CLEVELAND, Ohio — This week’s episode of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast is live, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell.
We start with the Browns, their contract extension with Myles Garrett, and their trade to bring in quarterback Kenny Pickett.
We also talk Cavs, and Terry remembers some Cleveland teams that had “closers,” and some teams that didn’t.
We also look at the Guardians, as they continue to work out their question marks in the starting rotation, at second base and in right field.
Do you have any questions or comments for the podcast? Send your thoughts and questions in via email to us at sports@cleveland.com and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line, and we’ll try to feature it on an upcoming episode.
Highlights:
Highlights:
Myles Garrett’s contract situation reflects the complexities of NFL negotiations.
The Joe Flacco Option is still available for the Browns.
Why Kenny Pickett is a better fit for the Browns than Dorian Thompson Robinson.
Chris Fedor’s story on Darius Garland is emerging as a clutch player in critical moments.
Darius Garland’s season is remarkable, especially given his past injuries.
Donovan Mitchell’s leadership is setting the Cavs up for playoff success.
What makes a great ‘closer’ in the NBA.
A listener asks: How would a 2025 title compare to the 2016 Cavs championship?
The Guardians still facing questions at second base and in right field.
And spring training memories of Hi Corbett Field in Arizona.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here.
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below. The transcript below was generated by a computer, and as such it contains many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell (01:04.109)
Hey, it’s time for the Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m David Campbell, your host. Terry Pluto is here as well as he is every week. Terry, what’s the word?
Terry Pluto (01:14.174)
Well, Myles Garrett is a brown. David Campbell didn’t get traded. So there you go. Yeah, still there.
David Campbell (01:19.885)
That’s right. still here. Yeah. It’s so weird. think last week when we podcasted, we thought podcast or podcasted. guess we podcast, but we thought that Miles Garrett wouldn’t be signed and that the Browns would have signed a veteran quarterback by now. And the opposite has happened. Yeah. So it’s interesting.
Terry Pluto (01:28.352)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:36.182)
Yeah. So, so far we’re 0 for 2. Right. I mean, I mean, from the beginning, I thought he would eventually get to signing with the Browns. I didn’t think that actually, in some ways he kind of came to a senses, David, that realizing that, I wrote a comma about this that’ll be up, on Wednesday morning that I took this as far as I could go without really becoming a bad guy.
in terms of especially teammates to worry about how their teammates feel about him because if he has two years left in a contract and now he’s holding out and missing many camps and all that other stuff and even games that’s when you really lose a lot of kind of credibility in the dressing room whereas okay offseason he wants to say this last stuff here to see if he can get himself traded or more money or whatever
I think guys sort of shrug and say, that’s just business and I stay out of other people’s money. But when you’re under contract and you’re a really good player and you don’t play in a sense, you’re kind of messing with my money players thing. mean, that was in fact, the old Yankees. was one of the things I remember Tony Kubek told me when we did a book on the 61 Yankees together. That was some of the older guys would tell the young Yankee players.
you know, especially if they’ve made mental mistakes, right? You’re messing with my money. And that was it because by the way, they would want that big World Series check. And that was back when there were no playoffs and you didn’t make much money. You can make like a 30, what amount to like a 30 % raise by going to the World Series. So David, don’t mess with my money.
David Campbell (03:19.801)
That’s right. There’s a t-shirt waiting to be made right there. So all right, well, let’s dig into this Miles Garrett thing a little bit. Also, when we get into the calves, there’s this interesting stuff that Chris Fudor wrote about today about Darius Garland and Clutch players that I wanted to ask you about. We got a good guardians email too from a listener taking us, it’ll take us down memory lane a little bit. But so you’re right, Terry, you kind of saw this.
Terry Pluto (03:22.284)
There probably is, yes.
Terry Pluto (03:34.732)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Campbell (03:46.5)
from day one with the Miles Garrett thing is like, this is what NFL players have to do when they want to raise when they’re under contract. And he used pretty much all the leverage that he had. we saw over the weekend and Mary Kay Cabot was our colleague was reporting like crazy on this, but there’s kind of two schools of thought that Miles wanted it to go this way the whole time. And then we also saw from Nicole Lynn, who’s Miles Garrett’s agent over the weekend that, we had a change of heart.
Terry Pluto (03:52.088)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (04:10.894)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (04:15.457)
over the weekend and he wanted to get this done before free agency so that he could talk guys into coming here. So how do you feel about which one of those is kind of closer to the way it went down? Or guess could it be both? I don’t know.
Terry Pluto (04:28.502)
He could have flipped back to where he was towards the end of the regular season. Remember he talked about that they were talking about an extension and some quote unquote, something could be coming soon. And I don’t think he meant a trade request. You don’t throw that out there, but then I think he sat down after their three and 14 and maybe the last meeting with Barry didn’t go as he had liked or who knows. and just thought, maybe let’s, if anything else, let’s try this. Maybe this will work because keep in mind.
It wasn’t, I just want to play for a winner. It was, I want to play for a winner and be the highest paid non-quarterback. It was both. It never was just one of those things. In fact, had he been traded, I think he would have pitched a big fit there if they weren’t willing to the new team to rework the contract. So this is something that fans had to keep in mind, even though you always try to sell it. I’m interested in winning or.
however you want to do it’s not about money but it’s frankly by the elixir Jose Ramirez it’s almost always about money
David Campbell (05:36.046)
Yeah, the Browns, in terms of leverage, they had his two-year contract, but they really needed to sign him, I think, on a couple of fronts. One was that they don’t have anybody who gets SACS, and to get this done. The other thing was, and Jimmy Watkins, our colleague, wrote a column about this today, that if you’re a capologist and kind of an analytics nut, this wasn’t a great move for the Browns, because they probably could have done a really thorough rebuild by trading miles and getting a bunch of assets.
Terry Pluto (05:41.998)
Yeah
Terry Pluto (05:48.675)
Yeah.
David Campbell (06:05.911)
The fans needed this, right? Browns fans needed to have this happen to make them feel good about miles and feel good about the Browns again. And you can’t really put a price on that. think it was what Jimmy was getting at. Like that, that is worth something in terms of having fans be able to cheer for miles and cheers cheer for the team in an earnest way. And this went a long way toward doing that. So I thought that was an interesting, interesting.
Terry Pluto (06:30.586)
And also if you’re a Browns player David and you see okay, let me see so they’ll guarantee to Sean Watson We don’t know know nothing about he comes in here guarantee him 230 million, but they won’t pay it pay miles Garrett See we have to keep in mind Yeah, it is it absolutely what that might that that thing carried that and so that’s where I talked about You one of the mindsets there is I think miles didn’t want to be the guy
David Campbell (06:44.985)
That pretty much sums up Myles'
Terry Pluto (06:59.054)
Okay, they won’t trade me. So I’m messing up my team. I don’t think he wanted to do that I really don’t because he would have Still be out there making all kinds of noise or doing whatever secondly The Browns set themselves up for this. This is what they did what that the the Watson thing has been just such a plague on this franchise in so many ways ever since 2022 when they made the deal
And you know, remember Mark, Mark Shapiro told me, I can’t remember who the player was. I could guess from that, but they made a trade for a player. the tribe did back then and they brought him in and they immediately gave him a three year extension. They hadn’t had him before. And while he realized he liked the guy, whatever he did, the guy’s training techniques were bad. He tended to get heavy. You know, it just, he wasn’t really.
as they would say their kind of guy and he vowed then that he would never, uh, do a long-term extension on a guy that they just traded for it because you at least want to see him half a season, you know, be around them. And that was another big grant. And when you sign free agents, there’s part of it. But if you have a choice of extent, cause they didn’t have to, the guy had a year or two left in his contract. just did, they just did it. Well,
You know, but also when you really do something like that with Watson, with all the baggage and then, you know, I get these people, Miles only plays for himself and he just wants to be defensive player of the year. He’s missed five games in the last four years. He gets a lot of sacks. He’s pretty good against the run. He plays all the time.
David Campbell (08:52.387)
He leads the locker room.
Terry Pluto (08:54.156)
Yeah. I mean, in that, in that respect, you know, and miles, he does have some, we remember during COVID and whether you could tell, yeah, sometimes he has that trace of asthma that he deals with. like you could, you could be mad about how we said this or that, but it’s like, this guy’s out there. He’s playing last year. He was all banged up. That would have been an easy year to just bag it for a couple of games. He played in a mall. I’m just, you know,
People want to hear that now because they’re mad at them about this, but it’ll be interesting to see how long that kind of carries.
David Campbell (09:28.025)
I don’t think very long. you know, I think you were on this early, Terry, that this is how it goes. Like Lamar Jackson, same thing, right? Like this is players make a big racket, they want to be paid, it gets worked out. And I think fans kind of move on pretty quickly. Just for the details real quick, it runs as a four-year extension for Miles Garrett runs through 2030 worth $160 million. And he’ll be the highest paid non-quarterback in NFL history at 40 million a year average, no trade clause.
Terry Pluto (09:29.549)
No.
Terry Pluto (09:34.85)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (09:59.002)
So if you’re a Browns fan, yeah. Yeah, go ahead.
Terry Pluto (10:00.782)
Well, there’s a couple other things in there. First of all, it actually is a six-year contract worth a little over 200. The 123 of that is guaranteed. There’s two big ones. Number one is 100 million paid out in the first three years, which makes me wonder how much of those last couple of years, we haven’t seen a total breakdown yet, is guaranteed for what amount or whatever. So it might be front-loaded in some ways.
Certainly front loaded with cash. And they do that with signing bonuses. The other thing is the no trade. Okay, David, how does that work out in two ways for miles?
David Campbell (10:41.283)
Well, he doesn’t have to go to a team he doesn’t want to go to. And I’m trying to think of a second way. What’s the second way?
Terry Pluto (10:43.831)
Yep.
Terry Pluto (10:47.586)
The Deshaun Watson way. You get traded, you have a no trade, say, ain’t going unless you give me a new contract.
David Campbell (10:56.094)
leverage for the next deal. Yeah. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (10:58.734)
How about that? Yeah, that thing, that was his golden pass. That was another reason. Yep. Warning sign number 47 on Deshaun Watson when he was sitting out after having signed one year, I know I’m pounding on this, but I just want to put miles this thing in some perspective here, you know, of him mouthing off or whatever versus, what really some guys do, you know, so Watson signs a four year contract. He plays one year on it.
Then he wants to be traded. He’s sitting out. Then as he’s sitting out some of the, the civil suits, the stuff. So Houston says, stay home. Then they run the auction. Then teams, it was supposed to be a meet and greet, you know, that you can see, Hey, the Sean’s a great guy, whatever you’ll want them. So they come in while the Browns want him. And then they say, okay, you can get them, but we got to know trader. We’re going to invoke it unless you give us a new deal.
one year into a four-year contract. which he did, of which he did, you he played. He, he actually, the one year he was paid, he didn’t play.
David Campbell (12:02.467)
Yeah, people talk.
David Campbell (12:13.143)
No, I’m glad you brought this up because people talk about LeBron James having invented the salary structure that he did, which was basically kind of holding teams a little bit ransom, doing it in short term to make sure that this Deshaun Watson deal, you’re right, Terry. It set the template for what guys with power will probably do from here on out. I think that’s a really good point.
Terry Pluto (12:14.798)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (12:24.14)
Yeah!
Terry Pluto (12:34.998)
And to LeBron James, can say anything you want. This guy never, never held out, never demanded a trade. He just played out his contracts and went where he wanted to go.
David Campbell (12:46.435)
Well, I just mean in terms of a lot of guys around the league and the NBA were like, wow, I never thought of doing it that way before. And LeBron and his people did. And I think if you look at the Deshaun Watson thing, a lot of people around the league were probably thinking I never thought of, not the holdout necessarily, but using the no trade clause as leverage. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (12:52.046)
Exactly.
Terry Pluto (13:02.516)
Exactly. But using the no trade, right. That’s why teams are very reluctant to give them out in the NFL, because it one, it kind of prevents you where to go. But secondly, gives a player power to say, I don’t want to go unless you want to give me more money.
David Campbell (13:22.201)
All right. Well, so my next question, Terry, for you is if you’re a Browns fan right now, the season ends, they’re three and 14. Miles Garrett wants to hear the plan for winning so that he can stick around. He doesn’t seem all that impressed with it, but now he seems like he is. Joel Batonio is coming back. Your standout, you know, ring of honor, probable hall of fame guard is coming back. Should Browns fans feel encouraged that these two pillars of the team, one on each side of the ball, feel like there’s some
Terry Pluto (13:23.063)
Okay.
Terry Pluto (13:38.36)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (13:52.324)
hope here for turning this thing around quickly or was it all about money and just kind of falling in line? What’s your sense?
Terry Pluto (13:59.534)
mean, right now it’s mostly, I think, falling in line, but, you know, had, but Tony retired and miles continued this holdout. Uh, then you would thought, Oh Lord, you know, it’s going to be all summer. What’s miles doing? Are they going to trade them? Not trade them all that junk. You know, this is, this takes that completely out of the news and then miles will probably come in and you know, he’ll pull himself together in terms of what he wants to say publicly. And I’m just go back to he’s.
He missed five games in the last four years. He’s 29. You know, one fan wrote me, I used it for a column example for a council. You know, he should have just then played out his last two years in his contract and become a free agent and so on. That tough thing there. I was trying to figure out how much of that, the last two years are not guaranteed. I’m not sure how much, they weren’t guaranteed for, but remember these NFL contracts, they’re, they’re different. That’s not like.
baseball contracts. And therefore a lot of times when these guys get closer to the end of their contracts, they want a new deal because they want at least that money guaranteed. And you know, miles at 29 is going to be, he knows his leverage is lot better than he is at 31. And so there, that makes a, some sense for that, but I think more of what the Browns fans going to do. I’m not sure how excited people got over Kenny Pickett. I mean,
Part of me says, would you rather have DTR or Kenny Pickett, David Campbell?
David Campbell (15:31.129)
If I’m the Browns, I would rather have Kenny pick it. Yeah, but
Terry Pluto (15:33.666)
Yeah, me too. Yeah, you could you could put them in the game more. But but hopefully do you? yeah.
David Campbell (15:38.318)
Yeah. So anyway, we’ll wrap up the miles thing. Like it needed to happen either before free agency or before the draft. Those were kind of the two deadlines that were hanging out there and the Browns and Miles Garrett got it done before the draft, which is good news for the Browns because now they know they kind of know what they need. They can build around Miles Garrett. So that was a good thing. So, all right, let’s do, let’s get into Kenny Pickett thing, Terry, that the Browns have traded with the Eagles for Kenny Pickett.
Terry Pluto (15:47.128)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (15:56.652)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (16:05.379)
They are sending Philadelphia Dorian Thompson Robinson and a fifth round pick this year that they received in the Zedaria Smith trade from Detroit. This move made some sense, In terms of Dorian Thompson Robinson always felt to me like they were trying to fit a round peg in a square hole with this offense, but it’s a small deal, but it made sense, right? When you take it on its face.
Terry Pluto (16:27.842)
Well, I mean, basically, if you ask yourself which one’s better, I mean, can we pick is better? DTR, it was one of those guys, unfortunately for him, the more he played, the more he was exposed, you know, the lack of arm strength and, and the inability really to stay healthy. I mean, he didn’t play that much, but he racked up a number of injuries. So, pick it, know, pick is kind of erratic. I’m not a big fan, but if you’re
thinking about, they always call it the room, know, the quarterback. Do you have a quarterback room in your house?
David Campbell (17:01.591)
No, no, just a running back room.
Terry Pluto (17:03.518)
Yeah. Well, I have the typing room, which is, know, I guess you would call it offense office, but in terms of, the quarterback room, which is empty. now you have Kenny Pickett. I hope they go get another veteran. You know, maybe I’m holding out hope for no reason on Joe Flacco. just cause I don’t know what Atlanta is doing with, with cousins and,
I know, you know, they draft a guy in the first or second round and, know, just basically, this is a whole, let’s just start over with the quarterbacks.
David Campbell (17:40.846)
Yeah. So Kenny Pickett 15 and 10 and 15 touchdown passes, 14 interceptions of 79.3 rating has completed 62.4 % of his passes for 4,765 yards. And I was just interested, Terry, I looked up the yards per attempt for Kenny Pickett compared to Dorian Thompson Robinson. Dorian Thompson Robinson’s yards per attempt is just a crazy low 3.8 yards per. Yeah. Which you do not see very often.
Terry Pluto (17:57.58)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (18:04.206)
Like three, yeah say three point something. Yeah, I don’t know. No.
David Campbell (18:10.147)
Kenny Pickett’s yards per attempt was 6.3. And yeah, and I think if you’re the Browns coaching staff and Andrew Berry, like you want somebody who can, again, I think it’s going back to the running game with play action and getting the ball downfield a little bit. And Kenny Pickett just can do that better than Thompson Robinson. The stats just bear that out and this is the way they play.
Terry Pluto (18:13.476)
really? That’s not bad.
Terry Pluto (18:25.879)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (18:31.404)
Yeah. And that’s why, you know, for example, I don’t think they’re going to do, but if they wanted to bring in Flacco, that would be fine. You Flacco could do that stuff downfield. got to it and then you got your kid, whoever it is. And really then if you suppose you decide to use that number one pick on somebody else other than a quarterback, and then take a quarterback a little later, you know, the old push, kick the can down the road for.
David Campbell (18:43.491)
Yeah, I think that’s good.
Terry Pluto (18:59.01)
picking a quarterback in the draft up high. And then you say, well, I got, say, I got Flacco or I got cousins and I got Pickett. They can get me through the year and then we’ll go try it again next year to, take a quarterback if they don’t like these guys.
David Campbell (19:13.753)
All right, so the Joe Flacco solution is still out there. Terry, you want me to run through who signed so far? I think I have a quick list here. So Sam Darnold’s going to the Seahawks. Three years, $100.5 million for Sam Darnold.
Terry Pluto (19:18.675)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you see the money on that?
Terry Pluto (19:27.31)
Yeah, I think like 60 million guaranteed or something too.
David Campbell (19:30.177)
Yeah, he made himself a lot of money last season. Justin Fields going to the Jets where he’s going to reunite with Buckeye Garrett Wilson. Justin Fields got two years 40 million. Daniel Jones going to the Colts one year 14 million. Jimmy Garoppolo to the Rams one year 4 million. Zach Wilson to the Dolphins one year 6 million. Josh Dobbs former Brown to the Patriots two years 8 million.
Terry Pluto (19:40.226)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (19:54.163)
Zack well, you know, but really eight eight for a judge either one and Dobbs II Dobbs II got more than exactly then Wow, okay
David Campbell (19:56.846)
Which one, Zach Wilson?
Two years, eight million, yeah, for Josh Dobbs. So Jared Stidham going to the Broncos, two years, 12 million, which I thought was really a high number too. And then Nick Mullins to the Jaguars, two years, 6.5 million. Yeah. I mean, that’s only, 3.25 per year, but still. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (20:12.558)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (20:16.536)
For Nick Mullins?
Terry Pluto (20:20.97)
I know, but jeez, I, you know. Okay, what a country.
David Campbell (20:25.485)
Yeah, so Joe Flacco’s still out there. Aaron Rodgers still out there. Russell Wilson’s still out there. Gardner Minchew, Jameis Winston, Jacoby Brissette, Roberta’s favorite. So there’s some options here. If the Browns went in with Flacco, Kenny Pickett, and Draft Pick, you’d be good with that, right, Jerry? Okay.
Terry Pluto (20:27.64)
Flaggust.
Terry Pluto (20:35.042)
Yeah. Yes.
Terry Pluto (20:45.934)
Yeah, yeah, I’m okay with that. Same thing they want to do cousins, although cousins' health worries me. I didn’t like the excuse I was told by one higher up that, well, what really went wrong with cousins was this Achilles, he just had some shoulder problems or whatever. Well, he’s a quarterback, I don’t want to hear about arm problems. And then you got...
I don’t know, Wilson, Russell Wilson do anything for you?
David Campbell (21:19.565)
Mary Kay has been writing that she thinks it would be a good fit, that he’s kind of somebody who wouldn’t want to sit behind a rookie, but he could buy you a season. I think it could work. I just don’t know if it’s going to happen. I don’t know that Russell Wilson wants to come in and have the number two pick in the draft potentially playing behind him.
Terry Pluto (21:26.19)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (21:34.317)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (21:38.616)
See, that’s why I was thinking, yeah, and you don’t know what his agenda will be. Whereas we do know with Flacco and Pickett, you know, what the agenda will be. mean, Pickett’s been humbled, sat in Philadelphia, and Flacco, Flacco’s just a good guy. He’ll do what he has, he’s 40 years old. I don’t really.
See, you I used to like Arne Mintu, but geez, he got a chance to play with Las Vegas and he was terrible last year.
David Campbell (22:12.493)
Yeah, and I do think Flacco, given a full training camp and stuff, he might perform better than he did at the end of his time here. And I think he was a good fit with the coaches and the offensive line.
Terry Pluto (22:20.16)
Yeah, I mean, I know they were they were upset with Flacco here because he the turnovers and the fumbles and so on because it’s not just the interceptions.
David Campbell (22:32.077)
All right.
Terry Pluto (22:32.378)
they went four and one with them, they didn’t have Nick Chubb. I mean, just as they say, just saying, that’s what they did.
David Campbell (22:40.345)
All right, well, just to wrap up the free agency stuff so far, Terry, we’re taping this late on Tuesday afternoon, but the Browns, I mean, this is traditionally true of a lot of teams, but especially the Browns, they don’t really go crazy with big name free agents necessarily, but they have signed a kind of a swing tackle, Cornelius Lucas from Washington, two year deal worth about $10 million. And today on Tuesday, Mary Kay had a story up a little while ago. They have agreed the terms with.
Terry Pluto (22:44.91)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (22:58.478)
Hmm.
David Campbell (23:08.993)
Linebacker Joe Tryon Shoinka and he’s going to play defensive end here. I think the Buccaneers play a 3-4 so that’s why he’s listed as a linebacker. But he’s 25 and it’s one of these guys who needs kind of a change of scenery. His production has dropped off each year and I think he only had two sacks last season so they’re letting him go. He was high draft pick for them coming out of coming out in 2021 out of Washington and
They’re just hoping to change his senior. We might work for him, but that’s a one year deal kind of approve it situation 4.75 million.
Terry Pluto (23:44.878)
Yeah, I don’t know enough about any of those guys to say much, so.
David Campbell (23:47.226)
Yeah, they’re basically, you know, uh, role, role players for lack of a better word. And if they hit great and if not, you’ve got some good depth. So I think that’s kind of what the Browns have been trying to do here and shore up that tackle position so that, I mean, look, given what happened to tackle last year with all the injuries, uh, having a, having a, having a veteran like that to drop in and play some games. think that’s a, that’s a good investment. And so they have done that early. So I think that’s it on the Browns, right?
Terry Pluto (23:55.309)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (24:14.978)
Yeah, that’s it for me.
David Campbell (24:16.641)
All right, you want to take a break here?
Terry Pluto (24:19.97)
That’ll be good.
David Campbell (24:20.845)
Alright, let’s do it and when we get back we are going to get into the Red Hot Cavaliers and the amazing Darius Garland. We are going to look at some numbers that kind of describe what he’s been doing lately. We’ll get into that and some of your emails when we return. Terry’s talking.
David Campbell (25:50.394)
All right, we are back on Terry’s talking. Real quick, I want to give a quick plug for Terry’s newsletter. It comes out every Wednesday at noon. Great stuff in there every week. Behind the scenes stuff that Terry has found out that maybe didn’t make it into his columns. Lots of good contract stuff, stories, your emails. We have a special email set up for newsletter subscribers. So go check it out if you want to sign up. Cleveland.com slash Pluto. If you go to the blue bar on the top of the page.
You can sign up there and you get a free two week trial. So you can try it out and you will like it. Guaranteed. So all right, Terry, the red hot Cavaliers 54 and 10. you know, we’ve been, we talked a little bit about, did you think that such and such would be happening now? And we talked about this a while ago. I don’t know that we ever saw this amount of elevated play coming from Darius Garland this season.
Terry Pluto (26:36.984)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (26:44.47)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (26:46.081)
What are you seeing from him and what has surprised you this year about him?
Terry Pluto (26:49.142)
What do you have on numbers? Let’s start with that from Chris’s story.
David Campbell (26:52.153)
Yeah, so Chris Fedor, our colleague who covers the team, put up a story today about whether Darius Garland is the most clutch player in the NBA and they have this new award, the Clutch Player of the Year. Darius Garland is 11th in the league in total clutch points, which that basically means that points that you get in the last five minutes of the fourth quarter or overtime when the score is within five points.
So that’s what’s defined as clutch time. Last five minutes of the fourth or overtime when the score is within five points. He’s shooting 58.1 % from the field during clutch time. Eight of 13 from three point range, 61.5%. He’s shooting 27 of 31 from the free throw line in crunch time or clutch time. keep calling it crunch time. It’s the same thing. 87.1 % in clutch time.
Terry Pluto (27:28.312)
days.
Terry Pluto (27:43.586)
Yeah.
David Campbell (27:48.358)
And everybody remembers the big shot he hit against the Pistons last month, the game winner. He also has 17 assists against three turnovers while the Cavs are in clutch time. And the Cavs are an NBA best, plus 88 when he’s on the floor in those situations. These again are all from Chris’s story today. They’re 47 and 0 when they’re up entering the fourth quarter.
Pretty impressive stuff. mean, given the struggles that he had last year with all the injuries and the jaw and he couldn’t eat like real food. He was drinking out of a straw to have him closing games like this is something that the Cavs have to be just thrilled to see happening, right?
Terry Pluto (28:29.362)
I never expected anything close to it. I wondered about his kind of long-term future after last year. And I guess I did not put why no right now in the brevity mirror, I did not, realize the total impact of all those injuries that they had on him and also on his confidence. Cause when a player is, isn’t feeling close to a hundred percent, they kind of doubt how I’m moving and,
last year you could see what times when he would go to the rim and he would just almost veer off because he, was afraid to get hit because of course the miles been whacked and everything else. And to see how he’s Shanchi is stronger. he’s so under control his ability. Yeah. He has an ability to change speeds and change direction because you know,
Kenny Eccason keeps talking about how fast he is. is, but I think part of the reason for the speed is so dramatic is that he, and the other guy does is tie Jerome. They both can really change their, their speed in the middle of they’ll take two dribbles real quick. Then they slow down. they, then all of a they take a sharp cut to the right. They’re, they’re difficult to guard. And then finally, you know, when you’re making your outside shots, it sets up so much. Cause then teams have to come out on you. You can get around them.
And also the Cavs have great spacing. And what I really liked is how Donovan Mitchell, you know, not only committed to help Evan Moe, but he committed to help Darius Garland. Cause I mean, Mitchell, he could have a real strong personality if he wanted to and just bring the ball up himself. And we saw that with LeBron, you know, when LeBron wanted to run things, he just ran things. And everybody else went to the corner or went to the wing and stood there and wait till LeBron gave him the ball.
And that could have happened with Garland had Donovan wanted it to go in that direction. But instead he really wanted to basically bring Garland out of his funk from a year ago, realizing that an excellent Darius Garland just makes it better for the calves. And so I give a lot of credit to Donovan on this.
David Campbell (30:40.857)
So you mentioned LeBron Terry and I was trying to think of great closers in Cavs history. I mean, nobody was better than LeBron. I don’t have the numbers here, but we’ve all seen it. We saw it go down and all, especially in the playoffs. And Darius Garland is kind of turning into a closer here with the Cavs. Have you seen, what other Cavs players in history do you think kind of had that closing gene or whatever you want to call it? And I guess, what do you think makes a good closer? What do you have to have to do it when the game is not on?
Terry Pluto (30:46.722)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (30:51.97)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (31:08.706)
Well, you have to have the ability to create a shot when maybe against two different guys almost. Because if you’re the great player with the ball, they’ll often run two guys at you on that. One of the reasons the Cavs team that I so loved with Nance and Doherty that I cover for the Beacon Journal, Mark Price, Elo, et cetera, what they lacked was that guy. They lacked a closer.
Mark Price could do it at times, but he was barely six foot. And like when they played the Bulls in the fourth quarter, Michael Jordan would then take, they would switch off for Craig Hodges or Pax and whoever was covering Price and they put, and Jordan would take them. And Mark just did not have the physical ability to get around, especially a Michael Jordan who was fixated on shutting down Mark Price. And they just didn’t have anybody else.
A young Ron Harper maybe could have done it, but they traded him. Then later he blew out his knee. So that was one of the things that hurt them in the playoffs. And when I think back even to the miracle of Richfield year, those were nice teams, but they didn’t have those guys. The only other guy really, mean, Donovan could close the game. Donovan really can. And we saw that some last year in the playoffs and big games.
periodically, you could just tell once in while he shows he still has it in his bag. He just kind of keeps it there, which is fine because you don’t want him blowing out a lot of energy or any of these things during the regular season. But that is why you haven’t had championships here because you do need one of those guys. know, Jason Tatum, you saw what he did. And, and Jalen Brown too, both of them, but especially Tatum when he’s on his game, he’s almost unstoppable. And,
And it’s funny, even like as good as the joker is with Denver, it usually is not the center that is the closer. It’s either a wing guy or a guard because he has the ball 35 feet from the basket and you he can either set up other people with passes or it allows him to have more room to be able to beat double teams. One of the reasons last year I liked it when they put Donovan Mitchell at the point guard because I saw
Terry Pluto (33:30.172)
at times the bulls doing with Michael Jordan and Doug Collins told me this is when you give that guy the ball and he’s sort of in the middle of the floor. It’s really hard to double team him. He can split the double team or go around them where if he’s on the wing, you kind of have a sideline thing to help you kind of fence it, fence them in. So put them, you know, put them the given the ball way, you know, way far away from the basket towards the middle of the floor. Well.
David Campbell (33:46.837)
Extra defender. Yep, the sideline is defender, yep.
Terry Pluto (33:57.166)
Garland can do that and Mitchell can do that and that’s why it’s gonna be fun to see how those two now In year three together with Garland healthy how this plays out in the playoffs? Secondly Garland is never gonna be a really good defender, but he’s no longer terrible and that’s an important thing they still try to get him on people but I know one of the things Kenny Atkinson Has told Garland is don’t be afraid to foul, you know shove them a little bit put don’t
You if you get a couple of fouls, that’s okay. And also because they have so much depth with Ty Jerome now, especially coming in, in the back court to handle the ball. if he gets a couple of fouls early, okay. we’ll bring in, you know, Jerome’s almost six foot five. He’s a bigger guy than you think. And that has helped them a ton.
David Campbell (34:48.729)
Well, and again, Terry in the man have things changed over time department. mean, you can, a year ago, there were so many things that were kind of up in the air in terms of Donovan Mitchell’s contract and the coaching situation. And it’s gone and it’s like, who’s going to close a game. in the playoffs, you felt like one injury and that’s kind of what happened was the injuries. This year’s team is his, it’s kind of like Donovan Mitchell is auditioning guys for the role of closer. It’s like, all right.
Terry Pluto (34:53.421)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (34:58.872)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (35:09.111)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (35:16.674)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (35:18.317)
We’re playing Boston and tonight’s fourth quarter star is going to be Evan Mobley. And he’s just going to bring this thing home. And another night, might be Garland and another night they might, might, you know, by trying to get Jared Allen involved, but like they’ve got three legitimate guys. I think that can just pull them over the finish line. if you ever want to say injuries are going to happen, but like, you know, if Donovan tweaks an ankle at the playoffs, Donovan tweaks an ankle in the first quarter, maybe he’s not in closing form.
Terry Pluto (35:31.054)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (35:41.625)
But injuries are gonna happen, yeah.
David Campbell (35:47.438)
Well, great. We got two other guys, and they’ve done it during the regular season. This is not something new, and they can do it. So here you go. Here’s the ball, and let’s spread it. Yeah, I am going to be interested to see how this works in the playoffs, because it’s
Terry Pluto (35:59.47)
me a year ago at this time, um, it was all about, they went around in the playoffs? JB had not went around the playoffs and there was, he was feeling that pressure. It was about, Donovan Mitchell going to sign or not? And I remember the, myself and some others look at me and said, there’s a pretty good chance he would sign here because among other things, it was better economically. Uh, but
Nationally was all the, he’s out of here. And that created a tough situation, I think for, and then also the injuries. Remember, um, was 89 games at the core four missed. Was it 90? It’s either 89 or 98. I always get it regardless a ton. And the most games are missed by mobile and then Mitchell. They actually missed more, I believe more games, slightly more games than Garland, but they all were in the twenties except the Jared Allen.
I think he missed six. So that was a challenge on that front. you had injuries, had questions about Donovan’s future and he had questions about the coach’s future. And I think the fact they won 48 games and that they did get to the second round of the playoffs was pretty good given all that. that clearly the coaching change was something that was needed here. This is obviously.
JB was was needed in Detroit. We’ve got one and yet another reclamation job for him. I mean, this guy should be on those fixer upper NBA programs like they have the house fixer uppers on TV. Yeah. Bring JB into some, some totally dysfunctional messed up basketball team. Let’s see what he could do with the nets, you know, or whatever it is, take your pick and, see what it, what it is. Yeah.
David Campbell (37:32.889)
Right. makeover.
Terry Pluto (37:49.806)
Let’s give them a year and a half because that seems to be about all I need. Of course, he needed about a month and a half for the Pistons to get them going. And I just think that this year, know, so much and Kenny has talked about that, you know, just about everything’s gone right. It just has.
David Campbell (38:09.443)
All right, well, speaking of winning, have an email here from listener Max Torum, who writes us occasionally. It’s always great to hear from Max and he says, hi, Dave and Terry. I hope you two are doing well. I usually write in about the Browns and it’s usually in regard to our questionable future. But today I’m going to take some of Terry’s advice and focus on the Cavs. What a ride it’s been so far. This team proves time and time again that they simply have no quit and they’re hungry to make a deep playoff run. If you ask me, they’ve more than proven their capability to bring another championship.
back to Cleveland. My question is this, do you think this championship, should the Cavs win it all, would be as sweet as the one in 2016? My dad says he thinks it would feel just as satisfying since this team has an entirely new identity and was built from scratch after LeBron moved to LA. I’m going back and forth because on one hand I agree with them, but on the other hand there may be nothing like coming back from down 3-1 against a rival for the first ring in over 50 years. What do you guys think?
Thanks for putting on an amazing show each week and helping Cleveland sports fans feel connected to the city from all over the world. Thanks for the kind words, Max. Appreciate it. What do think, Terry? How would that feel?
Terry Pluto (39:17.402)
We’re not exactly like people in LA and even Chicago or Boston. Let’s rate the championships that our NBA team has because they’ve had so many, you know.
In terms of
I mean, look, 2016 is going to be special. And I was at that last game in Oracle Arena writing that. Well, you’re down three to one and come back and, you know, how about that score of that game? 93, 89. That would be like a third quarter score. Just show some, some, but I mean, I’m in a playoff game even, you know, where they were, they’re going up to 120 points. And to see that, cause you fourth quarter, generally the scoring goes down. Uh, but.
David Campbell (39:52.087)
or second quarter and some of the Cavs came this season. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (40:04.494)
You look at that and you say, 93, 89, that’s, know, they, they, they slow golden state down LeBron, the whole deal there. Um, that will be special and LeBron’s kind of redemptive tour. It’s hard to duplicate that. But in terms of teams that I like to watch, I like this one better. I like, yes, because it’s.
David Campbell (40:29.145)
really?
Terry Pluto (40:31.724)
more of a purest basketball team. The ball moves more, the people move more. It isn’t all, you know, LeBron centered, like some of those different LeBron teams. And part of that was because they didn’t have that many players to create a shot. Now Kyrie could, but Kevin Love, not particularly. And the rest of those guys are all role players. So you had a lot of, you know, LeBron with the ball.
You know, Kyle Corver go to one corner and love to another and you know, maybe Kyrie except when he doesn’t feel like doing whatever he’s supposed to do. And one of the great stats ever though Kyrie’s last stat last year with the Cavs, the 16-17 season, the year after the title, when he wanted to be the focal point of his own franchise and forced to trade, he averaged more shots per game than LeBron.
David Campbell (41:25.677)
Ha! Little known fact, huh?
Terry Pluto (41:28.278)
Yeah. Just to show how LeBron tried to have him, you know, fit in or whatever, feel, I don’t know who knows the Kyrie. I guess give up on that, but it’s, it’s really amazing. Cause that’s why LeBron was really upset after Kyrie left. And I mean, he was upset at the cast. He’s upset at Kyrie, you know, cause I remember he says something like, well, I tried to teach the kid how to win. was the exact quote. It really made.
David Campbell (41:39.935)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (41:56.6)
Kyrie Mack is because LeBron called him the kid, but he acted like a kid. But go back to this team. The boot, the player movement they have. Right now you have three players who can create their own shot in a playoff atmosphere and you know, the two guards and I think mobile is getting to that point. Now at times.
We may also see that from Hunter. Certainly Hunter is going to be very, very helpful. Hunter’s really made himself into a good outside shooter and they’ve got on him to go crash the boards more on offense. And that’s something that can help. And you can put him on anything from really a shooting guard to a center. And that is good defensively on this team. And maybe I just like the fact that,
You know, when you have LeBron, you have LeBron. It’s about LeBron. This team is about the calves. remember, I’m a purist. Yeah. Yeah.
David Campbell (42:59.8)
Right.
Yeah, I was just going to say that. mean, you’ve been around this country, Terry, anytime you run into somebody and they’re like, you’re from Cleveland or you live in Cleveland. you know, LeBron, I love LeBron. It’s all LeBron is like the Cleveland brand. And to get back to Max’s question, I think it would be different, but I don’t think it would be any less fun for the fans. the, five decades of not winning a championship. was kind of like those videos you see on YouTube where people get a two liter of diet Coke and
Terry Pluto (43:10.754)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (43:14.498)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (43:20.972)
No.
Terry Pluto (43:24.386)
Ugh.
Terry Pluto (43:30.264)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (43:30.894)
then they drop in a thing of Mentos, the candy, it explodes like a giant shooting. Like that’s what that was like, was like, was just all this pressure and angst and just disappointment that Cleveland fans as a whole had stored up for five decades. And then when they, when they won game seven, the Mentos just went into the whole thing. Just went just, it was just this stored up exuberance that just kind of burst out. But you know, guys who win the Stanley Cup, say that everyone is different, but it’s
Terry Pluto (43:34.988)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (43:39.724)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (44:00.428)
It’s never disappointing and it’s always joyful and you’ll never forget it. And I think that would be the same. I think you’re right about the brand of Cleveland would change from like, you guys won with LeBron to, wow, that was a really good team you guys had. And I love watching them play and they really represented Cleveland in a wonderful way. But there’s going be a lot of champagne corks popping if they win and it wouldn’t be one huge bottle of Diet Coke, but it would be a lot of champagne popping. think it would be fun, but in a different way.
Terry Pluto (44:14.39)
Hmm
David Campbell (44:30.201)
Terry Pluto (44:31.214)
And the nice thing is, you’re still building with this team. It isn’t a one and done prospect at all. I that’s part of the reason they went and made the trade for Hunter is he’s under contract for two more years after this. I forgot, I think he’s 27. You know, he’s in that late 20 period where in other words, he’s got a couple more good years left and fits in with all the other guys. I mean, this has been, we’ll see how goes in the playoffs, but Kobe’s master plan.
of keeping the roster together, extending Jared Allen. Now they gave the max contract to keep Moby, but I’m giving the max contract to Moby because I think there’s a lot more offense in the tank that we haven’t seen yet. mean, Kobe said that and he turns out he’s correct. know, and Moby would score even more points, but really you have Garland. have, you have so many guys that can score that it’s not imperative on him to do it at least in the regular season. I mean, I,
David Campbell (45:30.584)
Right.
Terry Pluto (45:31.628)
I just love the way they play, that’s all. And I like their spirit.
David Campbell (45:35.674)
OK, we do have one more Cavs email here that we got from Tom Kemp. He says, hi, guys. It’s interesting to note the offensive production from former University of Virginia players once they have escaped the defense first strategy that Tony Bennett demanded from players. UVA was year in and year out one of the top three scoring defenses in the country. And combine that with a low possession offense that meant players would rarely average more than 10 to 12 points a game.
Terry Pluto (45:50.158)
you
David Campbell (46:01.657)
Jerome averaged only nine points per game. Hunter, 12. Brogdon, 13. Joe Harris, 12. Trey Murphy, 11. Sam Hauser, 13. Jay Huff, seven points per game, et cetera, et cetera. Only Clay Thompson, who Bennett recruited while at Washington State, averaged more than 13 points a game in college. As each of these guys got to the NBA, they each proved to have strong offensive skills in production. It makes you wonder if UVA would have won one more national titles if they had focused more on offense.
and backed off on defense a bit, just worthless trivia perhaps, or maybe we should give Bennett more credit for the all-around players he recruited and developed. What do think of that one, Ter?
Terry Pluto (46:39.835)
How many of those guys too are big time McDonald’s All-Americans and all that? I would ask that question.
David Campbell (46:45.335)
Yeah, that’s a good... I wouldn’t say many.
Terry Pluto (46:47.342)
No. then, all right, so they’re not all these elite high school players. Then they go there, know, Tony Bennett beat you up, play defense, pass the ball, all that stuff. And they all roll into the NBA. And coaches want these guys. And then I’ll finally, Judge Campbell, will bring this to the court.
The only man ever to hold Michael Jordan under 20 points is, yes, cause this model I’ve been doing, it for Dean Smith or he averaged 18.9 in North Carolina. And a lot of other guys at North Carolina, James Worthy and I’d have to go back and look, but generally some of the stuff you heard about Tony Bennett was said about Dean Smith and, all Dean Smith could do is show you these pictures on the wall. was in his office.
David Campbell (47:17.835)
I’ve heard this joke before. It’s Dean Smith, the Tar Heels coach.
Terry Pluto (47:41.518)
All these NBA players. In fact, here’s an interesting thing about Dean Smith on his wall. Back then I he, he, I spent an hour one time with them in his office and yeah. yeah. I asked for an interview. Turned out he was a fan of loose balls and a couple other basketball books that I wrote. So, then on top of that, when I started telling him that I was a rookie full-time writer in Greensboro and he was nice to me and I appreciated it.
David Campbell (47:53.614)
Really?
Terry Pluto (48:08.438)
which he would, he had a thing after press conferences rather than just from the podium. He kind of go stand on the side because he figured if somebody wanted to do a little sidebar or something, he was there. He was always selling Carolina blue. But what he had on the wall is he had each graduating class and all the pictures of the guys were the same size. In other words, you know, he goes, well, here’s Bradley, you know, you know, here’s Brad, Dordie Bradley. He always called him. He talked about having to convince his mom to.
go to North Carolina because lefty Drizell who was at Maryland at the time had dad in there. So, you know, sometimes he goes, got to recruit the mom. But his point was they were all the same. And then the big pictures he had were team championship pictures. You know, now think about that, you know, no scoring averages, none of these other things. It was the Carolina way, the Carolina, the Bennett way at Virginia. And I know he had, I think it.
getting knocked out in the first round by Mercer or somebody like that one year. But the guy’s a heck of a coach. And then also he just quit before this year, the portal slash NIL. just got to him. The purest in them just couldn’t handle it. But let’s be thankful that Ty Jerome and Hunter got, had that guy because, and these other coat players that go into the league, coaches love to get their guys from, from, from there.
David Campbell (49:35.982)
Yeah. And I think something that NBA GMs are probably looking at more than points per game is like efficiency numbers, right? In terms of how many possessions you’re on the floor, how many you score and shooting, you know, how efficient you are in your plus minus and how much you help your team win. that’s a lot of these coaches don’t care about how many points a guy’s averaging. They just want you to play the right way. We’re going to, we’re going to play the right way. Yep.
Terry Pluto (49:42.114)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (49:58.382)
Yeah, because it’s like you’ll Right and you’ll and you’ll average it as it goes along and we’ll open the offense up and do different things to help you I Mean, remember when Doherty came and he was only 20 years old He graduated from high school at 16 played four years in North Carolina His fundamentals are terrific the pick and roll and all this stuff, you know, he was never a super physical player It just wasn’t Brad’s personality But he was almost a 2010 guy for most of his career
And there was never, and right away he and Mark Price developed such a nice combination on how to run the pick and roll and things like that. And I’d see a lot of that stuff with the Cavs, just guys who know how to play.
David Campbell (50:48.109)
All right, well the Cavs are home tonight against Brooklyn and they’re going to vacate the Rocket Arena for a few days while the Mid-American Conference Tournament is in town. So they’ll be playing at Memphis on Friday at eight and then they’re back home Sunday against Orlando and then on Tuesday the 18th, one week from today, they’ll be playing out in LA against the Clippers and that will start a five game Western swing. I wanted to mention, Terry, I don’t know if you saw this, but we had a story, the Cavs have trademarked the phrase, Cavalanch.
And they want to make t-shirts out of it. that’s a lot of fans love to see the Cavalanch when it happens when they
Terry Pluto (51:22.968)
Well, there you are. Okay. I’m not.
It certainly does. They could trademark anything. speaking of the Mac tournament, if you haven’t, the interesting, the story I did on John Gross, the coach at Akron in his eighth year is really worth reading about how after being fired at Illinois, he, you know, kind of rebuild his career in Akron has been here now longer than any other place. He’s coach guys really an excellent coach. And also I talked to Keith Dan brought, and I never thought Akron have would have a
Another coach did approach with Dan brought dead at Akron. and, this guy’s done it and he’s really, it’s an interesting, thing to talk about. Dan brought mentioned that of all the Mac schools, none of these places have big money rolling in, but he said that, gross has really been able to navigate, the transfer portal and NIL for mid majors very well.
which I did not know that, Keith would know his Akron native. He, after he retired from Duquesne, he’s come back here. He was part of the time here and part of the time in Florida.
David Campbell (52:37.325)
Well, and when you’re John Gross and you, I mean, they’re the number one seed in the MAG tournament, regular season champs, and he lost arguably the best player in program history last year to the NBA when Enrique Freeman left. So that’s when you go from being a team. Yeah. When you go from being a team, a good team to being a good program is when you can have losses like that in terms of graduation and people leaving and still win the regular season for your conference. That’s really impressive.
Terry Pluto (52:45.548)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. He lost like four starters. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (53:02.789)
Yeah, he, mean, and Rob Sanderoff’s done a really terrific job over the year at Kent. Kent’s had sustained excellence going all the way back to Gary Wilders and the, Gary Wilders, and I think he came in in like 1999, something like that. And so we’ve been fortunate with those two mid-major programs here. And Cleveland State’s done a nice job too. They, they petered out a little bit at the end of the season, but.
You know, Daniel Robinson won 21 games, I think for his third consecutive year there. Winning games at Cleveland State is tough. It really is. And, um, the two coaches in a row, Dennis Gates, who’s having a terrific year at Missouri and Danielle, uh, have, um, really got that program back on, uh, a course like it was with, uh, when Gary Waters went there and even go back to Kevin Mackey before that.
David Campbell (53:59.086)
All right. And again, the Mid-American Conference basketball tournament will be running Wednesday through Saturday downtown at the Rocket Arena. The women’s quarterfinals Wednesday, the men’s quarterfinals Thursday, and then all four semi-final games, women in the morning, men in the evening, are on Friday and then the championship games on Saturday. So some good basketball if you want to check that out. All right, Terry, let’s move to the Guardians here. We’re kind of getting far into spring training here and
We don’t really have lot of answers about second base and right field at this point, do we?
Terry Pluto (54:28.846)
Yeah, nobody wants to play second base. That’s it. Nobody wants to really take it over. My guy, Juan Brito, I think he’s two for a hundred. He’s got two home runs and that’s about it. Um, last time I looked, Angel Martinez was batting 130. Arias I think is up to 240, but he’s probably going to get the job cause he’s out of options. And I remember like one year they started with Yu Chang and I think Bobby Bradley because they’re kind of out of options. And I forgot what positions.
Chang was worked, he might’ve been trying to play a couple of positions, but, and Bradley at first, cause the also thing was nobody else at that time in Arizona was playing well enough to take the job away from the guy who was out of minor league options. So they’re probably give it to areas right field. I don’t know. Dave Campbell.
David Campbell (55:20.661)
That’s early. We’ll see how we’re doing in a couple weeks maybe.
Terry Pluto (55:22.262)
Yeah, I mean, I will say there’s big Chris and I guess I said a couple homers but but we’ll see any a will Brennan
David Campbell (55:31.383)
I mean, if they start the season with the big Christmas Brennan platoon, it’s probably OK, right? To start? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (55:36.642)
Yeah, I guess. Find out. I mean, they need big Christmas to hit 20 to 25 homers. And that means he’s got to just make more contact. I think Will Brennan is, Will Brennan I really thought would be a better hitter when it came out from the minors. I just did. I thought he’d be like around 280 with a OPS and a mid 700s. And I didn’t anticipate he would have such problems with left-handed pitching, but he does. last time I looked he was.
barely over 200 against lefties to the point where they just don’t play him against lefties anymore. And you know, there, there isn’t, um, there’s really nobody else on the horizon that you, you know, for the outfield that you could get all fired up about. mean, I’m so glad they made that trade for Lane Thomas because that takes care of centerfield. And, know, of course you have Quanan left.
David Campbell (56:32.409)
Well, speaking of some things that we’re not certain about, we’ve been talking the last couple of weeks, Terry, about how the guardians have just loaded up on starting pitchers, especially. it’s, it’s really, again, another reason that it’s good they did. Uh, speaking of things we don’t know a lot about, it’s like Luis Ortiz, right? The guy that they traded for this off season. Oh, and two with an era of 14.14, 11 or runs 12 hits in seven innings. And it’s.
Terry Pluto (56:40.112)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (57:01.067)
It’s a little concerning if you’re guardians fan, cause Steven Vogt is talking about, well, you know, every time he goes out, it’s great because our pitching guys get more data to sit down and go over stuff with him. It’s like, we’re almost to the middle of March here and it sounds like they’re still working with him on delivery or approach or pitch selection. it’s, it’s getting late early here, I guess, as Yogi Berra might say right back in the day.
Terry Pluto (57:24.267)
Mm-hmm and Sukoni Sukoni’s been bad to the guy they got in the neighbor deal
David Campbell (57:29.965)
Yeah, so it’s good that they’re loaded up. And the other thing that’s a positive, I guess, to help offset some of this uncertainty is that Logan Allen is pitching well, right?
Terry Pluto (57:38.294)
Yeah, Logan Allen’s played pitch really well. Mackenzie’s been up and down. I didn’t like the game the other day where he walked five guys. And that has been a big problem to him in the past.
Yeah, Gavin Williams has been great. I saw Gavin Williams throw on TV the other day and there, and unfortunately I’m not going to be able to make it to spring training this year. Same thing that happened last year. My mom, Melva, has had a health crisis this week. And so just as I was getting ready to go, that popped up. And last year, as we were getting ready to leave, she had a stroke. So, I mean, she’s 99, she’s still with us, but just hanging on. I won’t.
We won’t get Roberto’s player, the prospect of the, maybe the guardians just fly her out for three days. Send her down to minor league camp. Send her down to minor league camp. She’ll take her little notebook out and come back with a couple of names. but Gavin, I watched on TV, Gavin’s thrown great. And I was talking to Tom Hamilton about that and Alan, I liked him when he first came up, you he struggled some last year, but I mean, he’s a left handed guy who can, if he just gets it.
David Campbell (58:28.419)
Yeah, it’s consonant.
David Campbell (58:35.139)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (58:52.46)
this refines his control and things. think he could win a lot of games for them. You know, yeah, by B. but they’re, you know, they’re scrambling for starters and they made this big move for Ortiz and you sort of hate when I start talking about getting more data. Well, you should have had a whole bunch of data when you got them.
David Campbell (59:11.353)
Yeah, it just sounds like they’re trying to kind of give the car a tune up while it’s running down the road in Arizona a little bit. it’s doable.
Terry Pluto (59:17.55)
Mm-hmm. They can say whatever they want. They’re not thrilled about that. I mean, this is not like you brought in a guy who’s pitched in the big leagues for 10 years and won 150 games and you’re not real worried about it. Although I remember one of the things that really stood out to me is this is the middle 90s and the guard and the tribe, the tribe brought in
David Campbell (59:21.463)
Yeah, yeah.
Terry Pluto (59:46.69)
Dennis Martinez and Oral Hersheiser. And I watched these guys in spring training and boy, boy, they’re ready to go right away. In shape, I’m not saying they were thrown as hard as it was in regular season, but like work in the corners. Now granted, those are two accomplished, experienced pitchers. But they also looked like they’re ready to make the team.
David Campbell (01:00:14.819)
Right out of the box, yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:00:15.702)
right out of the box and you know they would be working on something but it just that’s why you see you know Ortiz and he said well sometimes you just have an outing and the winds blowing and it gets wild out there but Ortiz has had two of them.
David Campbell (01:00:32.557)
Yeah. And with McKenzie being out of options to the miners, there’s going to be some early decisions that are going to have to be made here in terms of who to carry. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:00:40.014)
Yeah, well, that’ll probably keep him. They’ll probably keep him. mean, maybe what you do with him, maybe just throw him the bullpen. That’s the John Hart thing. got, I remember, and I’m sure he got it from some Hank Peters or some other guy who probably got it from Branch Rickey because Hank Peters worked for Branch Rickey. And I remember it was like Branch Rickey, know, who invented the farm system, invented the farm system. And then, you know, later on brought Jackie Robinson into the major leagues. Branch Rickey would
You know, was probably said something like he’s got a good arm. Just put them in the bullpen and give them a probably. And John Hart’s line was you give them a pitch and a half. And I remember asking, does that mean? goes, well, he’s got one really good pitch and he’s got, say he’s got a great fastball and then he could either maybe throw a slider or a curve ball some of the time, but you don’t want it to be too often a pitch and a half simplified.
David Campbell (01:01:30.039)
Yeah, and through the lineup no more than one time so that nobody sees it. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:01:32.852)
One time, yeah, that was it. And then he says, sometimes, which we saw with Carlos Carrasco and maybe a few others over the years, they rebuilt their confidence and they went back into the rotation. You know, that sometimes happens. Now the Orioles, I know I’ve been reminiscing, but when they would bring up most of their starters, most of their young pitchers, they immediately were put in the bullpen and they were like long relief in that.
And then they work into the rotation, but they were so loaded with so many great starters, they could, they could do that.
David Campbell (01:02:06.487)
Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s hard to believe, Terry, baseball season starts a week from today. Did you realize that? The 18th and 19th, the Cubs and the Dodgers will be playing in Japan to open the season and they’ll be coming back for the regular portions of their schedule. But yeah, it’s coming up fast. And they’ll the Cubs and Dodgers will have an early start on the season a week from today. So all right. Anything else on the guardians you want to get into real quick? I think that might do it right.
Terry Pluto (01:02:12.514)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:02:23.885)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:02:32.46)
I think that’s it.
David Campbell (01:02:34.041)
All right, we do have one kind of baseball email here that’s spring training. So I thought I would throw it on here. It’s from longtime listener Neil from Jamestown, New York. And he says, hey, Terry, I have an unusual Cleveland baseball fan history. I grew up in Northeast Ohio, but also moved to Tucson in 1990 where the tribe held spring training at high Corbett field. During this time, Sandy Alomar Jr. was a rookie and Kenny Lofton played for the AAA Tucson Toros, the Astros affiliate.
Clearly remember Lofton being traded to the Tribe for catcher Eddie Taubensee. I also remember seeing Albert Bell play and a monster home run hit by Jose Canseco over the Marlboro Man sign in left center. Of note, High Corbett Field is featured in the movie Major League. I have very fond memories of Tucson. I wonder what your memories are of the Tucson High Corbett Spring Training Era.
Terry Pluto (01:03:25.038)
Yeah, because I was on the tri beat from 80 through 84 for five years. And that’s when they did train in Tucson. Well, among other things, you were down there by yourself in Tucson. All the other teams were up in Phoenix or how about this? The Padres were in Yuma and the angels were in Palm Springs. I do recall a road runner showing up
and a diamond and Jerry Dzinski having to, the shortstop who played at Collinwood, having to chase the bird off the feed. did not run as fast as the road runner in the cartoon. He was sort of strutting around and all this.
David Campbell (01:04:07.769)
Did he use one those big Acme anvils to try and drop on him? No?
Terry Pluto (01:04:09.896)
Nah, I just sort of like, know, I’m a star, leave me alone. And then two of them showed up when they played in Yuma. So that was the, you did not see that in Phoenix. So they did have road runners there. Not quite like the alligators at, in Winter Haven, but you know, some wildlife stories. It also was a place that seems like it was really hot and the wind blew out a lot. And so you would have a lot of guys at Big Springs and...
then all of a sudden the temperature would drop and the balls would break even more so than in Phoenix and they would be exposed. I do remember Joe Charbonneau coming in there after only playing double A. They had traded for him from the Phillies and he hit about 600 between like A games and they had B games in two and sometimes he played in both and.
that Desert Air, of course he won rookie of the year that year in 80 also. For better or worse, I nicknamed him Super Joe. There was a place, Super Joe from Kokomo from Damn Yankee, so I some fun with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there we go. Well, Bob Dolgan named Sam McDowell, Sudden Sam, yes he did. Although one time Sam had had more than a few drinks and saw Dolgan in the bar and.
David Campbell (01:05:16.313)
That was your nickname that you names really? I never knew that super Joe Charbonneau. That was you. Sudden to San McDonnell. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:05:31.956)
wanted to, they began wanting to have some fisticuffs and I forgot who stepped in between Dahlgren and McDowell, some catcher or somebody to save Dahlgren’s life. but that was, yeah, Super Joe for better or worse. But, I just remember hot wind blowing out and road runners from high corporate field.
David Campbell (01:05:51.593)
Awesome. All right. Well, if you have any questions comments anything else for the podcast Be sure to send it to us at sports at cleveland.com Just put terry’s talking in the subject line We’ll try and get it rolled into an upcoming podcast So we get a lot of great emails and questions and comments and stories from fans and we appreciate it. So I think we’re good right terry we done. All right Thanks everybody for listening. I do want to mention in two weeks two weeks
Terry Pluto (01:06:12.308)
I am done. Yes.
David Campbell (01:06:18.499)
from tomorrow, March 26th, you have an appearance at the Walls of Books in Parmiton, right Terry?
Terry Pluto (01:06:23.434)
In Parma, Parma town. Yeah. Well, also books in Parma town 6 PM it’s free. and usually I’ve done that there a couple of times. My old neighborhood is Parma just down the street, Westminster drive. And that’s part of the reason I take that also as an independent bookstore that you want to kind of want to kind of help keep them and be in business. So March 26th, come on out and
Don’t tell the bookstore, but if you have some my old books you could bring them in a bag and I’ll sign them too But I’m sure they’d like you to buy the books there, but either way whatever it is. I’ll sign it
David Campbell (01:06:56.589)
Yeah, well supporting the local bookstore is always a great idea. it’s a great thing to mention. So, all right, everybody. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week to talk more about spring training and see what the Browns are doing. And man, March Madness will be starting. I don’t know, we can touch on that a little bit too. We’ll see who wins the Mac tournament and goes dancing. So we’ll talk to you next week on Terry’s Talking.