COLUMBUS, Ohio -- On this episode of Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Stefan Krajisnik and Andrew Gillis discuss [Ohio State’s](https://www.cleveland.com/osu/) seven defensive players invited to the NFL Combine.
Among the things talked about:
* Caden Curry and Kayden McDonad’s draft stock
* Are Arvell Reese and Sonny Styles the best OSU linebacker duo ever?
* Can Davison Igbinosun and Lorenzo Styles Jr. help themselves in Indianapolis?
* How high could Caleb Downs realistically go?
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_Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings._
_Stephen Means (00:02.686)_
_Welcome back to Buckeye Talk. I am Stephen Means, that’s Tafan Kreisnick and that is Andrew Gillis. is day two of our NFL Combine preview. We talked about the four players on offense yesterday. Today we’ll talk about the seven guys on defense. Kaden Curry, Kaden McDonald, Sonny Stiles, Arvo Reiss, Davison Ibnose and Lorenzo Stiles and Caleb Downs. And I wanna start up front and to talk about..._
_Cade McDonald and Tylee Williams first. Last year, Tylee Williams became the fourth defensive player since Ryan Day became the head coach to be a first round draft pick. He went 28th to the Lions. The other three were in Ryan Day’s first draft class. And so I think you maybe give more credit to that to Urban Meyer than Ryan Day simply because a lot of those guys were pretty established. And at the end of their careers, Chaishan went to Jeff Okuda went three, Damon Arnett went 19th._
_Here’s how I want to talk about Cade McDonald, because it felt like last year, Stephon, we went into the draft going, yo, Tylek Williams has a ball, he’s going to, if he cooks here, he’s going be a first round draft pick. Here’s my question. Who was more day one solidified going in to the NFL combine? Tylek Williams in 2025, or Cade McDonald going into it this year?_
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:21.297)_
_I think I’d say Tileak. Um, I think I have fewer concerns kind of about the size factor of it. What’s funny is Kayden and Tileak are actually kind of listed at the same height and weight right now. I’m interested to see what Kayden is actually listed at. I think it’s probably going to be less than maybe what Ohio State listed at, but I don’t know. Maybe I could be wrong. Um, but I think because of the, the measurements, felt more confident in Kayden. Uh, sorry, uh, Tileak I should say. So I lean, lean toward Tileak._
_Stephen Means (01:27.186)_
_Yeah._
_Stephen Means (01:31.878)_
_Yeah. Lying._
_Stephen Means (01:46.621)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (01:50.44)_
_Gillis right now the mock draft database consensus. Peter Woods is the number one defensive tackle. He’s 16th overall. Caleb Banks is 24th overall, second amongst defensive tackles and then Caleb Mcdowell. He’s third. He’s third amongst defensive tackles and 29th overall. And a consensus mock has him going 28th to the Houston Texans. are you comparing him and Ty League? Huh?_
_Andrew Gillis (02:12.846)_
_I’m just, that’s what the Texans need. Another insane defensive lineman._
_Stephen Means (02:19.496)_
_It’s like, oh, CJ Stroud completely just kind of like just went backwards last year. How do we double down on it? Making sure he has to score even less points to win football games. What do you think comparing Cade MacDonald and Tylee Williams in terms of what they could show at the combine in their respective years, who like maybe was a little bit more solidified? And I don’t know. Are you confident that Cade MacDonald is a first round draft pick? guess is the question if you’re in alignment with Stefan Christich or does he need to punctuate that this week?_
_Andrew Gillis (02:48.842)_
_He needs to punctuate that. Ty Leek, the value with Ty Leek was that Ty Leek Williams could play whatever you needed him to play. Like, Ty Leek Williams could play..._
_He could play nose. He did that in 2023. Right? We saw him we saw him play nose because Mike Hall was here and he was the three tech and and Ty leak was the guy and it felt like every week Jim Knowles in 2023 was like, you guys have no idea how rare this kind of is for him to be doing this type of stuff._
_Stephen Means (03:15.111)_
_Hmm._
_Stephen Means (03:30.152)_
_Hmm._
_Andrew Gillis (03:34.764)_
_Then he could play three or he could play three tech. He could play nose. He could play. He could be played three tech for the title team. He could move around. like Stefan said, he was listed at six, three, three, thirty four, thirty two inch arms. Cade McDonald, six, three, three, twenty six. I will see what the combine shows us. I think for as much as people want to talk about height, I think arm length is probably going to be pretty big for Cade McDonald as well, because._
_You know, if you show up at 6′1 and three quarters, you’re going to need some longer arms maybe to compensate for that just because, you know, you’re not that type of defensive lineman that, you know, Aaron Donald is. But Tyler Williams also had a banger combine last year too, right? Like, Tyler Williams, when he was at the combine, he was really, really good._
_He was I remember there was a clip that kind of circulated of him doing those like bag drills and people just going, I didn’t think he could be this fluid. So the thing with Caden, the reason I guess why I’m not sold on him being a first round pick there, I am sold on Caden McDonald. I’m just not sold on top 32 because I don’t know if that versatility is there for him to play three technique. Like, I don’t know if he has that, you know, definite in his range of outcomes for a team. I think some teams are probably going to look at him and say._
_We need a nose and we need a guy to play one and we can plug him in the middle and that is great ad. I just don’t know if that versatility is there. So he’s got a big week. He’s gonna need to show up well. think he’s gonna need to, I’m very interested about the height weight type thing, but arm length to me is gonna matter too._
_Stephen Means (05:18.775)_
_448 snaps, he had 65 tackles. That’s three less tackles in Caleb downs. And it’s four less tackles in the Arval Reiss, two dudes who are gonna hear their names in the top eight picks. Nine TFLs, which was, I think, fourth on the team. Yeah, it was behind Kaden Curry, who we’ll talk about here in a second. Kenyatta Jackson in the Arval Reiss. He had three sacks, he had 14 pressures._
_I Ty Leakes is a little more matter of fact than Caden McDonald is I’m going to go the other way with that because Ty Leake was very, very good, but it felt like we knew that and it felt like people within the Big Ten knew that. But I wasn’t all the way sure if the rest of the country knew that and how much of a freak he was for someone who was that size because he had shown up on the freak list a couple of times. And then all of a sudden it’s like,_
_with like every drill he did at the combine. then unfortunately, he popped a hammy run in the 40 and his pro day so he couldn’t build on it even more. But I think he had already done enough. I think I think Tally Williams is combine made you go rewatch his film and go, what the heck? Because you wanted to you saw what he did and then you wanted to see what he did with it, like on the football field. Caden McDonald’s numbers and his film where it felt like teams just couldn’t run the ball. And it’s solely because of him._
_I wonder if there are maybe some scouts who are heading into Indianapolis. I want to know why he was able to do that. And if they leave the combine, we’re all of a sudden like, OK, that’s why he was able to do that, because he’s a freak and tightly Williams called him a mini man. He wasn’t lying at all. So I think. I think we all were anticipating, hey, Tyler is going to use the weekend to become a first round traffic. I think Caden would now might already be that and he’s going to use this combine to go,_
_That’s why you only had three less tacos and Caleb Downs. That’s why nobody could run the ball on Ohio State. That’s why Caleb Downs and Sonny Styles were able to get to the ball so quickly because it was just like nobody there to block because they were all being eaten up by Caden McDowell. I think he’s probably he’s more intriguing than me than some of the first rounders they’re going to have simply because I just everybody else seems like a well no duh. This is where they’re going to go on the draft. He’s the one where it’s like I can’t explain to you right now._
_Stephen Means (07:41.424)_
_Why Caden McDonald was able to do what he was doing this past year because you guys are talking about it. He doesn’t have the prototypical size. He’s listed at the same size as Tylee Williams, but we’ve also next to Caden McDonald. He’s like six foot tall and 340 pounds with like. Dr. T Rex arms and yet somehow that dude. Was the soul. He was the cog that made everything else go in terms of Ohio State’s ability to stop the run last year. Wanna play a game with both of you?_
_The game is called higher or lower. And we’re going to circle it around. Caden Curry, who this past year had 66 tackles, 16 and half tackles for loss and 11 sacks along with 46 pressures. He led the team in TFL sacks and pressures._
_There have been six defensive ends drafted by Larry. Larry Johnson had drafted since Ryan Day became his boss and we’re going play a game of higher or lower. See if we think Kaden Curry is going to go higher or lower than all those guys. We’ll start with Chase Young in 2020. He’s the highest of the group. He went number two higher or lower._
_Stefan Krajisnik (08:55.92)_
_Lower._
_Andrew Gillis (08:57.43)_
_be really good if I said higher lower_
_Stephen Means (09:01.061)_
_You can, you’d be wrong, but you can say it. You can say it everyone._
_Andrew Gillis (09:02.958)_
_It’s not gonna be the number one pick. Sorry, Vegas Raiders._
_Stephen Means (09:08.199)_
_no, they get a quarterback instead. Next up, this is not next in line, like in terms of in the road, this is just where they ended up going. Twenty twenty five is the next highest defensive end. That’s JT Tui Maloal. He went at forty five higher or lower._
_Stefan Krajisnik (09:24.943)_
_lower._
_Stephen Means (09:26.567)_
_OK, so we’re moving away from day two. Well, at least out of the second round, 2023 is the next highest at Zach Harrison, who went 75th to the Atlanta Falcons, and we have since turned him into a defensive tackle, which is the right move by the Falcons, but higher or lower._
_Stefan Krajisnik (09:43.63)_
_lower._
_Stephen Means (09:44.903)_
_Okay, so no day two for Kaden Curry, who had more sacks than everybody we’ve named except for Chase Young so far. Jack Sawyer, last year went 123 to the Pittsburgh Steelers, higher or lower._
_Andrew Gillis (09:59.65)_
_lower._
_Stefan Krajisnik (10:00.433)_
_I’ll take higher. I was thinking, I was kind of thinking one twenties._
_Stephen Means (10:01.689)_
_Okay, so hold your._
_OK, so hold there. Andrew Gillis Tyree Smith is up next in 2022. He went 158 to the Seahawks. believe higher or lower._
_Andrew Gillis (10:16.258)_
_That’s a tough one. Because in my mind, I was thinking 155 to 165. That’s a tough one. So I guess by that math, I would have to say lower, but I think whatever the next guy is, is probably gonna be higher._
_Stephen Means (10:23.963)_
_Okay._
_Stephen Means (10:34.279)_
_Okay, the last one on the list is Jonathan Cooper, who in 2021 went 239, seven rounds in the market, so higher. Okay. So I’m assuming you have him fifth round, sixth round. That’s like your range for you._
_Andrew Gillis (10:39.5)_
_Go higher, yeah._
_Andrew Gillis (10:45.838)_
_I think fifth round is probably pretty fair for Kaiden._
_Stephen Means (10:51.577)_
_Okay, and Stefan, you had him going above Jack Sawyer who went in the fourth round. So I’m assuming your fourth round or higher. Why higher? Okay, why higher for you?_
_Stefan Krajisnik (10:59.599)_
_Yeah, probably fourth. I like the kind of what Gil’s was talking about with Tylee kind of some of the versatility. think Kate and Curry has some of that, right? I think we saw him, you know, line up inside a good bit. I’m not saying that an NFL team is going to turn him into a defensive tackle. Like you were talking about with Harrison, but I think there is some versatility there where you could move them around. And I do think that to some extent, NFL teams do still value production a bit. And if that’s the production that he put up,_
_in a year where he finally got his first opportunity to get, you know, consistent reps and playing time and be a starter. I think that’s going to stand out. I think that, you know, when you turn on some of the film and see the guys that he succeeded against, in terms of, you know, quarterbacks, right? Like we’ve talked about this before. Fernando’s not the fastest guy, but he’s, you elusive and can move around and Kate and Curry made life very difficult for him. Kate and Curry made life very difficult for Daman Williams, guy who can definitely move around._
_and escape the pocket and Kate and Curry had a field day when we were over in Seattle. So I just, I think there’s more, I just think that he didn’t get enough opportunities at Ohio state and that’s not necessarily his fault, right? Like we it’s well documented that JTT and, and Jack decided to return from the other season and all that came with that._
_But I think behind the scenes with Larry Johnson, Caden Curry was doing all the right things and when he got the opportunity, we saw it. And I think the motor that he plays with too, I think will stand out when teams kind of go through the tape. I made the comparison to Max Crosby just in terms of the effort with which Caden Curry plays where it just felt like._
_Every time a play was happening on the opposite side of the field and a tackle could be made, right? Like Caleb Downs makes a tackle five yards on the field and there’s Caden Curry coming in just in case, you know, someone breaks the tackle or the ball comes loose or whatever it be. Like he was all over the field. So I think the, the mix of versatility with production and then kind of the motor that he plays with, I think there’s going be an NFL team that sees him and says, we can take a shot early in the fourth round and make sure that he doesn’t drop. Cause I think I,_
_Stefan Krajisnik (13:06.993)_
_Gilis, I know you’re thinking more fifth or sixth. I think it’s gonna be more fourth or fifth. And if you’re a team in the fourth round that’s kind of looking for some pass rushers and you don’t wanna risk him falling to the fifth because you think between that pick and the next pick, he’s gonna be gone. I think a team might jump and be like, all right, 120 will take them instead of risking, trying to get them at 160._
_Stephen Means (13:22.609)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Andrew Gillis (13:28.652)_
_The, I guess the interesting maybe question that I would think about would be if Kenyatta Jackson declared higher or lower, Caden Curry._
_Stephen Means (13:41.454)_
_I mean, just from the physical makeup of him, like he’s like a star. Kenyatta Jackson’s physical makeup screams starting defensive end in the NFL for 10 years. And that’s just, but I think that’s an eye test thing. And I think there’s such an intriguing conversation because the more productive one isn’t the one you would take on draft day._
_Andrew Gillis (13:44.654)_
_I agree. Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (13:44.827)_
_Yeah._
_Andrew Gillis (13:52.002)_
_Yes. Yes._
_Andrew Gillis (14:04.77)_
_Yeah, and that’s why I brought that up because Jack Sawyer went, I mean, look, anything’s possible. He got drafted by Pittsburgh and he’s kind of like that outside linebacker now, which I just super did not think was going to be possible when went like when we watched him play. don’t think anybody looked at him and when he’s a 34 outside backer, like he’s that he’s that like and then he showed up to pro day and he looked real slim and I went, interesting. But_
_Stephen Means (14:34.567)_
_have a take on that, but continue._
_Andrew Gillis (14:35.682)_
_Jack Sawyer, Jack Sawyer was 6′4, 260 at the combine. Kaiden Curry is listed at Ohio State. Now again, some of those height weights team websites, not just, I’m not calling out Ohio State, I’m calling out college athletics, can be fudged a little bit. So we’ll see what, I think that’s gonna be big to see what Kaiden comes in at. Jack, there was an issue about his arm size and his arm length for playing at edge. So yeah, we’ll see what Kaiden comes in at._
_But I just, I wonder, and I think with Kayden, to Stefan’s point, I think Stefan’s not necessarily wrong to say there’s going to be a team that says, oh, like we got to draft this guy. had X-Men at Saks at Ohio State. He played at Ohio State for four years. I don’t think that that’s wrong. I just, I wonder if a team is going to go, hell man, it’s the fifth round. We’re sitting at 140. We’ve taken, you know, five players already._
_swing for the upside guy who played at, you know, James Madison, who’s got a higher upside, but you know, we think we can turn him into something rather than like a proven commodity._
_Stephen Means (15:46.386)_
_But even then, King Curry was on special teams the last three years. Like, kickoff. But like, he’s a defensive end and he’s running down on kickoff. That in itself tells me there’s some athleticism that’s not being tapped into. I love what you said there, Gillis, about, man, I could not have seen Jack Sawyer being like an outside linebacker in a three-four scheme. And then he showed up at pro day and he was slimmer._
_Andrew Gillis (15:49.492)_
_Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that matters, yeah._
_Andrew Gillis (15:56.046)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (16:15.975)_
_I think Ohio State. Scheme has not always. From an individual standpoint, they’ve had good defenses, but they have not always maximize the individual, especially at defensive end. And the reason why I think Jonathan Cooper being 239 is so intriguing to me. Jonathan Cooper went in the seventh round because he was an undersized defensive end. And then the Broncos moved him to outside linebacker, and for the last three years, he’s had eight and a half sacks, 10 and a half sacks and eight sacks._
_Baron Browning, we kept asking, can you please bring him off the edge? Can you please bring him off the edge? The Broncos brought him off the edge and he looked awesome at it. CJ Hicks, think is going to, for the rest of CJ Hicks’ football life, if CJ Hicks goes down to South Florida and he has like 12 sacks this year and it’s because they’re letting him come off the edge, I don’t know. mean, it depends on what know, Quay Roussault and everybody else is doing, but there will probably be some fans who are like, how come he couldn’t do that for us?_
_because they had him play a linebacker the entire time when he’s not an offball linebacker. How many times this year did we go, hey, how come our Varese isn’t rushing the passer anymore? How come he keeps dropping in coverage? How come Kaden Curry, who’s leading your team in sacks, keeps dropping? Now defensive ends drop and cover sometimes I get that, but it felt like it was a lot more often than it should have been._
_Jack Sawyer, to your point, when he showed up at that pro day, he looked like what he looked like coming out of high school. And then they put all that weight on him and turned him into a set in the edge run stopping defensive end, because that’s what the scheme called for. JT Tuyen Maloaw was hurt a lot this year for the Colts. I don’t know if we got to see what he was at that level. But like the athleticism was like never really on display at that rate outside of that Penn State game where he went nuclear. And then obviously by the time the playoff game around, when they finally let JT Tuyen Maloaw and Jack Sawyer loose,_
_They were sacking the quarterback every seven snaps. Kenyatta Jackson this past year in the middle of the season, we’re having conversations with him where he’s asking Matt Patricia, hey, can I not just be a cage guy and a run set edge setter? Can I like go get the quarterback? Can I use my pass rush moves? And then he started losing his pass rest removes. We were like, oh, so Kenyatta Jackson is awesome. And I miss the defensive end post Chase Young._
_Stephen Means (18:31.911)_
_and really post 2021 have turned into the just do your job guys in favor for other positions. And so because of that, Gillis could not see a world where like Jack Sor is an outside linebacker for the Pittsburgh Steelers making plays. And Gillis is not wrong. It’s just Gillis just spent two years watching Jack Sor and at no point was he doing that for Ohio State. So why would you expect him to do that? And the one time they tried to do it with Jack Sor when they tried to make him the Jack in 2022, it didn’t go well._
_And I’m thinking about that. What if Jonathan Cooper showed up right now at Ohio State with Matt Patricia?_
_Stephen Means (19:09.691)_
_He’d be what we think Quay Russo is going to be this year. Right. Like. What if Caden Curry were showing up right now? He’d be what we think Quay Russo is going to be this year. And I’m saying all that to say, I think Jonathan Cooper’s success in the NFL and what Caden Curry’s physical makeup is. Jonathan Cooper right now, according to football references, as Gillis said, we take all these with a grain of salt. Six, four, two fifty seven. Caden Curry played at six, three, two sixty this year._
_You don’t think wherever teams gonna draft Kaden Curry isn’t just gonna turn him into an outside linebacker in today’s NFL where there are more odd fronts. And so because of that, I don’t know if he’ll._
_You know what? I won’t be shocked if he like sneaks into the top 100. I’m not betting it right now. We’re going to do that pod closer to the draft day where we actually mark down where we think guys are going to go. I don’t know, man. If this dude goes to the combine and it’s like, oh, that’s why Ohio said had him doing things on special teams. Oh, because he’s like super fast and super strong and super agile. And all of a sudden you pair that with production. Could he be like one or five?_
_Maybe, I’m not saying 100 % it will be, but I agree with you, Gillis. The eye test says Kenyatta Jackson is going, like if they were coming out this year, the differential and where they got drafted would look a lot similar to what JT Toon Malo out and Jack Sawyer and where they got drafted where there’s like 80 picks between them._
_Stephen Means (20:43.696)_
_But what if Kaden Curry is awesome next week? And you pair that with the tape and you pair that with the overall product. He led them in pressures this year. He led them in every stat that any like normal person would find valuable when talking about defensive ends, pressures, TFL sacks. Kaden Curry led Ohio State in and he was amongst the top in the Big Ten in a year where the Big Ten actually had some pretty good defensive linemen. And I think that’s going to matter._
_Andrew Gillis (20:46.924)_
_Yeah._
_Stephen Means (21:13.762)_
_Especially at this position where I think Larry Johnson and Ohio State’s reputation of producing productive players in the NFL, not just superstars, but productive players in the NFL might get Caden Curry drafted 30 spots higher than it would have if he had done all these exact same things, but he were playing at Wisconsin._
_Andrew Gillis (21:36.206)_
_Yeah, and the thing that I’m trying to think of too is like, I think Ohio State fans, I mean, you guys are smart. You guys watched the team this year. You guys know that Caden Curry had a better year than Kenyatta Jackson. There’s a reason why one of them is going to the NFL and one of them is not. there’s a reason. Well, that. Well, I meant it more as like there’s a reason why both of them are not in the NFL. But like._
_Stephen Means (21:52.038)_
_Well, the other reason is because one’s not allowed to come back to college football the other way._
_Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m with._
_Andrew Gillis (22:02.306)_
_We all know, Kayden, it’s just, we all know Kayden had the better year, but you almost got to think of it like sometimes like they do, which is why these conversations are interesting because it’s like, if you’re an NFL GM and you know, let’s say you’re a team that’s rebuilding or a team that’s trying to get young. All right. Like, would you rather take a sure kind of proven_
_Maybe your third defensive end in the fifth round, or would you take the guy who, you know what, if we can coach him up for a year, he can be our number two pass rusher that gets seven and a half sacks. Every single one of those guys, mostly are going to say, or most likely are going to say, well, let’s take the upside guy. It’s the fifth round. If you miss on a fifth round pick, it’s not a big deal, which is why I’m kind of curious about Kaden Curry._
_Stephen Means (22:46.33)_
_Which is, yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (22:46.543)_
_I will say too there that there is though an element of upside with Kaden though, because it’s not like he played, you know, four years as a starter at Ohio State. You know what he is right? Like I know he’s not a G five guy. Sure. But I don’t know. There’s probably some G five guys who even at that level played a lot more than he played at at Ohio State._
_Stephen Means (22:52.07)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (23:06.532)_
_Yeah, I think his production showed you what he can do. I think this next week is going to be like, hey, is there more room on that plate? And I do think it’s an intriguing week for him to be able to do that. OK, most of the two defensive. I like how this worked out. It’s two up front, two in the middle, three in the back end. Essentially every single position is going to be covered for Ohio State in this NFL draft from a defensive standpoint. Let’s take a break and then we’ll come back and we’ll talk about. Is this the best linebacker duo in Ohio State history here on Buckeye Talk?_
_And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk. Steven, me and Stefan Krasnik and Andrew Gillis previewing Ohio State’s Combine 11 guys for an offense seven on defense. And I just teased the idea of is this the best linebacker duo in Ohio State history? And Stefan made a face like, well, I mean, you saw what you saw this year. So I started doing some digging and actually sent this out to our Texas 6 1 4 3 5 0 3 3 1 5 2 week creature out 399. After that, the last time Ohio State had a linebacker taken in the first round of the NFL draft._
_was 2016, so 10 years ago, and it was Darren Lee to the New York Jets at number 20. Darren Lee NFL career. He ended up winning the Super Bowl, but I’m not sure he turned into a guy who ended up being a worth a first round draft pick. And now he’s got some off the field issues that we’re not going to discuss here on this podcast. I think the highest that I saw was 20 years ago, so 10 and 10, AJ Hawk going number five to the Green Bay Packers in the 2006 draft. And so I was wondering._
_Because I was literally getting ready say this to our Texas. The last time Ohio State had two linebackers taken in the first round was A.J. Hawke, who went fifth, as I mentioned, and Bobby Carpenter with 18th in that same year. And I was like, man, that’s the only other time that still happened. But because, you know, sometimes you just want to double check your work. I let me make sure this has never happened before. Before I just say this as an undeniable fact. And it has happened before in 1974, Rick Middleton went 13th and Randy Gratishaw went 14th._
_in the 1974 NFL draft. So this is going to be the third time ever that Ohio State has had two linebackers taken in the first round. And I think it might look similar to the AJ Hawk Bobby Carpenter one, where there’s one that goes really, really early. And then there’s a guy who goes maybe in the middle of the draft. Though I don’t know, man, Sonny Styles is 6′4, 240. So if he sneaks into like number nine or 10, depending on what the team feels like it needs, I don’t think we’d be shocked by that. But._
_Stephen Means (25:34.576)_
_I don’t know, rank them. And we’re young, we’re young, so I get it. But like rank them. We also did a greatest book, I think, last year, so we all know who Granny Gratty Child is. Rank them. Because these are the three duos, right? Like the other two who had first round draft picks were also awesome dudes._
_Stefan Krajisnik (25:44.805)_
_Yeah._
_Yeah. Yeah. I think the context had to it though, cause like I saw a mock that had a Sunny go number 12 and obviously, you know, our bell continues to be mocked at number two. We’re talking three OSU linebackers ever taken in top 10. And those three were also like, if you want to extend it to like top 12, we’ve only had three ever taken, right? So like there’s a chance that that number goes from three to five and one draft, right? If, if Sunny goes in top 10 or top 12, whatever it may be. And the 12 is convenient because_
_Stephen Means (25:59.335)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (26:12.806)_
_Stefan Krajisnik (26:18.339)_
_one of the linebackers was taking 13. So I like, you you set your own parameters to fit your narrative. And that’s, that’s what I do._
_Stephen Means (26:24.094)_
_That’s how stats are born. It’s just where do you want to stop? That’s how you create a stat._
_Stefan Krajisnik (26:25.871)_
_Yes. Correct. It’s like Bill Self is 38-0 as a home team on Big Monday. It’s like, OK, what about Big Tuesday? What’s it looking like on Tuesday? That is he 38-0? You fit your narrative however you needed to fit. I mean, it’s certainly possible that that was the best duo. I think what’s difficult is Arvel. It happened so quick._
_Stephen Means (26:33.882)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (26:53.593)_
_in such a short time span and obviously the way the season ended it ends on a sour and sour note. So you don’t have, know, maybe the pomp and circumstance that surrounded the careers of AJ and Bobby Carpenter, who I think would probably be, I would probably pick them as the top understanding that, you know, I wasn’t alive in the seventies. So if you’re, you know, honking your car horn right now and everyone’s looking at you, like, why is he punching his, his car horn? It’s cause you, you watched guys at Gratishire play and you’re like, they were better._
_Stephen Means (26:54.075)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (27:23.057)_
_I get it. understand. But I the point here is that this was a pretty damn good duo and the NFL is going to reflect that. I coming into the year, we knew, you know, kind of in the Ohio State bubble that if our fellow had a big season, he was going to certainly emerge as a guy who could go, you know, in the first round. I think he obviously exceeded, you know, even those lofty expectations and Sonny, if I’m remembering correctly, you know, mocks had him probably around like what 27282930 like_
_late, late twenties and some of the mocks maybe even lower, like, like Gillis is saying there, maybe not even a first round pick. And now we’re talking about two guys that are in the top 12. And I think it’s, mean, it’s fantastic for Ohio state. And it almost feels like we talk every year about the heartline kind of pipeline with, with receivers and the, you know, what they’ve been able to do with that position. It’s year after year with the first round pick._
_And what’s kind of the peak is the peak Jeremiah Smith. Is that when the streak ends and then you reset after that? And obviously now heartlines, you know, no longer coaching the receivers. So that’s, that’s a reset in and of itself. This feels like I, mean, maybe in terms of numbers, this will be the peak for Laura Nidus. It’s really hard to have two guys in the same draft go in the top 10 or top 15. Like that, that does not happen, but it almost feels like this kind of like it’s been building with Laura Nidus for a couple of years and like, boom._
_Stephen Means (28:22.118)_
_Thanks_
_Stefan Krajisnik (28:46.245)_
_Here’s like, here’s the like, we’ve arrived statement, not that Ohio state linebackers need a, we’ve arrived. Ohio says has a pretty good linebackers, but in terms of, you know, becoming high level picks in the NFL, like it hasn’t happened a ton in Ohio, Ohio state history, like I said there. like this feels like a bit of a moment, I think for Laura Knight is kind of what he can do as an assistant. And we’ve had conversations already this off season of like, okay, heartlines gone._
_Stephen Means (29:03.366)_
_Stefan Krajisnik (29:10.639)_
_which Ohio state staffers may be the next heartline in terms of production and development. And it really seems like James James, or night is could be that guy, a guy who ended up itself, like you could probably have a conversation of like where Lauren, I just fits in, you know, in terms of greatest linebackers in Ohio state history, that that’s, you know, conversation of itself too. So it’s a, it’s a big moment for Ohio state for sure. I’d probably take AJ and Bobby, but there’s no denying what this group was able to do. And_
_You know, you’re definitely sitting there thinking to yourself, I really wish we had one more year of this. And that’s not to diminish what Cody Simon and Sonny Siles. Like that’s, I mean, that’s a duo in and of itself that deserves its respect because they won a national title and they were both awesome. And just cause Cody Simon wasn’t a first round pick doesn’t mean he wasn’t great at Ohio state. I he was the block. right. He was, he was the key to that team coming back and having, you know, that, that kind of, you know, return and production in 2024. Like he played a big part in that._
_but you, but you do wish you had seen a little more Arville and sunny because I think the NFL is telling us how good those two were. And this doesn’t happen without sunny styles, you know, making that change in a position and James or night is, you know, kind of identifying where he feels this guy could be a star and, now we’re seeing him potentially go, you know, the top 10 of the NFL draft. It’s a pretty cool story in a Testament to what Lauren is doing in that room._
_Andrew Gillis (30:33.302)_
_Yeah, I think it’s probably honestly the best. The best stand up like the best duo like at least for a year. Like I think if you want to say, you know, they were the most talented. I think it’s all about phrasing, right? It’s like they were the most talented. They had the best year. If somebody wants to make the case for other guys and be like, yeah, they were better for their careers. You know, Arvel really only had the one year sunny._
_played two years of linebacker and you know, he really wasn’t like all that. You know, he didn’t come in with all the fanfare of linebacker. I so if you want to make that case, that’s fine. I think this is the best season in all I say linebacking history just because of the versatility with those guys, the way that they were able to, you know, blitz and come off the edge. Like I was looking at this the other day, just, you know, in my own personal time where I was like, all right. I it feels like the ceiling for Arvel Reese is two to the Jets._
_Like it feels like that’s probably where he can go. I don’t know. The floor might be like the absolute floor has fallen out floor feels like eight or nine New Orleans, Kansas City. Like it was like Kansas City could you like doesn’t feel like Arvel’s leaving the top 10. And then with Sonny, I was actually having this conversation with somebody._
_you know, back in DC and I was like, Washington feels in play for Sonny at seven, because how many teams are going to look at me like there’s this dude miss one tackle all year. And we could really use a guy who’s 642 40 and runs pretty well on our defense and miss tackles. And then you start to start to think about it, you’re like, what about the what about the Giants like the giant like_
_Stephen Means (32:13.584)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Andrew Gillis (32:24.47)_
_are the Giants out it like is it is it reasonable that it’s like our vel Reese to Caleb downs for Sonny Styles five like it’s not insane. But I just think there’s gonna be for as much as like, for as tricky of a conversation this is because we’re talking about Caden and Kenyatta. So yeah, well the upside you got to take that blah blah blah. There’s these some of these teams suck._
_Stephen Means (32:45.072)_
_Yeah._
_Andrew Gillis (32:50.254)_
_at the top of the trap. And like you look at a team like Cincinnati and you’re like, man, Cincinnati couldn’t tackle a cold. And now all of sudden they’re sitting there and there’s a dude like that in the middle of defense. They probably like that guy. Yeah, the Rams defense was not very good. Maybe maybe they could take him at 13. Like the Raven like there’s all of these kind of teams that you like you get to and you’re like, there’s no way they’re letting Sonny go by them that 1415 whatever._
_So I think we’re gonna see it show out to where we like five and 18, I think was what you said with Hawk and Carpenter. So 23, so the 23, if you wanna aggregate that score, I guess, I don’t know that’s the best way to do it, but I think we’re going lower with Arvel and Sunny. Like I think if you were to add up the draft slots, hell, might not get double digits depending on how this thing goes._
_Stephen Means (33:29.637)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (33:46.97)_
_The average was 11 and a half. That’s how you do it._
_Stefan Krajisnik (33:47.344)_
_I do like-_
_Andrew Gillis (33:49.696)_
_Well, I mean, I was just thinking, like, if you want to add them together. So yeah, sure. So the average, whatever, you know what I was saying._
_Stefan Krajisnik (33:54.374)_
_I like Gillis. Gillis does the adding, not bothering with the dividing. I respect that. I respect, I also respect the entire NFCE is just being like, all right, which Ohio State defender are you taking? And I’ll take the other one._
_Andrew Gillis (33:57.57)_
_Yeah. Division is for losers._
_Stephen Means (33:58.277)_
_Yeah._
_The mean we’ve nothing right?_
_Stephen Means (34:09.018)_
_So was looking up sizes of these guys like they’re playing sizes and it’s it’s not gonna be on point or anything like that._
_Stephen Means (34:22.086)_
_Rick Middleton, six foot two, 228 pounds. Randy Gratishaw, six three, approximately 233 to 236 pounds. Bobby Carpenter, six two, and anywhere between 249 and 256. AJ Hawk, six one, and between 240 and 250. And then as we know, like, our of our recent Sunny Styles are like six four, and anywhere between 235 and 245._
_And they can run like the wind and they can cover and like, yeah, Sonny Styles spent the year starting at nickel safety. Oh yeah. R.L. Reese spent time being a defensive end on this roster. Oh yeah. R.L. Reese has only been a starting linebacker for one year. Oh yeah. Sonny Styles has only been playing linebacker for two years. Like I watched Sonny play in high school at Pickerton Central for a game. They had the dude at free safety._
_And he was like, what his whole job was. If anybody else messes up, we have Sonny Styles and you don’t. And it was immaculate to watch. I think if I’m going to answer my own question, what’s the best duo? If we’re going to talk about most decorated, I think they’re clearly third. It wasn’t long enough and they really didn’t do a lot individually. They did write Sonny Styles. Essentially, they shared a linebacker spot on the All-American list. It’s just._
_Arvel Reese got the number one spot more often than not. essentially they are Sonny Styles. The reason why he only made one major All-American team is because of our various. Arvel Reese not being a unanimous All-American is because of Sonny Styles. So I think they the Ohio State linebacking core should just be named unanimous All-American at that point._
_Stephen Means (36:05.881)_
_BUT_
_AJ Hawke and Bobby Carpenter, all Americans. AJ Hawke’s like a multi-year all American. Randy Gradishaj is one of the greatest players in Ohio State history. When you think of Ohio State football, and you start rattling off names, you list his name early in that conversation. So it’s just from a, yeah, Buckeye War conversation. So if we’re having a greatest conversation, a best conversation, I think the two or third._
_Stefan Krajisnik (36:24.548)_
_Okay, aura._
_Stephen Means (36:35.833)_
_And always love conversations like this because there’s two different ways you can have it. You can have it based on like resume. And you can also just have it off of, if we’re on the playground picking players, who do you pick first? And these are the first two names you’re gonna pick. If you lined up all six of these dudes on a playground and you’d never seen anybody play, you just go, I want that guy and I want that guy and we’re gonna roll._
_Stefan Krajisnik (37:04.081)_
_I don’t know, man. A.J. Hawk is a dude._
_Stephen Means (37:07.397)_
_No, he is a dude, but he’s not 642 35 to 40 as a dude. I mean. I mean, Sonny Styles has one of the greatest hairlines I’ve ever seen, and our various dreadlocks and they flow. And our various looks like Jeremiah Smith has a linebacker. Jeremiah Smith looks like our various has a wide receiver._
_Stefan Krajisnik (37:12.325)_
_Does the hair matter though? Are you taking hair into account?_
_Stefan Krajisnik (37:23.465)_
_That’s fair._
_Stephen Means (37:31.782)_
_So I think I think if we’re going to say most talented, I think if we’re just talking raw talent, these two are the best ones. And it’s because of what we’re talking about. They did all this and they are in like step one of their linebacker development as adults because we’re so he styles is playing linebacker for 24 months and he’s about to be a first round graphic. That’s insane. That’s it. That’s also genetics. Like his father was an all big time linebacker at Ohio State and had a pretty decent NFL career._
_as well, Lorenzo South Senior. And we’re going to talk about his brother here in a second. But I think they are the. They are it. They are the ball. They are the the apex of what linebacker looks like. Big, strong, fast, agile, smart._
_Decisive Like how many times did we watch games this year where it felt like there’s a whole no, it’s gone. Okay, it’s gone Wow. Look at the whole the offensive linemen just opened at that running back. no. No, never mind one yard gain Okay, cool. look at them both on the line of scrimmage. I hope I don’t have a young quarterback back there cuz now you’re in fear so_
_Andrew Gillis (38:48.546)_
_When you said that, I thought you were gonna do the mobile, agile, hostile line from Remember the Titans. I thought that’s where you were going from. What is pain French bread? I was like, that’s where he’s going. I’m excited. Somebody else is doing a movie reference._
_Stephen Means (38:55.203)_
_Yeah, but they’re not. I was. I was. Yeah, I was. I was, but they’re not really hostile. They’re two nice. They’re two of the nicest people I’ve ever met in my life._
_Andrew Gillis (39:06.286)_
_Well, they are very, they’re two of the dudes where it’s like, wow. Look at how nice they are. Look at how like mild, like you meet Arvel Reese and he’s just like, how are you, sir? Nice to meet you. He’s like soft spoken. And you see these big hulking linebackers, like there’s no way he’s that. They put on a helmet and then it changes. Which is what you should be as a football player._
_Stephen Means (39:22.02)_
_Yeah._
_Stephen Means (39:32.096)_
_They turn into, will you ever quit? No, we want some, oh, we want some, oh, we want some, oh. It’s, I don’t get it. They’re two very nice, even the block, oh, Harvelle is great. They’re really good people. You know who doesn’t think they’re a good person? Every single quarterback they played this year._
_Andrew Gillis (39:37.08)_
_What is fatigues? Army clothes? Yeah._
_Stephen Means (39:57.338)_
_probably doesn’t think Sonny Styles and R. Valriese are pretty nice people. But yeah, that’s what it is._
_Andrew Gillis (40:00.642)_
_That right tackle and left tackle from Illinois probably super does not like Arville Reese._
_Stephen Means (40:05.379)_
_Brandon Baker from Texas probably hates our very recent sunny styles. Respect them. Good people. I hate you. You are why I had a bad first start. So that’s what I would say. If we’re talking decorated, I think this is a different conversation. If Ohio State finishes this thing out, wins the national title. We’re having a different conversation. But when the other groups have multiple wins over Michigan. Multiple Big Ten titles._
_multiple individual accolades, and it feels like the Sonny Styles, Arval Reese experience was over before it really got going. It’s hard to like put them in the same table at them from that perspective. But if we’re just talking raw talent, I don’t think there’s anything close to those guys. They are H.A. Hawk and Bobby Carpenter were so good. And then there was a freshman named James Zoranaitis sitting behind him. wait, I’ll save that story for when we talk about the linebackers, because there’s a don’t know, Riley Pettigrew situation happening there. Let’s take a final break._
_And then we’ll talk about DBZero on Buckeye Talk._
_Welcome back to Buckeye Talks, Stephen Means, Stefan Kreisnick and Drew Gillis. And I don’t know if I mentioned this, Kaden Curry is one forty fifth overall amongst defensive ends. This is actually a pretty deep edge class. So it’s going to be interesting to see where he goes, because that also goes into play here. I’m like, there’s a lot of edge rushers in this class. Arval Reese and Sonny Styles are the consensus number one and number two linebackers in this class. The consensus has Sonny Styles going to the Dallas Cowboys._
_And Arvel, as we’ve mentioned, going to the Jets. And now let’s start with corner. And let’s start by giving Gillis another chance to wave his flag again for a man who is currently in the consensus, considered the 76 overall player and the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10th overall cornerback. Gillis, this is where you this is it, man. It’s your time to shine. You said that that._
_Stephen Means (42:07.737)_
_David Ibn Nusayn could use the combine and people were going to go, whoa, he’s he’s amazing. So this is your chance. Wave your flag._
_Andrew Gillis (42:17.454)_
_I think I said CJ Donaldson has a really big week ahead of him because CJ Donaldson needs to have a nice testing period._
_Davis and Ibn Osin can change his life pretty significantly. You know, I’m looking at some of these guys last year in the combine. So Davis and Ibn Osin is listed at 6 to 195. You know, as I’m running through here._
_I’m trying to compare, you know, 40 times. Darian Porter at 6′3″, 195 was, he ran a 4′3″. He had a nice combine, 36 and a half inch vertical. Let’s see here. Not a lot of dudes ran. 6′3″, 186, Za Frazier from Texas, San Antonio, 4.36, 40._
_BJ Adams, UCF 62182, ran a 453. Some of these dudes don’t run, but..._
_I’m still maintaining that he can go really high because of this. Denzel Burke last year, 5′11″, 186, ran a 4′48″. Denzel Burke was, I think, a fifth round pick. went 175, give or take, something like that. That kind of rings a bell, 170. 174. He was kind of in that range, but Davison..._
_Stephen Means (43:51.557)_
_174._
_Andrew Gillis (44:00.43)_
_kind of strikes me as the Kenyatta Jackson of this conversation where it’s, hey, he had, he did have production. Like I don’t think anybody’s going to say he didn’t. And there was obviously a pretty rapid and pretty drastic improvement from 24 to 25 in terms of cutting down the penalties. I just, I look at Davison and I see a guy where if he shows up and we’ll see if he’s going to test._
_If he shows up and runs, like, and he runs well, I think people like Steven was saying with Ty Leek, they went back and looked and said, huh, how did this compare to the film? And how does this show up on tape?_
_And they’re going to see a dude whose arms are freakishly long. They’re going to see a dude whose physical is all get up. They’re going to see a dude who can defend the run, like, which is becoming a bigger and bigger part of today’s NFL was as these offenses kind of change and you start to see fullbacks start to get, you know, put on rosters again and, all these things start to change. It’s like the, the, the, the, the skeleton of Davis and Ibn Osin. If you were to put a corner in a lab._
_probably close to what you’re coming out with of an ideal corner and an outside corner at that with Davis and I just, I really think that right now we are going to get, or there’s a decent chance that we get through combine week. And if you watch the NFL network,_
_and Daniel Jeremiah and Mel Kuyper and on ESPN and all these other different people who do this for a living are going, someone who really impressed executives this week was Davis and Iqban Noss. And I just, I kind of think that a good combine can elevate him from whatever, Steven, whatever he’s at 74, 75, somewhere in there. I think this can elevate him to a first round conversation because I think his film was pretty good this year. And I think if you back that up with all the athletic traits in the world,_
_Andrew Gillis (46:06.394)_
_going to be an NFL coach who says, why can’t we take him at 31? Like, why can’t he be our number two corner? And, you know, we can kind of continue to coach him up on that stuff. So yeah, I, I have always kind of thought that this was where it was ending. I thought there would be a little bit more hype about Davis and going into this. But like, if you’ve listened to me for two years at this point, talk about Davison, one of the things that I’ve said is like, the NFL is going to love him._
_And I think we’re here now._
_Stefan Krajisnik (46:39.025)_
_think what’s interesting with Davidson is I really didn’t think he was going to be that low in some of these mocks. I thought he was going to be kind of like second rounder in most mocks. we had, I think the three of us were talking to Bill Landis I think earlier this year at one point where we were having our_
_one of our one million conversations about Gillis’s take that Davidson’s gonna be a first round pick. And Stephen and I both kind of said like, I mean, we wouldn’t be shocked if it was like early second and Bill Landis was like, okay, if you think he can be early second, what’s the difference between 35th and 29th? And we were like, okay, fair point. That’s a good point. I guess maybe he could sneak into the first round. That’s why I, cause I thought it was gonna be mock there. And then maybe we could talk about, okay, if you go 15 picks earlier than you’re mocked, then sure, maybe you fall into the first round. I’m kind of surprised to see him there, but I think_
_I mean, we all know that the size and the attributes are there, right? And he can really wow. Some people at the combine or at pro day as he kind of goes through this and I, and credit to him, there’s, there’s a lot of times where guys come back for another year of college football. it’s like, think you’re going to improve your stock and maybe you actually miss your window. came back and he like, he fixed what he needed to do. Right. were talking like, can he cut it from, you know, 16 to like nine, you know, uh, coverage penalties. And, I don’t know what the exact number ended up being. pretty sure it was._
_It was well below that even. that like that in and of itself was, was pretty impressive. He fixed what he came back to fix, right? Like they, they achieve what they wanted to achieve. And I think that’s going to boost his stock. And I think another thing too, cause we, we joked about it right before we got on air. Cause Davidson came across my Tik TOK feed and he was either at Disney world or Disneyland, whichever one he was at. And it’s like, it’s one of those things where you see these guys personalities kind of on display on their social media is maybe more so than, you know, when they’re_
_you know, sitting in a press conference or in front of a microphone with a bunch of reporters that you see there. I think he’s got some of those tools based on his tick tock to impress some, some, you know, execs in the interviews, right? Like there’s more because I think you saw it in the way he celebrate. just don’t think you saw it in front of a microphone a ton. And I think that in a setting like that, where he’s kind of just chatting it up and they’re, they’re asking him questions and it’s not like, you know, he’s, he’s in front of a microphone. I think he can do really well too. And some of those interviews, like it’s clear that he’s got_
_Stefan Krajisnik (48:53.839)_
_you know, some personality there and could be someone that NFL execs really fall in love with. and kind of the last thing I want to hit on too is like the way Ryan Day talked about him before the cotton bowl, I think matters, right? Like that, that was not him being like, here’s a guy who’s got a good frame cut down on the penalties. He’s a really good corner. He talked about this guy like changing the culture in the corner room. And I’m not saying an NFL exec is going to say, Hey, this guy who we take_
_Stephen Means (49:08.248)_
_you_
_Stephen Means (49:17.241)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (49:21.137)_
_you know, with the 40th overall pick is going to change the culture in our corner room, right? I don’t think it goes quite that way in the NFL like it does, you know, at the collegiate level when we talk about culture and stuff like that. But I think it matters, right? I think it matters to some extent because this guy wasn’t tasked with just coming in and being a lockdown corner and then go into the NFL, right? He made an impact in that room and in that program._
_And I think that’s something that that to some extent matters, right? So if, if there’s, you know, if there’s this stuff that Gillis is talking about with the physical that helps him out and then there’s, you know, it helps him two spots in a draft because he had a really good interview and it helps him couple spots in the draft because he did more at Ohio State than just be, you know, locked down corner. It starts to add up and it’s like, okay, this guy was mocked. What’d you say? Steven 75th or whatever it was just went 43rd._
_Stephen Means (50:09.796)_
_74._
_Stefan Krajisnik (50:13.303)_
_That’s a lot of money between those picks there, right? And that big jump that happens because of what you did at the Combine and Pro Day on and off the field._
_Andrew Gillis (50:13.644)_
_Yeah._
_Andrew Gillis (50:19.918)_
_The guy last year, at this time last year, Maxwell Hairston was 66th overall in the NFL mock draft database. He went 30th overall to the Bills. I do wonder if that..._
_Stephen Means (50:28.644)_
_took a cold year._
_Andrew Gillis (50:35.758)_
_And frankly, think it’s certainly possible that we’re going to see a big old boost from Davis hitting Benosan here in these next couple of weeks. And all of a sudden it’s going to go from Davis hitting Benosan day two pick to kind of like that day one conversation like we’re having._
_Stephen Means (50:51.588)_
_So we had 30 penalties in his career. More than half of them came in 2024. had three as a true freshman at Ole Miss. In 2023, his first year here, he had six. He had 16 in 2024. As we know, had five. So he cut that, not just cut it in third, he had one third as many. It’s very impressive by Davis and Iguanoso. And I think the reason why it’s so impressive is he also got targeted less this year. He got targeted_
_71 times his first year here, 60 times his second year here and then only 46 targets. So you’re also talking about 24 less. Well, that’s actually that’s all right. 14 less targets, but I don’t know. He’s got 14 more penalties if you target him 14 more times. It’s not not based off what we saw this year. Maybe in 2024 we would have said that, but not this year. Yeah, I think he did. He improved as a player. I just don’t know if he improved the stock as a player. And I think the best example._
_Like we thought Carnell would be a first round draft pick because we’ve just kind of gotten there with Ohio State receivers of the next dude. As soon as he gets more opportunities, he’s going to get he’s going to be a first round draft pick. What if he wasn’t? What if Carnell was just fine? You think he still leaves, probably, and he’s like, I don’t know, forty six in the NFL draft. Or maybe he’s where Davis and even notes in this is just like Carnell took a step. I think it’s intriguing is._
_This wide receiver class and this cornerback class have turned out to be deeper than we thought they were going to be. That’s the other part of this is. OK, yeah, I remember that conversation is talking about Stefan and like to use that like, OK, if you think he can be, you know, 38, how come he can’t be 28? I don’t know, because it might be him in another corner back there choosing between. Like, that’s what this might just come down to a lot of different times is Mansour Delain is going to be the first cornerback taken off the board at this point. I think everybody knows that._
_And if that name sounds familiar, yes, that is the older brother of Fahim Delane, former Ohio State cornerback, who is now ironically at LSU. Not playing for the same guy, though. Mansour played for Brian Kelly. Fahim’s going to play for. know. Well, actually, they might be kind of the same guy. Lane Kiffin and Brian Kelly._
_Stefan Krajisnik (53:07.631)_
_with a better Twitter presence._
_Stephen Means (53:09.22)_
_Yeah, Yeah, guy, he wants got better like personal PR. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,_
_Andrew Gillis (53:12.844)_
_Yeah, better._
_Stephen Means (53:38.245)_
_All it takes is for you to give up one touchdown and we all think you got cooked the entire game. Cornerbacks and offensive tackles have a lot in common and where I can do my job for 45 snaps, but I want this one snap. I didn’t do my job and now everybody’s talking about me on Twitter. Avion Terrell, he’s the little brother of AJ Terrell, who’s Atlanta Falcons first round draft pick all those years ago. And now he’s our like franchise corner. Like he’s in this draft class. He’s projected to be a first round draft pick._
_Brennan to say from South Carolina, he’s projected to be a first round draft pick. Colton Hood from Tennessee. He’s projected to be a first round draft pick. So that’s four. First round corners right there. Let’s just say this holds. And yes, I agree. Davis and Ibn Osin can go a long way over the next week and even during pro day. I’m like, hey, I am that good. The problem is I just named four guys and then there’s Keith, Keith Abney, the second from Arizona State. There’s Chris Johnson from San Diego State. There’s Keontae Scott._
_who made single handedly the biggest play in the cotton ball. Regardless of what happened the rest of that game, if that’s not a pick six, maybe that game ends a little bit differently because Ohio State was starting to snatch away back momentum and it was only seven to nothing before Keontae Scott made that play. And DeAngelo Spont, who I think has been underrated for the last two years, and I think he’s been one of the best cornerbacks. How many big plays did he make over the last two years? That’s six or seven dudes._
_before you get the Davis and Ibn Nosen that he has to. It’s not just about him doing well. He has to do so well that he jumps those guys. And I’m not saying it’s impossible. I think he could do it. OK, what if he’s awesome this next week? But also those seven guys are also awesome. And everybody lives thinking, OK, there’s just seven really elite cornerbacks in this draft. So it’s just like whichever one is next on our list is we’re going to take it when it’s time for us to take a cornerback if he’s still available._
_And what if we get to the end of the line? It’s like as good as David, I think, but also as he’s constantly seventh of mine, he’s constantly seventh of mine when if the quarterback class was 30 % weaker, he’d be third in line. And so now he’s the 21st versus being the 51st pick. So I think my issue is less with him and more just this is what happens when you’re in a deep class at your position position group. This can happen, right? This is part of the reason why Mecca Bucca_
_Stephen Means (55:59.269)_
_outside of injuries, it was smart for him to come back to school. Cause he went 19th as the number two guy. Where would he have gone in 2025? Excuse me, 2024, had he come out after his junior year? Same thing with Chris Olave. Chris Olave was the third wide receiver off the board in his recruiting, in his drive class in 2022. What if he would have come out the year earlier in 2021 in a class that was loaded?_
_You think he still goes that high? Maybe not. So some of this is just timing of it. I think last year when I was laughing at you is because I just didn’t think he was that good. Now I just think it might be. Yeah, he’s that good. But he’s like one of like seven due to are that good. And there’s not going to be seven cornerbacks who are taking in the first round of NFL draft. He says, knowing that if there are seven quarterbacks taking in the first round of NFL draft, that people can clip this. But yeah, I think David’s Nick Mendoza has done a lot over the last 12 months to change his reputation._
_I think he can punctuate that over the next week and also at pro day next month. I’m just not sure just given how deep it is will pay off the same way it would have if there were only like three or four really good cornerbacks in this class, but good luck to Davis and I can put those up._
_I want to talk about Caleb Downs last. Let’s talk about the other styles brother first. I think Lorenzo Styles Jr. is going to get drafted._
_Stephen Means (57:27.76)_
_And I was having this conversation with one of our textures, like I think last week, six, one, four, three, five, three, one, five. When I first sent out the the the guys who got invited and they were like, OK, well, we’ll get most of these guys drafted, maybe not both styles brothers. And I was like, I don’t know, man, how many dudes in college football right now can say that they were a starting wide receiver at Notre Dame and a starting cornerback at Ohio State?_
_Like I don’t. And when you get to like the sixth and seventh rounds, you’re looking for traits. For guys who can play special teams. I don’t know, like Lorenzo, everybody has told us for two years, Lorenzo Stiles, the fastest dude on the team, he’s a good athlete. He’s not he’s not a freak the way his little brother is, but he’s a really, really good athlete in his own right. And I think when you’re looking for sixth and seventh rounders, guys who are going to be deaf pieces and special teams guys, he can be a part return and kick return specialist for you._
_I think if he goes in there and he’s like a 4-4 dude and has a really good pro day as well, I’m not saying he’s going to be a first round, second round pick, but like, I don’t know, could he be like the 245th pick in the NFL draft? I don’t think that’s off base. And I think that starts this weekend._
_Stefan Krajisnik (58:39.153)_
_Yeah, I think the specialty is part of it’s kind of interesting too, because of what, you know, the kick return has become in the NFL with the rule change, right? Like it’s a pretty big deal now. You know, maybe more than it was five years ago. I think that like, I don’t know, it’s, he’s probably not as fast as Rashid Shahid, but like,_
_I know the Seahawks win the Super Bowl if they don’t make that trade, right? Like Rashid Shahid was a weapon that they use and their special teams was prolific, right? And does that make a team, you know, worry about it more in the sixth or seventh round? I mean, we’ve seen, you know, punter, think Seattle’s punter was what, like a fifth round pick? I know the Bears took Iowa’s punter in the fourth round a few years ago, right? Like teams have prioritized, you know, special teams to some extent, obviously punter maybe more so than kick return or punt return._
_Stephen Means (59:03.876)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (59:26.033)_
_but there is an element to where if Lorenzo tests, well, that could be something that helps him out along with, like you said, Steven, that this is a guy who’s changed, you know, positions. Was he stellar at coverage at Ohio state? Well, we’ll play nickel. No, but you know, maybe there is a GM that says, Hey, we got the traits. Maybe with some more reps at the position or time working out the position. Yeah. It would not, it would not surprise me if he got drafted. All these things that we just mentioned._
_Could also make him a very intriguing guy where an NFL team says, hey, he’s probably not going to get drafted. Let’s hold out and as an undrafted free agent, he’s the first guy on our list that we go get him because we know he’s going to be there. Why waste the pick if we know he’s going to be there as an undrafted guy? That would not surprise me either. But in the seventh round, I think Lorenzo Stiles name is very much in play. And if there’s a team that says, hey, we can work with him on defense, but we know he can make an immediate impact on special teams after what the Seahawks just did this year._
_I could see it. I could totally see it happening._
_Andrew Gillis (01:00:28.608)_
_No, I disagree. I think he’s got a better chance to make the opening day 53 than to get drafted._
_Stephen Means (01:00:30.112)_
_No_
_Stephen Means (01:00:37.442)_
_I mean, he’s got to make the opening day 53. Like, that’s just..._
_Andrew Gillis (01:00:41.292)_
_I mean, if he gets drafted, he will. If he doesn’t, I mean, like, look, if you get drafted, it’s pretty rare for you to get cut right away. Like it has happened. Don’t get me wrong. It has been a thing where a team will draft a guy and be like, crap. And then they’ll cut him or they’ll just put in today’s world with the expanded practice squad. They’ll put them on the practice squad._
_Stephen Means (01:00:45.152)_
_Nah, that’s not true. get the seventh round. Not all seventh round._
_Andrew Gillis (01:01:07.986)_
_I don’t know, Lorenzo to me feels like a we’re going to sign this guy as a UDFA. He’s going to come in and battle for our backup slot corner spot. And he’s going to be a useful weapon on special teams. I don’t think he’s going to get drafted. I think he could run really well and that can boost his stock. just I don’t know if_
_it’s enough to look at him and be like, you know what, seventh round pick, sixth round pick. I understand what you’re saying. Like, who cares? Sixth round pick, take a good special teamer. But I just, I don’t know we’re there yet for me._
_Stephen Means (01:01:48.622)_
_I think I’ll, good._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:01:48.646)_
_The same. was just saying him getting invited to the combine. Does that 100 % mean like he’s healthy? He’s good to go because like there was the nagging shoulder thing and he was, you he had to leave the cotton ball. I don’t know. I don’t know if he’s had like an offseason thing or anything like that. I would imagine because he got invited that probably means he’s good._
_Stephen Means (01:01:57.444)_
_I’ll play it._
_Stephen Means (01:02:06.008)_
_Yeah, especially_
_Andrew Gillis (01:02:06.978)_
_I mean, dudes have popped up and said like, my shoulder, my knee, my whatever._
_Stephen Means (01:02:10.488)_
_Yeah, it also just seemed like something that it was the way he talked about it during the season. It’s like it’s not going to get worse. It’s just kind of it pops out. And so in the off season, they’ll get it cleaned up and that’ll be that. But I would assume given when Ohio State lost and he’ll have he’s had what, two, two months here to get to get there. I’m assuming that, he’s fine. I would say I’m not saying it’s one now. I think of the guys, they’re not all 11 guys when I get drafted._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:02:25.702)_
_Yeah._
_Stephen Means (01:02:39.242)_
_Of the guys that we would put in the basket of probably not getting drafted, I think he has the best case of putting of eventually being the guy who gets drafted from that bucket. And that bucket’s not big. It’s like maybe three guys, Max, that were having this conversation about they’re probably not going to drafted. I think he has the best case simply because he just might have a skill set to work with that is actively becoming more important because of some of the things they’ve done in the NFL. And you can put the ball in his hands and can end up in the end zone._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:03:08.977)_
_I should note that Seth McLaughlin was invited to the combine last year. So I guess it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re 100%, but._
_Stephen Means (01:03:09.486)_
_That matters._
_Andrew Gillis (01:03:16.994)_
_Yeah, you can show up to the combine. Teams can run their medical tests on you. You can do interviews. You just, you don’t have to work out. So yeah, there, there have been dudes who have blown ACLs or whatever that have been invited to the combine._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:03:23.279)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:03:29.361)_
_Yeah. Well, it’s like last year, Josh Fryer didn’t get invited to the combine. You know, I think was pretty consistently practice squad for the Cardinals this year. I’m not 100 % sure certain on that. Obviously, there’s the connection there with with Justin Fry to but like. I don’t know, like I thought there was a chance that maybe Fryer would get drafted and he didn’t even get invited to the combine. So Lorenzo getting invited, I think it’s not nothing, right? I think they’re._
_Stephen Means (01:03:38.062)_
_Good evening._
_Stephen Means (01:03:52.876)_
_It increases. It definitely increases yours._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:03:54.098)_
_Teams at least see something there that he got the invite, where a guy like Josh Fry didn’t even get an invite._
_Stephen Means (01:03:59.884)_
_It’s. And granted, just like his brother, it’s not like he’s been playing this position very long. He was a wide receiver when he got to college and then came to Ohio State and transitioned into this position. So it’s it’s like it’s one of those things. I feel like we’re saying that about a lot of these guys this year with this draft class. It’s like it’s a lot of dudes who have not played the position that they’re going to be playing in the NFL very long. And maybe there’s something more to tap into. And even if they have been playing it for very long, they haven’t had a lot of snaps on it, whether you’re talking about our Val Reiss._
_Caden Curry, like those guys, like, yeah, they were forever those positions, but they just played like meaningful football for a long time, one year. So maybe there’s something to tap into._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:04:36.441)_
_Yeah, that’s the difference you deal with between last year’s draft class and this year’s. Obviously, last year’s class was massive, but you had a lot of guys who had experience, played their position, things like that. This year’s class won’t have as many people. I would, for whatever, I don’t even know how you quantify this. I think this year’s class is more athletic and has the traits than last year’s. I think last year’s class was very much like, are guys who have produced at the collegiate level for you. And there’s exceptions, right?_
_Stephen Means (01:04:45.528)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (01:04:56.74)_
_Alright._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:05:03.915)_
_We just talked about Ty leak like did really well at this the combine and pro day and things of that nature. Like there’s there’s guys who who tested well and did well but it was like Davison is kind of an athletic freak. Denzel was very experienced corner. Caleb Downs is an athletic freak. We’re about to talk about Nathan ransom very experienced safety. Right. Jordan Hancock pretty experienced. You know Lorenzo we’re talking more about the trade like there’s it just feels that way with our vel_
_Stephen Means (01:05:16.068)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Yep._
_Stephen Means (01:05:24.057)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:05:32.646)_
_You know, our villain Sonny are in their own category, obviously, but Cody Simon was veteran guys. But like, it’s just the difference in what the rosters was, I think, is being reflected in how we talk about these draft classes, where this class is very much like these guys will test well, there’s ceilings to this pretty raw at their position. Whereas last year was like, you got to see a lot of it at the college level. Sure. guy like Jack Sawyer could change up his body a bit, be a little bit different player in the NFL. But for the most part, you kind of know what you’re getting. They’re proven commodities. That’s not, that’s not a bad thing, but they feel like a lot more proven commodities than maybe_
_Stephen Means (01:05:51.225)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:02.479)_
_what this year’s class is._
_Stephen Means (01:06:03.97)_
_And as a result, think last year had more guys who were like ready to play football from day one. And that showed in how they had, even though Burke, like he was a fifth round pick, but he played a lot of snaps for the Cardinals this year. You have a lot of guys this year where._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:07.781)_
_Yeah. yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:16.975)_
_Lathan was playing in that playoff game against the Panthers, or against the Rams._
_Stephen Means (01:06:18.468)_
_Lathan was planning to play off game. Jordan Hancock played a lot of snaps this year for the Bills. think this year’s might be a little more like. Let’s check back in in three years. Like you’re a little more of an investment class than last year’s Ohio State class, even like who’s and then there’s Caleb Douse. The last first round defensive back at Ohio State, as I mentioned before, Jeff O’Cood and David Arnett, who went three and 19 in 2020._
_The last time a safety went in the first round was Bleeck Hooker and 2017 he went 15th. Last time a safety at Ohio State went in the top 10 was Dante Whitner. He went number eight in 2006. And then the highest ever DB’s period are Okuda and then Sean Springs went number three in 1997. I don’t think any of us think that Caleb Downs is going to go three just simply because of the team needs in the top five. But._
_I’ll ask these two questions for both of you and Gailis, I’ll start with you._
_What is the highest possible spot Caleb Downs could go in April? Right. Assuming there’s no trades or anything right now based on the NFL draft order. And then also, if you were Caleb Downs. You are by all accounts, the most sure fire thing in this draft, it guaranteed you’re going to be very, very good. Everybody talks about you that way, but you are still a safety, right? This is not a quarterback not throwing. This is not Marv._
_not doing anything at the combine and not doing anything at pro day like there’s he still plays a position where he’s got to do something maybe like in theory. What would you do if you were Caleb Downs at the combine versus what would you say until pro day?_
_Andrew Gillis (01:08:09.866)_
_the highest he can go. I’ll say it three. Like I, I’m looking at this board and it’s like, I don’t think the jets are going to take him, but I don’t know, man. The Cardinals have invested pretty significantly at receiver. They just drafted more of a few years ago. like I know they have Kyler and that, that offense, they just feel like a train wreck._
_don’t know, man. They might look at the defense and go, who’s the best player? And it’s Caleb downs. And like, I understand that the safety thing is worrisome. And I’ve brought that up in the past where it’s like, Derwin James went like 16 or 15 or whatever it was, because people were terrified about safety and_
_Stephen Means (01:08:38.276)_
_player._
_Andrew Gillis (01:08:52.974)_
_Kyle Hamilton went like 14 because teams, oh no, he ran a four, five eight instead of a four, five, two. So how dare it’s like, come on man. So I have worried about that, but like._
_I don’t know. feel like Caleb is probably three and he’s not getting past the Bengals at 10. Like Caleb Downs is going to be having his name called the NFL draft in the first hour. Dependent. Well, maybe hour and a half because you know, that draft can, yeah. Yeah. The, the, the first 10 picks take two hours._
_Stephen Means (01:09:19.716)_
_Yeah, it’s show. It’s a show._
_Andrew Gillis (01:09:26.688)_
_What I would do if I was Caleb Downs is I would wear those glasses that he wears, those like big framed, and I would walk in in slides and sweats and I would say, no, thank you. don’t, I don’t, I’m good. I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna stress myself. I’m not gonna work out. If you wanna, if you wanna watch the tape, watch the tape. And I’m gonna sit and meet with teams and they’re gonna, I’m gonna let them do all the physicals. And I’m gonna say, let’s talk ball. And I’m gonna show them how smart I am._
_And that is what I think Caleb can do here that can really boost his stock. I don’t think there’s a benefit to him running. I don’t think there’s a benefit to him testing. He’s one of those guys where it’s like, I was talking about Cornell Tate. It’s like, man, you know, what would Tyson or lemon working out make him want to test or not want to test? Is it worth it for Cornell Tate to run it pro day or the combo? Like, is it worth it for any of this stuff to happen? For Caleb, it’s like, no._
_You’re good. Don’t worry about it. Just sit in a boardroom and do that like Gruden film school thing that they do for quarterbacks, but with safeties and be like, this is what this means and pop up up up up up up. And look, do that like always sunny meme where he’s like his hairs all over the place and I think it’s Charlie, his hairs all over the place and hands are out and he’s doing the conspiracy board thing just like_
_start diagramming stuff. And I think that’s going to be probably your most valuable use of time because teams can’t see in your head, they can see that you’re smart on the field, but they can’t see in your head to show them. So that’s what I would do. If I’m Caleb Downs, I would not do any combine pro day stuff, unless it’s medical testing or high weight speed or high weight weigh in. You know, measure my arm, sure, but I’m not doing anything else._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:11:14.733)_
_I because it’s the jets at number two. I don’t think it would surprise me if he went number two. Like, I don’t know. I just, I just wouldn’t be shocked. Right. Like the jets have so many needs. Like everyone’s, you know, saying how they need an edge rusher or a linebacker. Like they’re okay. They what’s up. Right. Right. Yeah. That’s that is, that is true too. It’s like, I don’t know what it would not shock me if, if they were like, Hey,_
_Andrew Gillis (01:11:29.314)_
_didn’t have a pick last year. They didn’t have a pick last year. They did not have an interception._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:11:43.046)_
_sure we need a Ned George or a linebacker, but we also kind of need a safety and this guy’s one of the best safety prospects since you know, whenever right like he just won the Thorpe award. I don’t know. So I want to rule out him going number two. I if I were to bet it I’d say our bell probably goes number two, but I’m just I’m just not ruling it out. So I think that’s maybe the ceiling. And I think we all just know Raiders need a quarterback Fernandos there like that’s just who’s going over one. That’s not really that’s not even feasible to think about._
_Stephen Means (01:12:07.744)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:12:11.939)_
_If I was Caleb, I’d call my brother and I’d be like, how’s the turf at Lucas oil run? And if it runs fast, I’ll do everything there. Right. He Josh Downs knows that turf pretty damn well. The only thing I know about that turf is that I got our shoes dirty at Big 10 media days because they switched that like coconut dirt stuff, whatever it was. And it was just got all our shoes dirty at Big 10 media days a couple of years ago. But I don’t know like it, if he thinks he can do pretty well in India, right? Like Ohio State’s had the proper amount of time._
_Stephen Means (01:12:17.751)_
_Yeah. Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:12:41.617)_
_to get ready to ramp up for a combine this year compared to last year. I know we talked about it on the pod yesterday. So if he feels ready to go and thinks he can test pretty well, I don’t think it hurts to get it out of the way now. And then when, when pro day rolls around, you can kind of just do whatever the hell you want to do. And when you’re in Columbus, um, I, yeah, I would talk to my brother and be like, what do you think I should do? You’ve, you’ve gone through this, you’ve played at this stadium plenty of times. How do you think I should approach the draft? But overall, I think_
_Stephen Means (01:13:05.176)_
_Yeah._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:13:09.617)_
_I know you guys are what you say you guys both said he was going to go like 70th overall or something when we did a pod a few months ago, we were talking about Caleb Downs is an NFL prospect and I said he’s going to go top five. I feel pretty pretty validated in that. So he doesn’t need us. It’s just the numbers gotten bigger. I’ve gotten to 70 but it’s how we get to get to the draft. I’d be like, what do you guys think? think? He’ll go to day two or where do you guys think he went?_
_Stephen Means (01:13:22.984)_
_We were being facetious._
_Stephen Means (01:13:29.374)_
_Yeah._
_Stephen Means (01:13:34.785)_
_Mind you, the number was probably like 16 or something like that._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:13:38.161)_
_That’s exactly what it was. Yeah, I think it’s pretty open to how he wants to approach it. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way, but I think this is guy who’s gonna go top 10, I think, without much hesitation._
_Stephen Means (01:13:52.676)_
_I actually I was looking up like what does his brother do and it’s not it’s apples to oranges right there down the same position the drop status and stock was not necessarily the same Josh Downs is a third round draft pick Josh did the_
_I did and then I lost it. He ran the 40 He did the vert and He did one other thing. I lost it. I lost it Sorry, he did the 40 yard dash the vertical jump and the broad jump At this at the NFL combine and it was pretty good. He had a pretty good combine Miss 40 was 448. He’s a slot guy. So it’s 38 and a half vertical jump in a 10-11 broad jump. All right, Josh down is a pretty good athlete_
_He’s just smaller than his brother. He’s him and Lorenzo style shaking hands like really good athletes. Our brothers are freaks._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:14:34.958)_
_Mm-hmm._
_Stephen Means (01:14:44.247)_
_I think if I was Caleb. Do you think a team is going to be like no, you have to run the 40 at some point between here or pro day or on your 30 visit? Like do you think anybody’s gonna? Like be like you have to do this._
_Andrew Gillis (01:14:55.822)_
_Like I don’t, I don’t think the Bengals are looking at him going like, if you don’t run the 40, we’re not taking you. Like, I don’t think that’s, I don’t think that’s likely._
_Stephen Means (01:15:04.483)_
_Because that’s the thing you brought. Kyle Hamilton example has been the thing that’s been out there of Kyle Hamilton. One of the reasons he fell is because he didn’t run a grade 40. It’s like he’s six foot five and he can cover. Who cares what he runs in a straight line? But I do think that him, Derwin Davis, Jamal Adams, a little bit less because Jamal Adams was the top 10 pick and then they turned him into a linebacker. Because all he did was play in the box._
_I don’t think Caleb needs to run a 40 at all. If he wants to run it, then by all means, if you want to show how fast you are, show how fast you are. But I don’t think he should do anything but position drills at both spots. And I’m only saying that because he’s not a quarterback. So I do think he has to move a little bit just so teams can see him a little bit. And he’s going to have plenty of time between pro day, between the combine, between those 30 visits where he’s going to get on board._
_and in the film room with these guys. And also everybody already knows how much of a football genius he is. And so I don’t know if he’s going to be, you know, it’s not going to be breaking news. If it’s like, if Caleb Downs goes into a whiteboard and just breaks down something and I was like, whoa, he’s smart. He’s like, yeah, no duh. We knew that. We’ve known that for three years. He’s a freaking genius. But I think he should just do for position girls and call it that. And in terms of how high I think he can go._
_I think the Cleveland Browns need to draft Caleb Downs and keep it pushing._
_I think that the teams above those. Where the Browns are are going to fall into the team need category of things like I don’t know if I get what you’re saying, Gillis with the Cardinals, but what if they can just take Francis Moragoa? And pair that with Paris Johnson and now your tackle situation is set for the next decade. And it’s like, OK, Kyler, you have no reason to leave the pocket, so if you do, we know you the problem._
_Stephen Means (01:16:59.517)_
_I Tennessee._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:16:59.589)_
_He won’t be the one working on those tackles._
_Stephen Means (01:17:04.547)_
_No, probably not. Yeah, that was the thing. This is it. It’s like, OK, if you can’t stand in the pocket and get the ball, these two receivers, because you’re well protected, then we’re going to get a younger court. Then we’re going to look at that 2027 quarterback class. And one of those guys is going to be Arizona Cardinal. I think that Titans are in we need foundational mode right now, and that might just be grabbing an edge rusher, whether it’s Ruben Bane or David Bailey or one of those guys. Who’s five?_
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:17:04.891)_
_Maybe this year._
_Stephen Means (01:17:34.465)_
_The Giants are no checking Cardinal Tate._
_Stephen Means (01:17:39.405)_
_So there’s not. I’ll be every bog draft you see says Cardinal Tate’s gonna, has already picked out his apartment._
_Andrew Gillis (01:17:39.534)_
_You sure about that?_
_Andrew Gillis (01:17:47.242)_
_I pulled one up as you were talking. This has Caleb down to the giants at five. Yeah. ESPN who is this? This is field Yates. Yeah._
_Stephen Means (01:17:52.097)_
_Really? That’s fun. That’s fun. Okay, well, either I mean, five, six, seven._
_Andrew Gillis (01:18:00.194)_
_Carnell Tate to Washington at seven. Jordan Tyson eight to New Orleans._
_Stephen Means (01:18:02.66)_
_That’s you speaking out of Yeah, I’m shocked that you found the one that sends the best player in the draft to your team. I just think it is. Yeah, but I probably yeah. But anyway, in that range, then five to eight is probably where I think he’s going to go. And if he is still on the board at six, the Browns, the Browns just need stuff like I don’t know if they’re not going to fix their offense unless they get a quarterback. so since they’re not getting Fernando Mendoza, and since Dante Moore decided he wanted to live in_
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:18:05.324)_
_shocked that you found that mock drive._
_Andrew Gillis (01:18:10.252)_
_Wrong offensive player._
_Stephen Means (01:18:32.319)_
_Eugene organ for another year. How about you just keep adding to a defense that’s already pretty good? I don’t know what if your layers of defense were. The kid who just won defensive rookie of the year. But here’s your levels of defense if I’m the Browns. Miles Garrett, Mason Graham and Mike Hall Jr._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:18:45.169)_
_Swishing there._
_Stephen Means (01:18:55.329)_
_the reigning defensive rookie of the year and a healthy JOK._
_Stephen Means (01:19:05.869)_
_Denzel Ward_
_Jeremiah Ozu. Get this, since you’re making the face._
_Andrew Gillis (01:19:13.887)_
_No, I don’t know if he’s ever going to play football again. That’s what I meant by that. I don’t know if he’s... I think it might be._
_Stephen Means (01:19:19.937)_
_Yeah, I know. listen, we’re trying to bring hope right now. We’re not talking about downside. We’re bringing hope._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:26.907)_
_How dare you mention injury._
_Stephen Means (01:19:28.515)_
_Yeah, man, what’s wrong with you? This is fantasy world. This is the offseason. We live in fantasy and then Denzel Ward as your corner and Caleb Downs. And the LSU guy whose name is escaping right now is your safety. I think that’s a pretty good team defensively offensively._
_Andrew Gillis (01:19:41.23)_
_Just dropped Ruben Bain. Just take... I understand what you’re saying about that defense. It’s like, screw it. Just take Myles Garrett and put somebody else on the other side._
_Stephen Means (01:19:51.756)_
_Yeah, but they their defensive line is already awesome. I don’t know if they need that as much. Also, also to the Jets point of taking Caleb, I think it’s hilarious that a team whose head coach is a defensive box coach by trade didn’t have a single interception._
_Andrew Gillis (01:19:58.894)_
_Who cares? Ruben Dane Rock._
_Stefan Krajisnik (01:20:10.981)_
_I don’t know how you don’t accidentally get one._
_Stephen Means (01:20:12.301)_
_That’s yeah, like they just kind of happen sometimes. Their schedule was not that hard. Six. OK, so that’s it. Those are this 11 today on defense. was Caden, Curry, Caden, McDonald, Sonny Styles, Arvore, Reece, David, Nick, Nelson, Lindell, Styles, Caleb Downs. They might go six or seven and. Maybe get to seven and seven defensively while on offense, I think it’s a little bit more intriguing. Like I think we’re confident about two and the other two. It’s kind of like, OK, we’ll see. It’s kind of up in the air there, but get the text six one four three five._
_3152 week for trial 399 after that we’re checking on Michigan tomorrow just because I don’t think we’ve done that on this pod since they’ve had all those changes and stuff on do like a deep dive on the site. Leave a copy of the flash OSU and so we’re going to dive into that and kind of just discuss the state of the rivalry heading into another new era of the rivalry because Michigan has a new head coach once again and also Ohio State is heading into 2026 as the victor._
_and the rivalry and it’s been a long time since that’s been the case. So we’ll be checking in on that. Steph Montana to the combine next week for us. We’re not going to go a full brigade because it’s not as many people. So we don’t need to do that. Gillis is going to go to some recruiting camps and talk to some people. So that should be fun. And then spring football is right around the corner. So we’ll start breaking down positions next week. 614-350-315. Two weeks for trial, 399. After that for Stephon Krasnick. Andrew Gillis, I’m Stephen Means. Talk to you guys later._