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Rbm Roundtable: Debating Kevin Thelwell’s legacy at Everton

There were always going to be big changes forthcoming at Everton this summer given that it would mark the first offseason since The Friedkin Group bought out Farhad Moshiri’s stake in the Toffees. Steps are already underway to appoint a permanent Chief Executive Officer (CEO) with Leeds head honcho Angus Kinnear tipped to step into the role.

Last week news broke that Director of Football Kevin Thelwell would be leaving the club after the expiry of his three-year contract this summer. Interestingly, the wording coming out from the press is that Thelwell’s departure is part of a restructuring effort at the club by the new owners, which doesn’t necessarily mean that the Blues will continue with the DoF model, which is still relatively new to the club following the appointment of Steve Walsh less than ten years ago.

A couple of candidates have been mentioned as likely to take over as DoF, with David Weir leading the race. He is currently in the same role at Brighton & Hove Albion, and the former Everton captain under David Moyes has been credited with having a good relationship with the manager.

Another name that has popped up in recent years is Dan Ashworth, who is currently unemployed having been let go by Manchester United after high profile moves from Newcastle United and Brighton before that.

The RBM crew had a brief discussion about Thelwell, what he has achieved so far and where the club goes next.

Everton 22-23 Transfers

What are your thoughts on the departure of Kevin Thelwell?

Tom - I wouldn’t have been too disappointed if he stayed on, but I understand why TFG have opted for a fresh start. Given they are undertaking a thorough review of all levels of the club it makes sense to bring in their own DoF (or equivalent if there is a restructure) this summer.

Geoff - Hardly surprising that TFG would want to change as the opportunity to do so (without pay-off) is there. A bit harsh maybe if you looked at the impressive figurework of his deals. I’m not sure how easy his relationships have been with Messrs Lampard, Dyche and now Moyes but I suspect there has been some conflict of opinion given the signings made and the manager refusing to play them.

I’d have hoped that we would not be in the position of frittering money away by hiring players who the manager doesn’t fancy. How much of that unease was Thelwell’s fault we’ll never know. On balance and for the next 2 years you have to look at how we’ll work with Moyes as head coach though.

Peter - This is an odd one for me which smells of a clearout of previous staff in order for Friedkin (TFG) to put their stamp on the club in all aspects of the business. I think in the end, Colin Chong may be the only person who makes it through the change process because of his excellent work with the stadium and his work as an interim chairman since the sale of the club. Dyche had to go and although Moyes has had an excellent start, I am not wholly convinced that there isn’t a big name manager being lined up in the wings.

His signings were mixed. In the early days he brought in Vinagre, Dele, Maupay and Rondon which were all ridiculously disappointing. However, these were balanced by some excellent business for Tarkowski, Garner, Mangala, Ndiaye, and Onana. Last summer, he made the call to keep Branthwaite over Onana and that was huge.

Everton FC v Crystal Palace - Premier League Photo by Jan Kruger/Getty Images

John - Hardly surprising. TFG are here with a new broom and will do things their own way with their own people. Perhaps it could be seen as harsh but Everton has often been guilty of showing too much sentiment rather than making a business decision.

Kevin - Mixed feelings. Kevin Thelwell has taken a lot of criticism from elements of the fanbase, oftentimes misplaced and rarely with any context applied, given the enormous financial challenges he faced when joining the club, a little over three years ago, at a time when Farhad Moshiri’s money had dried up and a PSR iceberg was looming. A lot of people focus purely on just one aspect of the Director of Football role — namely player recruitment, but he’s headed up a reorganization of the entire football structure at the club, including scouting and the academy, which were both in serious need of attention.

As regards the first team, he focused recruitment away from the scattergun approach which Everton had employed since Moshiri arrived - involving high fees splashed on older players, who were handed big wages, which were unsustainable given the club’s finances - and towards signing younger talent. If TFG have an able replacement in mind, then it’s their prerogative to make a change, as they didn’t hire Thelwell, but it’s a pity that he won’t have the chance to operate in a more friendly economic environment.

Calvin - Surprised, to be honest. There have been lots of changes behind the scenes at Everton in the last few years and I would have thought that TFG would welcome some continuity, especially in an area as important as player recruitment.

It might be an unpopular opinion in many quarters, but I am personally a fan of Thelwell. How he’s gone about his business in a difficult situation where we have no money to spend and anything we do being under all kinds of Premier League scrutiny is quite impressive. There is a certain demographic of player he has targeted, with a premium on under-utilized or neglected players who he can procure on the cheap or via loans. Beyond that, he’s been able to keep the Blues’ net spend in the positive region while giving managers under him just about enough resources to keep us in the top flight until we make the move to the new stadium.

Everton 23-24 Transfers

Does Thelwell leave the club in better shape than when he arrived in Feb ‘22?

Tom - Yes, and I think the stats prove it. He has reduced the wage bill and reduced the average age, all while keeping the team competitive (just) and making a profit to stave off financial oblivion.

He has had to work in extremely tough conditions and I would understand if he feels frustrated at leaving just as the purse strings are loosened. Not all of his signings were hits, but we have to remember the club didn’t have the finances to get to get their top targets, so had to work their way down the list, often on deals with minimal down payments.

Geoff - Undoubtedly yes. Some outgoing deals like Richarlison and Gordon were to enable survival but to look at getting decent money for Kean, Iwobi, Godfrey and home-growns Dobbin, Simms and Cannon is impressive. He also turned healthy profits on Onana and Gray. Cheap or free deals to sign Tarkowski, Garner, Ndiaye, Iroegbunam and the return of Gueye also impressive. There’s the odd little stinker (sorry, Neal Maupay) but over a three year period spending (on paper at least) £95m less than you recouped is nice work.

Peter - I would say that he did the work that was required in a period of transition for the club. He arrived with a slew of big contracts on the books and by the end of this season that huge burden will have been removed. He was required to balance the books and the sales of Gordon, Richarlison and Onana met that need.

As for the overall structure and his 200 point plan, perhaps he can send us an update list as he heads out the door. Most of it wouldn’t be visible for the average bloke but if the plan was to shift our development program to be like Brighton where players are developed and sold or players are bought on the cheap and sold, then this is well underway. Whether I like that type of setup is a totally different thing.

Everton FC v Crystal Palace - Premier League Photo by Naomi Baker/Getty Images

John - For me, yes. Thelwell has overseen the most turbulent and unsure Everton period for years, perhaps in history. PSR, inept ownership and a fanbase continually starved of success and peace of mind. Year on year he has made a profit and, while he has overseen some questionable acquisitions of players, he has also seen some shrewd incomings on his watch (Tarkowski, Garner, etc.)

Plus, anyone that can sell Anthony ‘look at me, I’m a superstar’ Gordon for £45.6m and acquire Iliman Ndiaye for less than £20m certainly has some acumen. I wish him well.

Kevin - Undoubtedly. He’s worked diligently to improve Everton’s near-impossible to rectify PSR position, an onerous, thankless task that no fan should need reminding of it, given how this played out last season. Vital player trading profits were raised from the sales of Richarlison, Anthony Gordon, Moise Kean, Alex Iwobi, Amadou Onana, Demarai Gray and Ben Godfrey — €240m in total, in addition to almost €30m from academy players and youngsters like Tom cannon, Ellis Simms, Lewis Dobbin and Niels Nkounkou.

Over a three period, those efforts added €270m to the club’s accounts. In some cases, the departing players also took with them significant wages and let’s not forget that the club will bank an unspecified amount from Marseille - thought to be at least €5m - for Neal Maupay, whose contract expires in the summer.

Despite operating within a financial straightjacket, Thelwell was responsible for bringing in important players, such as Idrissa Gueye, James Tarkowski, Iliman Ndiaye, Dwight McNeil, Onana, James Garner, Jake O’Brien and Beto, as well as those who’ve contributed a lot of minutes, in Jack Harrison and Ashley Young. Others, in Jesper Lindstrom, Carlos Alcaraz, Tim Iroegbunam and Youssef Chermiti may also prove to be shrewd signings.

Calvin - It’s an emphatic yes for me. He’s certainly had some misses over the years, but then again, who hasn’t? Given the Toffees’ light scouting department, he’s been able to pick up a number of players who have flown under the radar. In the meantime, he’s hung on to players who continue to provide value while increasing their equity, and sold off assets smartly to keep things ticking over as well.

Everton 24-25 Transfers

Looks like TFG want to bring in their own man for the position, with Weir and Ashworth among the leading candidates.

Tom - David Weir would be a popular choice given his association with the club and likely good relationship with David Moyes. By all accounts he has done a great job at Brighton, as did Ashworth. But part of that success was the structure around them. Everton have not got that structure right since opting for a DoF model in 2016. That has to be TFG’s priority this summer.

Geoff - As for Weir, he had a 7 year player attachment to Everton, 4 under Moyes so he has a knowledge of the club and has worked as Technical Director at Brighton for 3 years. I’d have to say that period has seen massive sales of the likes of McAllister, Sanchez, Caicedo, Bissouma, Cucurella, Trossard and Maupay (thanks a lot) and virtually all that money reinvested in players of whom I would only count 3 as successes (Joao Pedro, Verbruggen and Minteh). Balanced the books maybe but I’m underwhelmed by the calibre of recruits.

As for Ashworth, if you ignore the embarrassingly bad summer of recruitment for Manchester United when the club was, frankly, desperate, his record at Brighton was good either unearthing or recruiting cheaply the likes of Trossard, Lamptey, Caicedo, Ferguson, Welbeck, Cucurella and Mitoma and at Newcastle he’d brought in Minteh and although paying a lot of money he recruited Isak. I’d say he’s worth considering, I would not judge him on his stint at United.

Personally I think the next 4 windows (all under Moyes) will be critical to the vast rebuild of the squad so Moyes must have the final say whoever is DoF. We cannot afford to have players the manager doesn’t fancy nor get ourselves into that ridiculous position. I’ll be one of only a few maybe who would say it but personally I would give control to Moyes and boost the scouting network. It’s a brave decision to revert to an out-of-fashion model but we have a bit of a (very good) “old school” manager.

Peter - David Weir, not unlike Moyes, has roots in the club and is another change in the rebuild. Is he better than Thelwell, I am not sure if it is that easy to assess. Different clubs bring different cultures and recruiting systems. It is really comparing apples and oranges. Also, Marcel Brands arrived at Everton like the Messiah and we know how that ended.

Everton FC v Arsenal FC - Premier League Photo by Simon Stacpoole/Offside/Offside via Getty Images

John - I loved David Weir as a player but does it work effectively being the boss of a man who managed him for the majority of his playing tenure at Goodison? I’m not sure it is a dynamic that would work.

Dan Ashworth. I don’t believe his legacy and reputation should be judged on his time at Manchester United who are in genuine danger of becoming more of a car crash than Everton have been over the years. Periods at both Newcastle and Brighton seem to have been more successful, with the latter in particular heralded as a club with an excellent recruitment network. How much of that Ashworth was involved with, I do not know.

It will be a gamble and risk whoever gets the job, but I placed my faith in TFG.

Kevin - I’d speculate that TFG - given how they’ve operated at Roma - would want a DoF in place at Everton, but I’m uncertain if going after either Dan Ashworth or David Weir, the former and current occupant of that role at Brighton, would be the correct move. It’s well known that Seagulls owner, Tony Bloom, has long utilized a data-driven system of his own devising to identify players and that this lies at the heart of the club’s much-admired recruitment model — so how responsible have Ashworth and Weir been?

Given the players who the Blues have signed, or tried to sign over the last few years, there appears to be little wrong with the club’s scouting and data analysis department. If TFG intend to give David Moyes a more active role - and in particular a decisive one - in transfers, then I feel that this is a retrograde move and ignores how much football has changed since the Scot was last here.

The days of the do-everything manager of old are long gone. In particular, if it is to be Weir, then it has to be recognized what a potentially-awkward situation this could be, with Moyes’ superior at the club being a man who once played for him. I don’t like the dynamic at all.

Calvin - It’s not a surprise really that the Friedkins might want to bring in their own man for the role. Whether that will be Weir, Ashworth or anyone else remains to be seen, but I don’t necessarily see them going away from the DoF (or more commonly on the continent, Sporting Director) model.

That said, if this is a move being made to appease David Moyes then I do have a problem with it. Moyes might have been in charge of all aspects of the game when he was last here, but while he does still have a keen scouting eye, he was not great at it at West Ham and the demands of the modern game are such that it’s very challenging for a full-time manager to also make key contributions on the player recruitment fund.

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