CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talks podcast, hosts Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor dive into the strategic decision-making involved in fouling during close games.
Takeaways:
The Cavs are on a 13-game winning streak with a 53-10 record.
Kenny Atkinson emphasizes finding ways to win, especially in tough games.
Evan Mobley’s evolving skill set is crucial for the team’s success.
De’Andre Hunter’s versatility adds depth to the Cavs' lineup.
Free throw shooting has become a significant factor in close games.
The Cavs' aggressive playstyle leads to more free throw opportunities.
Kenny Atkinson’s coaching adapts based on game situations and matchups.
The importance of player roles and contributions in late-game scenarios.
Fouling strategies can be effective in managing close game situations.
The Cavs' depth allows for various lineup combinations depending on the opponent.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands (00:01.019)
What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talks podcast. We are coming to you guys after the Cavs' latest win, 118-117. And Chris, I think this game was ugly. I don’t think I have a whole lot of nice things to say about how anybody played, except for two players that I’ll get to later.
So I’m gonna get the good stuff out of the way so we can have a reality check when it comes to the team. The Cavs are 53 and 10. Obviously that, they are the ninth team in NBA history to begin a season 53 and 10 or better. Five of the previous eight teams won an NBA title with that record. Three teams that didn’t win the title, the 2015, 2016 Warriors, they lost to the Cavs. The 2015, 2016...
San Antonio Spurs, obviously the Cavs won that year as well, and 2019-2020 Bucks with a season pause because of COVID and the pandemic. The magic number for the Cavs to clinch a top seed in the Eastern Conference is 12, and prior to this season, the longest winning streak in Cavs history was games. They’ve now met or exceeded that mark twice this season.
after tonight’s win marks their 13th win in a row. Obviously we know that they started the season 15 and 0. Chris, getting into the nuances of this game, I mean, what is going on with the sleepwalking team? Obviously four games and five nights. It’s been a long trek for this team, but I don’t think we want to make excuses, especially as there are only 19 games left in the season.
Chris (02:12.672)
No, I don’t think they’re excuses. think sometimes Ethan people confuse excuses with explanations. And sometimes there’s logical explanations to explain the reason why a team doesn’t perform at its best. It is going to be a very difficult march for the Caps. Let’s just be honest about it. It’s not necessarily about the quality of opponent. It’s about the grueling schedule that is going to face them.
And every single March, it’s the same thing. But when you play 16 games in 30 days with 10 of those coming on the road, you’re not always going to be at your best. You’re not always going to have it. In the words of Kenny Atkinson tonight, the Cavs, their energy level was probably half tank for a majority of the game. in the words of Donovan Mitchell. Yeah, we, we won. Yeah, that was, we won. won.
So he didn’t have a lot to say about this one either. I think everybody understands that the Cavs did not perform to their best tonight. The Cavs played down to the competition and they were still able to get away with it because they stiffened up their defense late in the game. And because they took 51 free throws, the Hornets could not guard them down the stretch in late game situations without following.
That’s the most free throws that the Cavs have taken as a team in nearly 20 years. So, you know, there were things that they did not do well for a majority of this game, but when they needed to make plays down the stretch, when they needed to come up with timely defensive stops, they were able to do it. So, like I said, there isn’t too much to talk about from tonight’s game. I think there are going to be more of these types of games.
as we get down the stretch of the season. I don’t think in any way are they alarming. I don’t think in any way did they speak to the Cavs have a problem or a weakness that can be exploited by another team once you get into the playoffs. In the words of Kenny Atkinson, this is the time of year where it’s just find a way. Find a way to win. They talk about March in the NCAA tournament, survive in advance. Well, when it comes to the NBA,
Chris (04:37.142)
It’s just about finding a way at this point.
Ethan Sands (04:42.023)
Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to characterize it as this team has done this all season, but like when we talk about the last stretch of games that they’ve had, like this has been a recurring theme for them. Just again, finding a way in the fourth quarter. Tonight it was Donovan Mitchell having a double digit performance in the fourth quarter, but also knowing that there were moments where
Chris (04:53.88)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (05:10.683)
Evan Mobley had a huge play. Deandre Hunter had huge plays. Those are the two that really stuck out to me. Donovan Mitchell had 12 points on eight of 10 from the free throw line in the fourth quarter. But I think, and also that we’ll get into a little bit about the free throw shooting and how they simply have not been good enough at times when it comes to getting and making the free throws or the free ones.
at the charity strike. But Evan Mobley having that sidestep back, back, sidestep three pointer was huge for the cows, right? And then obviously the move itself is what really caught everybody’s eye. Like he’s done that in practice. He’s done that on the side in warmups and stuff. But to see him go through that progression, even if it was more so because the shot clock was winding down.
I think him adding those different skill sets to his bag are what is going to push him over the top as an offensive player because it creates a level of unpredictability that defenders just can’t hang with. then Deandre Hunter having the put back and just big time rebounds and big time plays, I think is something we’re coming accustomed to. And this team obviously hasn’t lost since they’ve made the trade for Deandre Hunter.
Chris (06:40.172)
I think the other important thing from tonight’s game, Ethan, is that Kenny Atkinson showed that sometimes he’s going to finish games with Jared Allen still. Sometimes a game is going to call for Jared Allen to be out there. And when the Cavs are struggling on the defensive end of the floor in the fourth quarter and they don’t have the same kind of rim protection and he feels like the opponent is getting too many drives to the basket, too many finishes around the rim, they’re still
an opportunity for this team to go to Jared. Like what makes the Cavs so dangerous when it comes to a potential seven game series in the playoffs is that not every single series calls for the same thing. Not every single series calls for them to play a specific style. What a luxury it is for the Cavs to be able to at times if they have to use a closing lineup with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley together.
or feel like they can be just as effective playing in a different kind of way with DeAndre Hunter, Max Druse, and Evan Mobley as the three front court players, or Evan Mobley, Dean Wade, and DeAndre Hunter as the three front court players. It just shows the versatility that the Cavs have within their lineup construction that whatever the game is going to call for,
They feel like they have an answer for that. They feel like they have a lineup solution to that. And Kenny Atkinson said before the game tonight that, you know, this is the time of year for the Cavs where it’s not necessarily about installing more stuff. It’s about streamlining stuff. And it’s about, you know, just figuring things out in late game situations. And he said one of the things that he’s really focused on as the playoffs get closer and closer is
How do the Cavs execute in critical moments? Now you can sit here and you can say, well, a majority of their execution in the fourth quarter came at the free throw line. It’s true. More than half of their points came at the free throw line. But they repeatedly put the Charlotte Hornets in a bind on the defensive end of the floor where, you know, Charlotte had no choice but to fall to prevent shots or to try and keep guys in front of them.
Chris (09:04.46)
or try and take the actions away from the Cavs that they were running offensively. So it did feel like their execution was where it needed to be in the fourth quarter. And a big part of that with Jared Allen. Jared Allen was on the floor. The Cavs needed to play big tonight. And credit to Jared, somebody who has been out of the closing lineup basically since the All-Star break in meaningful games, in close games. He has his number called.
And he goes out there and he’s a big reason why the Cavs won the game. He’s a big reason why the Cavs limited Charlotte to three made shots over the final 538 of this game. So it just shows the depth. It just shows the versatility of the Cavs that they can use a bunch of different looks in late game situations, depending on what, what the situation calls for. depending on the team that they’re going to be playing against.
And it just shows that there are going to be some nights still that when the Cavs are looking for a closing lineup, that Kenny believes that Jarrett needs to be a part of that. And it’s not going to be every game, but there are still some where Jarrett’s importance really, really shows itself in crunch time moments. And tonight was certainly one of those. I thought he was great down the stretch for the Cavs.
Ethan Sands (10:31.045)
And Chris, you mentioned like Kenny Atkinson is not necessarily adding new things to what they want to do. And this kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier in the season when he was like, we’re like 70 % added everything into this offense. Now it feels like they, he might not necessarily have everything implemented, but when you’re adding an entirely new piece and Deandre Hunter and Javante Green fits into that category as well. And they’re still trying to learn the
different things that are already in place that the calves have become vastly familiar with. It’s like, okay, well, if our fifth option, or in some cases, our third option, isn’t able to have plays ran for him, because he simply doesn’t know the plays, that makes things a lot more difficult. And this is not knocking DeAndre, because we’ve heard Kenyakas appraise him for being able to jump in and learn schemes and all these different things. But it does...
pose an interesting question of how the Cavs are going to operate in the playoffs, how they’re going to be ready to run these different plays. Obviously, there’s still 19 games left. They’re still going to have limited practice availability and then obviously into the playoffs when they get the first round by basically when they play in the playing tournament, you get to wait and find out who you play. So I just think there’s going to be time for him to get adjusted.
Chris (11:51.832)
Hmm.
Ethan Sands (11:57.895)
But I’m interested to see if Deandre Hunter is a guy that Kenny Atkinson would rather just have him be free flowing and not necessarily run plays for him rather than just having plays set up. that’s kind of something that he talked about with Darius and Kenny wanting to call plays for Darius and Donovan having kind of his pulse on the offense whenever he’s running it. So it’s different things for different guys, different strokes for different folks. What do you think about that, Chris, and how
that has developed over his time being here.
Chris (12:31.03)
Ethan, I just think De’Andre is a blender. I think he’s a guy who can find a way to make an impact no matter what role you put him in. Right? There weren’t a lot of plays called down the stretch for him tonight. but he was there to get an offensive rebound following a Donovan Mitchell miss that put the Cavs in front for good. And then on the next defensive possession, he was there crouching down in a stance and guarding.
Miles Bridges who had a career high 46 points and he stopped Miles Bridges. He stripped the ball away from Miles Bridges. That was a critical moment in the game and Deandre is just somebody who throughout the course of his career whether it was in college or in the NBA he just finds a way to make winning plays. He finds a way to surround himself with winning situations and his game translates to winning and that was a big draw.
when the Cavs were doing all their research on DeAndre, when they were doing all their background checks on DeAndre, they were talking about his on court fit, his off court fit. They kept going back to his pedigree and they saw him as a winning basketball player. And I know that’s cliche and I know an organization’s always going to say that, but it’s played itself out that kind of way because it’s not always about DeAndre and what DeAndre does.
Whether he makes shots, whether he doesn’t make shots. Whether he gets rebounds or he doesn’t get rebounds. Whether he gets assists or doesn’t get assists. Whether he has play calls for him or not. You know what I mean? It’s about how he has elevated this team. The options that he has given to this team. The style that this team is able to play because of him. You know what I mean? Like in some of these late game situations,
they’re able to downsize and take Jared Allen off the floor because the Cavs don’t feel like they’re losing defensively. Because they have Deandre Hunter next to Evan Mobley. And sometimes it’s Max Druse and sometimes it’s Isaac Kukoro. Sometimes it’s Dean Wade. Maybe it’s going to be Sam Merrill, depending on a situation. But the two components are Evan Mobley and Deandre Hunter in the front court and those guys being switchable.
Chris (14:52.768)
and those guys both being able to hold their own inside, protect the pain, guard inside, guard outside, finish possessions with rebounds, play with strength and physicality. Like the beauty of having Jarrett and Evan together is what it brings to this organization defensively. That’s always been the common theme. But if you feel like you can go to a lineup,
where you take Jarrett off and you still are the same caliber defense, you gain so much more offensively. And that’s part of the reason why in some of these games against Boston, against Portland, against Miami, it hasn’t been Jarrett Allen out there. Because the Cavs needed the spacing, because the Cavs needed the shooting, because the Cavs needed the offensive potential.
And if DeAndre is going to continue to make winning plays and do these things at both ends of the floor, where he just finds himself in the middle of the action and what matters most to this team, then it’s going to be hard for Kenny Atkinson to ever justify taking him off the floor in those kinds of situations.
So again, I don’t think it’s so much about Deandre and his production and Deandre and his role within the offense. It’s just what his presence allows the Cavs to do and what his presence has meant to the Cavs success since his arrival.
Ethan Sands (16:31.975)
And I think that’s important to note, especially when you’re talking about closing minutes, because the conversation as soon as DeAndre Hunter was traded for was, does he get added to the starting lineup? And I think Kenny Atkinson in this CAS organization has seen what he’s been able to do in those closing minutes. And I think that’s more important than anything because you still get to mediate his minutes and figure out where he fits in best. You like him coming off the bench with Ty Jerome and having a spark element.
Chris (16:42.669)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (17:00.285)
when it comes to that. And then you also like Max Struce next to the Core Four. But obviously in the last couple of games, Max Struce and the Core Four haven’t had the same productivity as what we’re used to. I think what we’re continuously learning about Kenny Atkinson is he’ll say that there is going to be changes made. There is going to be this and that that we have to monitor and keep an eye on. But the fact is, like, it’s changing in game.
It’s changing based on matchup. It’s changing based on what is happening throughout the course of the game. It’s not necessarily like we’re going to change it game by game, but if something is calling for it to make an adjustment, he is willing to do that. And that’s been something that we’ve seen with the Jared Allen minutes when we’ve seen with the Max Struce minutes, he played just 21 minutes tonight. Dean Wade, Isaac Okoro, Ty Jerome, Sam Merrow, these rotational pieces.
Chris (17:38.104)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (17:55.399)
based on what the calves need, based on what they need from their star guys or what they don’t need from their star guys in every given scenario has been a key piece, a key aspect of what Kenny Atkinson has been able to do with his rotations and switching it out. And what he loves to say when we ask about a decision he makes is they all understand, they get it, right? They get that things can fluctuate, they’re flexible, they’re not necessarily stuck in the mud.
And that’s what makes this team again, versatile, unpredictable, and has led to this 13 game win streak.
Chris (18:31.83)
So here’s the thing about DeAndre Hunter too, Ethan, is that there was a moment in the fourth quarter, it was right around the six minute mark, and one of the Cavs players, was either Donovan Mitchell or Darius Garland, they used a high screen, they drove to the basket, the defense kind of collapsed on them, and one of them kicked it into the corner for Isaac Okoro, who was wide open in the corner, and Isaac missed the shot, right?
And it’s not to say that he hasn’t hit those shots throughout the course of the year, or he’s always going to miss those shots when it comes to the playoffs, but at that moment, Deandre Hunter came off the bench. Because Kenny Atkinson was saying to himself, hey look, if that same situation presents itself, and that’s Deandre over there in the corner, what does that mean for Donovan on the next drive? What does that mean for Darius on the next drive? It means that finish for those guys,
is a lot easier because the defense is just not going to leave DeAndre Hunter. They’re not. They’re going to stay attached to him because they understand his reputation. They understand the big shots that he’s already hit during his time with the Cavs. So I think it was the next possession. They ran something very, very similar and it led to Donovan Mitchell getting free throws. So it’s just like those kinds of things that Kenny Atkinson is looking at.
throughout the course of the game. And those are the things that De’Andre, those are the ways that De’Andre can impact this team without even scoring a basket. He didn’t score on that next possession, right? But his presence alone in the offense, you know, it opened up a driving lane for Donovan Mitchell to get fouled. And then on the previous or on the next possession after that one,
You know, DeAndre was involved in the action with Jared Allen and he assisted on a Jared Allen layout. So it’s just all these different things that Kenny Atkinson can now do with this lineup. It’s he’s still trying to figure it out and he’s trying to experiment with different things in different situations because the only way that you’re going to get these answers, what works, what doesn’t work, who works best with who.
Chris (20:57.368)
You have to try these things. You have to try these things in game situations to figure out, are they going to be successful? Are they going to be a failure? Because I don’t think coming into this year, that anybody, including Kenny, thought that one of their best two-man groupings was going to be Sam Merrill and George Niang before George was traded. But guess what? It turned out to be.
because they kept using it over and over and over again and they kept seeing signs of it working over and over and over again. So those are the things that Kenny is still trying to figure out when it comes to De’Andre specifically, because it’s so early still into this process. It’s not necessarily, you know, where does he like his shots or how can I best utilize him? It’s who does he play best alongside? Who does his skill set blend best with?
Is it him and Donovan together? Is it him and Darius together? Is it him and Ty together? Is it him surrounded by the core four? All those things. That’s part of what the, the, remaining games on this. I mean, obviously they want to win and they want to secure the number one seed in the Eastern conference. But part of what this final month is about is getting answers to those kinds of things.
Is De’Andre better in a switch scheme? Is he better in a hedge scheme? Is he better in a zone? Can he be like a zone buster that we move to the elbow extended, that little opening in a zone when Miami goes to it, when Indiana could go to like all these different things he’s trying to figure out with De’Andre. And while he’s still figuring these things out, De’Andre is finding a way to make a tangible difference for this team.
Ethan Sands (22:54.097)
Yeah, and we’ve seen it a lot already from DeAndre. And I think we can not 100 % say that this is the best option that they could have gone with. We still got to see what happens in the playoffs. like, is a, this is a trade that I think the Cavs will remember when it comes to the playoffs and how they stack up against different teams. But I want to get to this last storyline, probably the most important storyline of this game.
Free throws Free throws man would look like the Cavs took 35 free throws the other night and then they get to take 51 tonight like that is the most since 2007 that they’ve taken in a game and I know I was kind of getting on the the guys for their free throw numbers this season Obviously outside of Donovan Mitchell. I think they missed two
tonight, but Donovan Mitchell was 12 of 18. Like, and I know he was getting on himself after the game because he hates missing one free throw might not as much like much more when it’s six. But Chris, what was allowing me? Well, first, let’s start here. The Cavs earlier this season had complained about not getting to the free throw line, right? Because they have some of the most drives in the NBA.
And they attack the rim relentlessly, even if it is for driving kicks and all these different things, they’re still getting hacked on these drives. What do you think about the fact that the Cavs have had combined 80 free throw attempts in like the last couple of games? And the fact that they have been getting more respect from the referees maybe? What do you think that is? And does that come with the territory of them being one of the best teams?
in the NBA.
Chris (24:52.844)
I think it’s the style that they play. And I think if you have an attack mentality, if you have a drive to the basket mentality, eventually you feel like you’re going to get rewarded with those things. And they’re very difficult to guard. You know, the teams in the NBA that are going to get fouled are the ones that defenses feel like we’ve got to do things to try and prevent them from scoring baskets. We got to do things to try and prevent them.
from getting into the rhythm of their offense. You know, the whole thing about 10 years ago when playing against the Golden State Warriors was be physical, be physical off the ball, grab them, hold them, do whatever it takes to try and take them out of their rhythm because they don’t like those kinds of things. So when it comes to playing against the Cavs, there’s so many random cuts, right? There’s so much movement within the half court offense.
There are so many guys that can pass, dribble, shoot, play make for others, score at three levels. Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland are very, very difficult to contain for any defender. So when you have the Cavs functioning at such a high level consistently on the offensive end of the floor, it’s going to continuously put a defense in a bind and they’re going to be a step behind.
or they’re going to feel like they have to grab or get more physical or try and fight through screens in a different kind of way or be up a little bit tighter when it comes to their ball pressure and stuff like that. And guess what? That’s going to lead to falls. And then if teams are going to switch the way that some of these other teams recently have against the Cavs, then they’re going to have some mismatches and Evan Mobley is going to be matched up against guards.
And Jared Allen’s going to be matched up against guards and Deandre Hunter is going to have a physical mismatch as well. And what happens in that situation? You know, the smaller defender probably panics, probably gets a little bit too handsy and they get whistled for these things. You know, it’s not a surprise though that the foul magnet Hornets kept falling repeatedly. I mean, LaMelo had five fouls in the second half. He had one foul at halftime.
Chris (27:13.07)
And then the start of the third quarter, he followed, then he followed, then he followed, and then he sat on the bench and then they brought him back in and they followed again. So, you know, when you’re a defense like the Hornets and you don’t feel like you have the pieces to match up well enough with a high octane offense like the Cavs, it’s going to lead to you probably doing some things illegally on the defensive end of the floor.
to try and slow them down. So it all starts with the attack mentality of the Cavs. It all starts with the pace of the Cavs and how quick they get into their offensive sets and the continuous bind that they put these defenses in. If you continue to keep these defenses off balance, you you’re going to continue to get rewarded for your aggressiveness, you would think. Anyway, 51 is a lot. 31.
You know, 31 points in the fourth quarter and 17, 17 free throw line. It’s like the Hornets didn’t even make the Cavs have to make shots in the half court to beat them to manufacture this comeback because they just kept following them over and over and over. So it was a lot. I think it’s probably a bit of an anomaly. I don’t think it’s going to happen again. Sunday against Milwaukee.
because Milwaukee is a better team, Milwaukee is a better defensive team, and they don’t have to resort to graviness and physicality and some of this other stuff. But it all starts with how attack minded the Cavs are and the constant pressure that they put on these defenses.
Ethan Sands (28:59.323)
And Chris, I think the last part about this is the Cavs have become somewhat reliant or known for in these close games, relying on their free throw shooters because they foul on the defensive end to put their, opposing team at the line while up three, right? So this is a concept in this game that goes back years and years and years, but Kenny Atkinson has been utilizing it at a lot.
Chris (29:20.078)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (29:29.127)
Right? And it makes the opposing team want to do the same thing, kind of, because you don’t want the other team to go up three or go up two. And if you’re up one at that point after making your free throws, then you want to make sure they can stay as close as possible. But when teams do this and then guys like Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell, obviously tonight it was Donovan who missed two.
Chris (29:46.968)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (29:56.913)
And that’s basically what made the game a one point score to end the game. But is that a, is that an area of concern for this cast team? Nope. Okay.
Chris (30:02.904)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (30:07.766)
No, Nope. It’s not. mean, if it was a season long problem, then sure. I would be, probably harping on it a little bit more on a night like tonight, but the Cavs are basically top 10 in the NBA in free throw percentage. And I think in end of game situations, there’s enough confidence. Donovan’s not Steph Curry, right? But.
Donovan’s a really, really good clutch free throw shooter. And Darius Garland is one of the best free throw shooters in the NBA. And they also have Ty Jerome, who was one of the best free throw shooters in the NBA. I think there are enough guys, DeAndre is a good free throw shooter too, by the way. There are just enough guys on this team where in an end of game situation, where you’ve got to put a team away at the free throw line, the Cavs have enough guys that they can go to.
That they should trust. And there’s no reason to lose confidence in Donovan in these kinds of situations because of tonight against Charlotte. Just like there wasn’t any reason to lose confidence in Darius. You know, when he was going through his late game free throw struggles where basically he lost his chance at 50-40-90 because of one game where he just kept missing free throws over and over and over again. Again, if it was a consistent theme.
I’d be right there with you, but it’s not. Like these kinds of things feel like anomalies to me. And I do think like it’s important to point out that they’re going to be in a lot of tight games, especially when you talk about the playoffs. You know, I know the Cavs are a dominant team and they have been throughout the course of this season, double digit wins, 20 point wins. But in the playoffs, they’re going to be close games.
Me personally, and I think the Cavs as well, they have confidence in Darius, they have confidence in Donovan, they have confidence in Ty Jerome, that they can insert him into a lineup knowing that a team is going to fall. And Kenny believes strongly, Ethan. He believes strongly in the fall up three thing. Don’t be surprised too, if he falls up six in some situations too, because that keeps it a two possession game.
Chris (32:34.86)
With today, modern NBA, three point shooting. If you give a team a chance when you’re up six to make a three and make it a one possession game that can change the tenor of it in late game situations. So don’t be surprised if like Joe Masula, like JJ Radek, like some other great coaches of the recent past.
Don’t be surprised that if the Cavs get into a situation that they start following up six two, I could see Kenny Atkinson as that kind of coach.
Ethan Sands (33:11.279)
Just to put some stats behind my thinking, I wasn’t saying that it’s a concern when it comes to the clutch free throws. I’m saying that it’s something that I’ve noticed as of late and that can go back to the Houston Rockets game where the Cavs lost one of their only 10 losses this season at the free throw line. But in clutch stats on NBA.com, the Cavs have the most free throw attempts per game, but they have the 16th free throw
Chris (33:16.81)
you
Ethan Sands (33:41.771)
16th best free throw percentage in the league. I definitely think that’s something to monitor. But I wanted to get into what you said right there about Kenny Atkins and fouling up six, fouling up three. What do you think about that set? I’m not saying this. I’m saying this from the internet. There are some people that consider it cowardly. Do you think it’s a good strategy? Do you think
that the game should not be won or lost at the free throw line. What’s your take on the scheme of fouling up three, fouling up six even?
Chris (34:18.828)
We don’t have to worry about machismo here. There are no pictures in a box score. It’s about winning the game and what mathematically gives you the best chance to win the game. You know, the Cavs following up three, part of that is they believe in their free throw shooters in Donovan and Darius. They believe that they can win that free throw shooting contest down the stretch, but it’s also smart.
You want to let Charlotte go down the floor and drop a play for miles bridges on a career high to get an open three, another open three like the previous one that he hit. No, you don’t want to give a team a chance to tie the game with a three like that. You follow them, you send them to the free throw line. You put pressure on them. You make them then have to make a decision. Do we try and make both? Do we make one and miss the second one on purpose? And then we get into a scramble mode.
Kenny Atkinson’s job, any coach’s job, is to win the game. It doesn’t matter how. It doesn’t matter if it’s cowardly or not. It doesn’t matter if it has been done in the past or not. It’s whatever you think is going to give you the best mathematical chance to win the game. And keeping a team from a possession where they would tie the game is just brilliant. It’s smart strategy. It’s good basketball. It’s what every team...
should do in that situation, provided that you have a capable enough free throw shooter that if that guy makes two, you feel like your guy is going to be able to inbound the ball, take the ball, go and make his free throws as well. And then you get into the same thing. Run out the clock as best you can without giving the team an opportunity to tie the game. Now look, Charlotte had an opportunity for a go ahead heave at the buzzer, because Donovan missed.
two free throws at the end of the game. Very uncharacteristic. But even that shot, that was a low percentage shot because the other thing that it helps you with when you continue to follow up by three is that now all of a sudden, how is that other team going to use their timeouts? You know what I mean? Like sometimes they’re gonna call timeout, they’re gonna draw up a play.
Chris (36:40.75)
And then that becomes a worthless timeout because you follow up three and you don’t let them execute that play the way that they wanted. And then on the next possession, they’re out of timeouts. And instead of calling a timeout and advancing it to half court, now they got to throw up a half court heave as the clock is expiring. Such was the case for the Charlotte Hornets tonight. So I just think there are so many different advantages that you gain by following up three.
And it’s not surprising to me that Kenny being as analytically driven as he is, even though he doesn’t like that kind of characterization, it doesn’t surprise me that he has taken this tactic and he’s going to continue to use it over and over and over again. So for all those people that are complaining, you know, it doesn’t matter how it’s done. As I said.
In golf, there are no pictures on a scorecard. It’s about making a number. And there are no pictures on a box score. And you don’t get bonus points for machismo and less cowardice, if you want to put it that way.
Ethan Sands (37:51.313)
I think it’s, I’m gonna end with this. I think it’s very funny that Kenny Atkinson, as we know, is so analytically driven and he’s like one of the smartest basketball minds when it comes to like drawing up plays, ATOs, he has like this pamphlet filled with all of these plays, but like after games when, and we know that he takes a while to come and talk to us after games.
Chris (38:15.639)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (38:15.955)
Cause he’s talking with his players, talking with his staff, talking with his data analytics and all these things. And yet every time we bring up a stat in the post game, asks, he acts brand new. Like he hasn’t heard the stat before. And maybe there are some that are like, oh, okay. That’s a little bit more in depth. Uh, but when he’s like, Oh my God, we’re on a 13 game win streak. Come on, Kenny, come on, man. We know that you know, these things, you don’t have to act brand new.
It’s like a little gimmick for us It’s it’s the beauty of actually getting to talk to Kenny and figure out like his style of coaching and his gamemanship like we didn’t know this we didn’t know that but it’s different from Jamie Bickerstad last year with the injury report and then everybody knew exactly what he was gonna say every time he walked in we’ll see we’ll see but
Chris (39:10.574)
I think Kenny just likes hearing all these cool stats that these writers come up with and they actually do the research on their own and want to ask him about it. I think he’s impressed. I think he’s impressed with the reporters that they come up with these stats and they share them with Kenny. And obviously if you’re a team that has 53 wins, you’re the best team in the NBA.
You like all the flattering stats that people can say and bring to your attention.
Ethan Sands (39:42.023)
grade. But the most important stat, I think, for the Cavs going into their next stretch of games is the fact that they can lock up the number one seed in the Eastern Conference with the magic number 12. There’s games coming up. There’s 19 games left. It’s crazy to think about we’re under 20 at this point, Chris. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk.
podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. The next trip is Milwaukee and I bet Chris needs food recommendations for when he goes out to Milwaukee. That’s not one of his favorite places to go. So if you have something that you would want him to try, send it. Spider-Man.
Chris (40:34.382)
Spider-Man meme. Cleveland Milwaukee. I actually was recruited by a radio station in Milwaukee about, hmm, about 15 years ago, actually. They brought me up there. They took me on a tour of the radio station. They had all this stuff set up.
where my name was going to be on billboards and stuff like that because I was going to have my own show and they had this big speech and this presentation for me and stuff like that. So I got a free trip up to Milwaukee. But that was right around the time that I started dating Holly, now my wife. And I just wasn’t in the place from a personal standpoint where I felt like it was time to go up there.
But I did consider for all the people that were mad about my Milwaukee comments. I did consider one time briefly, a potential career path that, that took me to Milwaukee where I was going to be the afternoon drive host of one of the radio stations, one of the sports talk radio stations up there in Milwaukee. I just, I just, the timing wasn’t right. I took the free trip up there. I listened to what they had to say.
but the timing wasn’t right. So it’s not a knock against Milwaukee. It just, while I was up there and I was taking a tour of the city and I was looking at potential houses and apartments and stuff like that, I was like, wait a minute. This is baby Cleveland here. This reminds me a lot of Cleveland. So that’s why I said, Spider-Man meme, Cleveland, Milwaukee, just pointing at each other.
Ethan Sands (42:22.759)
I don’t know if you had to vindicate yourself on that one, but fair.
Chris (42:26.862)
It’s okay. I just like sharing my life with you people.
Ethan Sands (42:30.483)
You people. And if you want to learn...
Chris (42:33.674)
my people my whining olders
Ethan Sands (42:38.515)
And if you want to learn more about Chris’s checkered past, can find out with us on Subtext as he sends you all of his stories from his past, all of his stories from his present, all of his stories from his trip to Milwaukee and beyond on Subtext. And to do that, you sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit Cleveland.com slash Cavs and click on the blue bar.
Chris (42:44.969)
Good.
Ethan Sands (43:07.283)
at the top of the page to subscribe for $3.99 a month. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.