared in the locker room to Wilt Chamberlain. But the other portion of this is Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, as you mentioned, Chris have created a chemistry, a bond, a partnership that does not go unnoticed or unsaid. They’ve logged the most minutes together this season, 1094 and last year 1718. So there’s a dynamic of these two being able to pair together. And obviously this might be the easiest answer because of how the Cavs have staggered their lineups dating back to Darius Garland having a pairing with Jarrett Allen as well. But I think the interesting part about this, Chris and I wrote about this for the website today is the two big pairings, the two non shooter pairings where Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley are side by side when both or either James Harden or Donovan Mitchell are on the floor with them. And I think that becomes most intriguing based on whether or not Kenny Atkinson is going to utilize that as a closing unit. We know that if the Cavs have a lead that is likely to be the case because Kenny Atkinson likes having a defensive approach. But when the Cavs are trailing in these high profile games, obviously OKC coming up, New York coming out, you get to test whether or not and see whether or not Kenny Atkinson will rely on this two big lineup in closing minutes because Jarrett Allen has played so well over the last seven games with Evan Mobley being out. How does Evan Mobley reintegrate with James Harden with Jarrett Allen playing to that caliber and obviously next to Donovan Mitchell? So there’s obviously these different portions of this and I feel like these two man pairings might be the easy answer. But the two lineups that I’m very intrigued to see next to each other with the new acquisitions Jaylon Tyson and Keone Ellis potentially playing next to each other, how that works on the defensive end, having three point shooting, who Kenny Atkinson puts around him, I would not be surprised if Sam Merrill can gets thrown in this group as well, and then the other one for me is Donovan Mitchell getting paired with Dennis Schröder, because we talked about it all season, that Donovan Mitchell is better suited when he has a true point guard, someone who could take away some of the ball handling duties. And also more importantly, probably getting downhill and creating from the painted area the drive kick swing scenario for Kenny Atkinson. And I think Dennis Shooter was the ideal fit for that matchup. And Kenny Atkinson has talked about that pairing a little bit as well. So sure, we talked about the two big pairing that is apparent. And Kenny Atkinson has had the question kind of holding over his head since he was here in 2024 for his introductory press conference, can you get this to work? So that’s the biggest one for me. And then obviously the staggered minutes of James Harden and Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley and Donovan Mitchell, can they get back to an elite level of play? And then the two pairings that I mentioned that are more small but I feel like could be a lot of fun. And especially with how they match up.
Chris Fedor: Together, I just don’t think they need the two bigs as much as they did before because I just don’t think they need that same level of rim protection, that same level of paint protection, or that same level of erase mistakes. I think everybody can understand now, and I think everybody is willing to admit it now because all the emotions attached to Darius Garland for the time that he spent here in Cleveland, the fun that he brought to this organization, the understanding of what he meant to this turnaround, this franchise turnaround, I think there’s been enough time that has passed that people will finally admit that he was a complete nutter defensive liability. He was one of the worst defenders in the entire NBA. And that wasn’t just a one year thing. He has never once throughout the course of his career been considered a statistical plus defender. Not once. Doesn’t matter what metric you look at. So I just don’t think part of the reason behind the Jarrett Allen, Evan Mobley thing is that, hey, if there’s a scenario where the undersized backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland can survive defensively, not thrive, but survive defensively, it’s alongside Dean Wade on the perimeter, or Isaac Okoro on the perimeter, or somebody that looks like Jaylon Tyson on the perimeter, or the competitiveness and the toughness of Max Struse on the perimeter with two elite rim protectors, two elite defensive anchors, two elite pink fortresses, but with James Harden, you don’t need that same level of protection. You don’t need that same level of erase the mistakes defensively. And this isn’t to say that he’s defensive player of the year, Marcus Smart or Dyson Daniels or any of those guys out on the perimeter. There are times where he is going to get blown by. There are times where he’s going to be ball watching. There are times where fans are going to be like, yo, dude, move your feet, like, shuffle one way or the other. There are going to be times. But you can’t bully him the same kind of way. You can’t just like set a screen, expect him to switch and then exploit that mismatch over and over and over again. You’re not in a situation defensively where you feel like you’re compromised just by one action. And that was the feeling with Darius Garland. One action, one screen, one mismatch. And Evan Mobley’s like, I gotta leave my guy. Or Jarrett Allen’s like, you know what? I gotta give up my assignment because I gotta go protect Darius. I gotta go help. James doesn’t need that same level of protection, and that’s not to say that he’s an elite defender, but he just doesn’t need that same level of protection. So I’m wondering if the Cavs are going to get enough offensively. Like, there is some spacing stuff that still exists with Evan and Jarrett. There is some floor congestion that still exists with Evan and Jarrett because they want to occupy the same space, because they’re still comfortable in those same spaces. So are the Cavs going to get enough of that pairing offensively to justify going back to them over and over and over again? And I’m just wondering if the way that Jarrett has thrived without Evan as the one big and how his role has expanded offensively and how he’s become more involved offensively and how he’s thrived as that one big offensively. I’m just wondering if Kenny feels like, hey, less too big stuff together, Mike. More of those two guys separated from each other. And look, if it’s closing time, Evan’s probably still going to get the nod over Jarrett. I think there’s still a little bit more trust in Evan as an offensive player than there is in Jarrett in terms of decision making, in terms of passing, maybe even in terms of shooting beyond 15ft. So I think there are some things that that Kenny has to work through when it comes to that. But I do wonder if he’s going to side more towards, you know, we don’t need the two bigs as much as maybe we Once did.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And that would be understandable, right? Because we understand where Jarrett Allen has been perceived earlier into the season, Kenny Agus had admitted it. I can’t remember if it was at home or on the road, but like he said that this is a different version of Jarrett Allen. This is a player that he had when he was a rookie and he said that he could have his jersey retired in Brooklyn, and yet he still didn’t see this coming, didn’t see this version of Jarrett Allen. Also, him admitting that maybe he has said that he wanted to empower the bigs, feed the bigs, give the bigs the ball. That was a lot to do with Evan Mobley. It was not as much to do with Jarrett Allen. And now we’re seeing for the first time last week, Jarrett Allen got an ATO ran for him. There’s 27 games left in the season and he was as far back as you want to say him still a member of the Core 4 before it got broken up. And yet Kenny Atkinson did not rely on him as such. And I think Kenny Atkinson is starting to get to the realization of, hey, this guy, if given the ball, if given the chance to be engaged both offensively and defensively, can be exactly what I thought he could be all those years ago. I just have to tap into it, I have to press the right button and I have to find again, here we go again, lineups, combinations that make him best, help him put him in the right positions to be successful. And I think James Harden and that kind of collaboration that has already begun, the pick and roll that allows more spacing around them as well, has already bore fruit slightly. And we want to see more because again, this is all about execution. We can talk about the lineups that are going to be put together. We can talk about the roster construction, the depth, probably the best for this team since LeBron James was here. But if they cannot execute, then that doesn’t mean anything. We’ve seen how much on paper means 64 wins, number one seed, second round execution is just as important, if not even more important, Chris, than how the Cavs look on paper coming into the playoffs and coming into the last 27 games of the season.
Chris Fedor: And here’s the other thing to think about here. Just go back to that Denver game, the Denver game where the Cavs out executed the Denver Nuggets, one of the best executing teams in the final couple minutes of any basketball game. And the Cavs scored on seven of their eight final possessions. How involved with Jarrett Allen? Extremely involved. So like, if you’re Kenny and you’re saying to yourself, this fourth quarter is going to come down to offensive execution, where we’re just going to do what we do at a higher level than everybody else, they might need Jarrett to do that. Jarrett is a better screen setter than Evan Mobley. Jarrett is a better roller than Evan Mobley. Jarrett might be a better vertical spacer than Evan, and Jarrett has already built a natural chemistry with James Harden. And in late game situations, you’re going to want Harden to have the ball. You’re going to want Donovan to have the ball. You want. You want to execute at the level that the Cavs executed late in the game against the Denver Nuggets. And this was to no fault of Evan Mobley, but he wasn’t there. It was Jarrett Allen as the big. It was Jarrett Allen as the lob threat. It was Jarrett Allen as a playmaker after getting passes. It was Jarrett Allen as the screen setter. So, like, the best version that we have seen of the Cavs, to me, in terms of execution, in terms of looking like the prolific offense that they were last year when they were setting records, it was with Jarrett Allen heavily involved. And it’s like, after what the Cavs just went through right before the All Star break, how could you just say to yourself, no, Jarrett, you can’t close games because Evan’s back healthy.
Ethan Sands: You know what I’m saying?
Chris Fedor: Like, there is a place, there is a need for the things that Jarrett Allen brings to the table, especially in late game situations. Think about the amount of space that he creates for James Harden just with his screen setting alone. Think about the amount of space that he creates for Donovan Mitchell just with his screen setting alone. And then, oh, if you forget about him or if you’re a little bit higher up as a big, guess what happens. James throws the lob. Guess who’s on the receiving end of it. Jarrett Allen. So it’s like there’s so many little things that he does that I just don’t think Kenny can get to a situation where he’s like, sorry, man, you’re no longer finishing games. Like, it’s back to the beginning of the season where you were getting three minutes in the fourth quarter. Sorry, man, we need more speed. We need more athleticism. We need more switchiness. All those different things that Kenny was saying at the beginning of the year when he was trying to justify the whole Jarrett Allen decision, I just don’t think he can go back that way. Jarrett’s been too impactful. I think he’s been too important to their late game success. Sacramento was the same thing. It shouldn’t have come down to that, but it did. And he was once again a big part of that.
Ethan Sands: I think it would be counterintuitive if Kenny Atkinson saw this Runway where Jarrett Allen had the second most points per game, was averaging a double double over a seven game span. The Cavs are six and one over the span without Evan Mobley. They’re nine of their last 10 wins. Right. And yet you would kind of turn around and be like, well, Evan Mobley is Evan Mobley.
Chris Fedor: We want to go small instead.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. And not to say that Evan Mobley doesn’t deserve that. Right. He doesn’t have that built up equity. But there’s also what has been unearthed that needs to be continuously tapped into and the other portion of this to just project forward slightly. Chris, obviously me and Jimmy talked about this on a recent podcast. There are three teams ahead of the Cleveland Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference that there will likely have to play at least one of them, maybe two of them, before getting to the Eastern Conference finals. And again, those teams have big men now that would challenge Evan Mobley. That have been problems for Evan Mobley throughout his entire career. How they attack him on the offensive end. The Boston Celtics, they went and got Nikola Vucevich. And especially if Jayson Tatum makes a return, how difficult will it be to defend Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown and Nicole Zavucevic on the floor at the same time? Especially if they’re putting Evan Mobley into these actions and getting him away from the rim. Right. The Detroit Pistons, Jalen Durant and Isaiah Stewart, physically imposing Biggs. Yeah. You know who handles that a little bit better than Evan Mobley? Jarrett Allen. Then you talk about the New York Knicks, Mitchell Robinson. Everybody’s going to look back to years ago where Mitchell Robinson was bullying Jarrett Allen. That’s not this version of Jarrett Allen. I’m not going to say that Mitchell Robinson is going to get stopped, but Evan Mobley, Jarrett Allen need to be on the floor, maybe together to deter Mitchell Robinson when it comes to rebounding and also just helping each other out. But all that to say I think Jarrett Allen has earned the respect that maybe was kind of teetering within the organization and with Keddie Atkinson. And it’s kind of reinvigorated itself to the point where we’re legitimately having conversations of should Jarrett Allen be a closer rather than Evan Mobley at times. And this is obviously matchup dependent based on the score, based on how the game’s going based on how Jarrett Allen and or Evan Mobley or James Harden or Donovan or anybody on the roster are playing in each game. And it’s about again, going back to what I said earlier, Kenny Atkinson being willing to push the right button, to be willing to go against the Grant, to go against something that you have done all season. And I think that is the biggest test for Kenny. Even though we talk about the re acclimation of these players, the integration of new pieces, I think the hardest part is making in game decisions on the fly. The that might not necessarily go with what he had believed coming into the season or coming in to the final third of this season.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think the other thing is that the expectations have been reset and the goals aren’t what they once were. The Cavs, at one point Ethan felt like they needed to get Evan to a certain status in order to win a championship. I just don’t think they feel like they need that anymore. Would it be helpful? Of course. Course. Absolutely. But is that the difference between hanging a banner and not hanging a banner? Not the same way that it was because you have a legitimate ready sidekick in James Harden. You have a legitimate playoff ready co star in James Harden. They don’t need second team all NBA Evan Mobley. They don’t need first time all star Evan Mobley in order to win a championship. They don’t need him to be the guy for them to win a champion. They don’t need him to be offensive focal point to win a championship. So that’s the other thing to me that has changed internally for this organization is what their goals were, what their focus was and what their expectations were and what they felt like they needed from Evan. As I’ve talked about on a previous podcast a number of different times, to me, the trade deadline was an admission that Evan’s just not ready. He’s not ready to be that level of star. He’s not. He’s not ready. He’s not as advanced offensively to be that kind of offensive weapon. But he doesn’t have to be anymore. Now he can be the cozy number three option or the number four option, depending on time, score, situation, matchup, circumstance, things along those lines. Before, if, if they didn’t have James Harden, if they didn’t trade for James Harden, you would say that Evan Mobley, more so than anybody else, controls how far this team goes in the playoffs. He’s the barometer for them. Evan Mobley, more so than anybody else, controls whether this organization hangs another banner and maybe down the road that becomes true again. Maybe down the road it does. Maybe he does get to a different kind of level. And maybe the other pieces in this organization change because we’ve seen how quickly things can change. But that doesn’t have to be this year. It no longer has to be this year because of the arrival of James Harden. Because of that Ethan, I don’t think Kenny’s gonna force it the way that he was forcing it at the beginning of the year. I don’t think he’s gonna feel like he needs to force feed Evan to make him more of an offensive focal point. I don’t think it’s going to look as to use their own terms at times as clunky because you’re just trying to play within the rhythm of the game rather than forcing something that just isn’t or something that isn’t ready to.
Ethan Sands: Be all right, Chris, I appreciate you hopping on with me today. I hope you enjoyed your all Star break, but it’s time to get back to business. And of course, as I mentioned, the Cleveland Cavaliers kick off with a back to back as part of that a 5, 7 game stretch. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your weekly hey Chris questions. You want to get a shout out like the guys did on today’s episode? That’s the only way to do so. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.