CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s March, and yet the Cavs have locked up homecourt advantage for the first round of the playoffs and the Central Division for the first time since 2018.
In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Jimmy Watkins and Ashley Bastock break down how the Cavs got to this point through their latest win over the Brooklyn Nets.
Takeaways:
Cavs clinched the central division title after the win.
Darius Garland matched the Nets' scoring in the fourth quarter by himself.
The Cavs are on a 15-game winning streak, matching a franchise record.
Jarrett Allen’s rebounding and defensive presence were key factors in Tuesday’s game.
The team won despite shooting below 27% from beyond the arc for the first time this season.
The Cavs' ability to win in different ways is a positive sign for playoffs.
Kenny Atkinson’s coaching strategies and experimentation could pay dividends in the playoffs.
The Cavs still need to prove themselves in the playoffs to secure their ultimate goal as an organization.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. We are coming to you guys after the Cavs' latest victory, 109-104 over the Brooklyn Nets. And we have a very special guest for you guys today. Ashley Bastock is joining us from the Cleveland Browns beat.
She’ll be joining us for the remainder of the home games this season. If you see her face, if you see her work, you will enjoy it. I promise you, she has done great work with the Browns over the last few years. And she’ll be joining us with her presence alongside me, Jimmy, and your favorite beat reporter, Chris Fedor. So let’s get into tonight’s matchup and see what everybody has to say about this one. As we all know, I’m gonna get into the stats.
of the overall matchup where the Cavs lay after this game. They’re 55 and 10 on a 15 game winning streak. They have now clinched the central division after tonight’s win. guys, we obviously know that this game, as it has seemed since the All-Star break, was a teeter totter effect. This is the Cavs 12th time winning after trailing by double digits.
and their fifth comeback win when trailing by 15 points or more this season. Jimmy, I know we’ve talked about this being a potential concern this season, but they keep pulling out wins. Can the Cavs keep getting away with this?
Jimmy Watkins (01:50.131)
I mean, it’s the regular season. yeah, particularly against teams like the Brooklyn Nets. think this one is more of a mixed bag than even the last few have been. This is pretty darn close being their ugliest loss of the season. The Nets were in the second half of back to back. just, the Nets, not only that, they expended a lot of energy last night in beating the Lakers, coming back down from 15 in Brooklyn. No D’Angelo Russell tonight. Yes, the Cavs were shorthanded, but they were, they had the rest advantage.
They have a winning streak there at home for presumably many reasons and the opportunity to hang a banner, I guess. We’re hanging a central division champions banner in the practice facility now. like presumably many reasons for the Cavs to care about this game. I also think that the rest strategy that Kenny’s been deploying could in theory, although it didn’t really tonight to start the game, add a little bit more juice to the guys who are playing. It’s like, okay, we don’t have Don.
We don’t have Deandre Hunter, we don’t have Ty Jerome. That should inject some juice into the guys who are playing, least keep them more alert. It didn’t, the Caps fell behind by as many as 18 against the Nets. By the way, we should tip our Caps to the Brooklyn Nets, who at this point have pretty much nothing to play for. They’re falling further and further out of the play-in race. They are basically just a bunch of...
dudes playing for their NBA careers at this point. And that shows they’re playing their tails off. Jordi Fernandez is doing a good job of keeping Hope alive over there. But when the Cavs did turn the tide, it was nice to see them ratchet up the defense again. It’s a nice reminder that when they’re locked in and protecting the lead, the bigs on the court in the fourth quarter, they really just turn your water off if you’re not a really high level NBA offense. I the Nets win.
The last five minutes of the game, scored, they hit three field goals and Darius Garland scored as many points, I believe 18 as the Nets did the entire fourth quarter. So that’s nice to see. It’s also nice to see Darius Garland after this weird mini slump. sent a text out to the subtext subscribers at halftime, like, okay, Darius Garland shouldn’t 34 % since he’s come back from this mysterious fall that.
Jimmy Watkins (04:11.807)
We thought was a face injury. turned out to be a hip injury and he has not, he’s basically scoring 16, 17 a game on 16 shots since that. And he was two for seven in the first half. I guess, nevermind. He was incredible in the fourth quarter. He had a lot of offensive load on his shoulders. Kenny played him a little bit more and a little bit earlier in the fourth quarter than they normally do. And he hit the one shot that’ll stand out to me is against Cam Johnson when he had the little pickup.
and then kind of the mini step back off one foot, the floater over Cam Johnson, that’s just absolutely disgusting. yeah, mixed bag. You don’t love to have to come back 18 points down against the Brooklyn Nets, but how much complaining can you really do when you have won your 15th straight game?
Ethan Sands (05:05.506)
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a lot to unpack there, Jimmy, right? We talked a lot about the 15-game winning streak. They’re the sixth team in NBA history to have multiple 15-game win streaks in a single season. But obviously, I think we have to break this down quarter by quarter. And I think the first quarter kind of goes in the rearview mirror after this one, because nobody really had a good showing of it.
except for Evan Mobley in the first half entirely. He had eight points in the first quarter, was three or four from the field. And then in the second quarter, he came away with six points on three of three from the field. And we obviously know that the Cavs went into halftime trailing after just scoring 50 points in the first half. Ashley, it’s been a while since you’ve seen the Cavs play. You hear all these raving reviews.
about the Cleveland Cavaliers, especially this season. And then you see him come and see this dud in the first half. What was your takeaway? And then what did you see in the second half that really changed your mind on your first perception of the Cavs for this season?
Ashley Bastock (06:17.063)
Well, my first thought was cast fans are not going to want me back at any more games if they lose and end this winning streak because, as you said, Ethan, this is my first time back seeing them in person and covering them in a while. And that was honestly my first thought is, no, what if I jinx the hottest team in the NBA? Because I’m naturally anxious and that’s what was on my mind. And I expected it to be a little bit ugly, just
obviously knowing no Donovan Mitchell, no Deandre Hunter, no Ty Jerome. Like, three key players were not going to be in this one, and I was expecting it to be a bit of a a slugfest, too, knowing Brooklyn’s record. They’re very scrappy, but coming into the second half throughout, really, the third quarter to me felt like, okay, they’re still down, but I actually think they’re going to win
it was a couple of things that happened. Craig Porter Jr. obviously hits that insane, yet somehow the most nonchalant half court buzzer beater that I’ve seen, and I believe that cut the deficit to eight at that point heading into the fourth. So were back down to single digits. But also Jared Allen just went on this tear with offensive boards, and he had four in the third quarter, he had five in the second half, six for the game.
And I think when you have a player that is that commanding on the offensive glass go on a run like that that can really turn the tide. I think he did. We heard Kenny Atkinson, Darius Garland talk about that too after the game. And then obviously as you laid out, Ethan Darius took over in the fourth quarter. So to me it was as advertised with them being this team that hey they sometimes start slow they can get themselves out of these messes but
I think the perpetual worry with them is, okay, what’s gonna happen come April, May, when you’re getting into these messes in a playoff series?
Ethan Sands (08:26.382)
And I think that’s a great point because this Cavs team, as we heard in the locker room after the game, aren’t even aware sometimes of what they accomplished, right? Like they’re not talking about this 15 game win streak. We were talking to Jared Allen about clinching the central division for the first time since the 2017-2018 season. And he goes, what did we do? Like while trying to answer the question. And it just, it’s so apparent that this Cavs team is not only
not necessarily worried about banking wins anymore. Obviously we know that they are going to go for this regular season record of trying to get to 67 wins in a season. But the understanding is every single game is now preparing them for what is to come in April, May and June. And the biggest thing when it comes to this conversation is how their rotation and how their depth is gonna fare against these upper echelon teams.
And I think that’s a good point you make about Donovan, Ty, and Deandre being out. And to me, it feels like it could have been strategic as well, knowing that Kenny Atkinson likes to be an experimental coach, we heard, and called him a mad scientist on this podcast multiple times. Jimmy, when you look at what the rotation players were able to give tonight, we understand that Darius
Darius, Evan and Jared Allen combined for 74 of the Cavs, 109 points, which is astronomical. But we’ve seen other players do the same as well against the Cavs as we talked about on our latest five Cavs with Giannis and Dames scoring 75 points against the Cavs in their first matchup. When you look at this rotation, when you look at the guys having to step up,
around them and we know that there wasn’t a whole lot going out. What stood out to you around the margins? Because obviously we’re going to get into the big three players, the core four that was available tonight, but I’m interested to see what nuances you picked up on in tonight’s game.
Jimmy Watkins (10:40.027)
Well, from the, mean, the idea of taking DeAndre Donovan and Ty out, the idea there is to empower some other guys. And I do continue to be intrigued by the Craig Porter Jr. break class in case of emergency minutes or the DMP rest minutes that he ends up getting. We’re still waiting on the three pointer to come around when he’s not launching it from 50 feet. It’s a little bit hit or miss. He’s not taking a ton of them, but he does a lot of other
really useful end of bench guy things like stuff that that people in his position need to do to continue getting minutes. just had a couple of plays in that where he’s maybe he’s not grabbing the offensive rebound himself, but he’s tipping it, keeping it alive. He’s fighting for loose ball. He creates possessions. He creates energy when he’s when he’s on the court. Beyond that, I mean, it was kind of a
a tough showing for the non-core four guys who were out there, but I do think it’s interesting. Two things. I think every time that one of Darius or Donovan is sitting, it’s a very important opportunity for Evan Mobley to get more reps as a hub of the offense, particularly early on. Kenny had Evan on the court at the end of the first quarter as basically the only all-star level.
facilitator on the court and they were running a lot of offense through him. I think that’s always something to watch and he started strong. I he had eight points and three assists after the first quarter. The other thing is Kenny’s been talking a lot about, okay, so the first part of the season, we were managing minutes. We’re trying to keep everyone as close to 30 as we can. We’re trying to lean on our depth. We’ll know Donovan tonight. Darius Garland played his second highest minute total of the season.
Tonight not the part of that is circumstantial. The game is closer than I’m sure they wanted it to be. I the Cavs are like 17 point favorites tonight and Darius got it going in the second half and Kenny was leaning on he talked about it after the game was a conversation where he’s like, Hey, we’re going to start the fourth quarter with you. We’re going to lean on you a little bit harder here. That all makes sense. But it’s also in service of like we’re a month out from the playoffs essentially at this point and we’re going to need you to play this level of
Jimmy Watkins (12:59.861)
minute load down the road, if not more. So that’s part of Kenny’s grand plan as well as, Hey, we, we, we’ve spent a lot of time resting you and, watching your, watching your workload, leaning on the sports science. Now we’re trying to get your body used to what is to come down the road with the playoffs, where we’re going to need you to handle more on-ball duties. And, and mean, even like.
on much, much smaller scale. The way that Cam Thomas was attacking Darius in the first half, mighty successfully, I might add. Like that’s a little playoff sampler too. You’re gonna have to, the other team’s best player is going to put you in screens and try to get you on a switch and attack you. So it’s the Brooklyn Nets. There’s very few things about playing against the Brooklyn Nets that’s gonna simulate a playoff environment. But that workload at both ends of the floor in that minute load.
is a small taste of what could prepare the calves for what’s coming.
Ethan Sands (14:01.122)
And I want to get into that Cam Thomas thing just a little bit because it was apparent that Cam Thomas thought that he could go at Darius Garland on every single possession down the floor. And Cam Thomas is one of those guys that can get a little mouthy. We know he likes to talk his trash.
Jimmy Watkins (14:18.485)
To be fair, Cam Thomas thinks he can do that to anybody. Cam Thomas is a real gunner’s gunner.
Ethan Sands (14:21.4)
Correct.
Yeah, if you like high volume shooting, if you like guys that don’t care if they’re making or missing, if you’re a big Kobe guy, you might be a fan of Cam Thomas because of how he shoots the ball. But I do want to credit the Cavs for what they were able to do in the second half against Cam Thomas and how they were able to change their scheme a little bit in defending him and also throwing different bodies at him. Obviously, in the first half, he was 6 of 9 from the field, 2 of 3 from 3 for 16 points.
But in the second half, he did have 11 points, but it came a lot more difficult. was four of 13 from the field, two of eight from three. And we got to see a lot of different players get to stick their nose in there and try and throw their best at him. Obviously, good credit to Isaac Okoro on that second half defense. We heard Kenny Atkinson praise him and his defensive effort. Obviously, we know that Isaac didn’t have the best offensive game, but a lot of these guys, and I think that’s a big portion of
what we have to discuss with Donovan, Ty, and De’Andre being out is a lot of these guys' roles when those guys are on the floor generally is on the defensive-minded aspect where they understand that they don’t need the ball in their hands to score. They don’t need the ball in their hands. They’re more spacing. They’re more pawns in the chess game that allow Donovan, Darius, Evan, Jared to get open and create space. And also for these other shooters like Max Struce, Ty Jerome, De’Andre Hunter.
The list goes on, Sam Mero as well. But as Ashley mentioned, the third quarter was led by Jared Allen. That’s a huge third quarter from him. He ended up having a double-double in the second half of the game alone and then leading into Darius Garland’s 18.4th quarter. I just want to get Ashley, your perspective on a player being able to flip a switch like that, because...
Ethan Sands (16:20.962)
Darius has been called Mr. Fourth Quarter now, our good friend of the podcast, Chris Fedor, wrote an article that came out this morning about this and how he’s kind of ascended his game back to where it was a couple of years ago when he was an All-Star. And for a player to go from having one of the worst games that we can see and trying to chuck some threes up, all these other things, to coming up and being the fourth quarter hero of the game, what did you see that changed for him
And for me, it was aggressiveness and like taking the ball and basically saying, nobody else on the court can guard me. I’m just going to go at it and see what I can make up.
Ashley Bastock (16:59.079)
think the aggressiveness was such a big part of that and Kenny Atkinson talked about that after the game where, you know, we talked about Cam Thomas hunting Darius a lot in the first half. It felt like Darius wasn’t hunting anyone when he went on that run and he was just being aggressive and playing his game. When I watch Darius, I think he’s at his best kind of going to the rim. He makes some of these contested shots look
so effortless. And those, to me, are kind of the best Darius Garland plays. mean, amazing threes, nonwithstanding. I really think that is the most intriguing and hard to defend part of his game, because he’s a guy who, when he gets to the rim, he’s not going to be rattled, no matter who is guarding him. And that is really intimidating. But yeah, I think the way they were able to get physical with the Nets, and the Nets obviously are not on the same playing field as them right now.
that that allowed Darius, it almost was like it emboldened him to take his aggressiveness to that next level offensively, and that started with a guy like Jared Allen on the other end, and with Isaac Okoro, you know, Isaac Okoro 0 for 5 from 3, 3 of 10 from the field today. That’s not the best shooting day, obviously, and I don’t think when you’re in the playoffs you’re going to want Isaac Okoro taking those five three-pointers at all, but
He still finished plus seven in this game. I was kind of surprised when I saw those shooting sets and saw his plus minus number. So I think all of those things in the third quarter really helped allow Darius to take more of those risks in the fourth.
Jimmy Watkins (18:37.619)
I have such a... I have such a... and again, mixed bag watching Isaac Kukuro in this game. Because on the one hand, he really did, like particularly in the fourth quarter, he was awesome.
on Cam Thomas, like Cam Thomas was invisible and that’s the guy that the Nets rely on to create a lot of shots for them. Again, particularly with D’Andre Russell out with the, I think it was a right ankle injury. At the same time, I’m watching Isaac left wide open on two of those above the break fourth quarter threes. misses, he misses two free throws down the stretch and I’m just thinking.
Man, I just don’t know. I don’t know if we can. I don’t know how much, how many Acoro minutes the Cavs can afford if he’s going to be doing that in the playoffs. did a basketball reference, highlight of, of Isaac Acoro’s last 15 games, the 15 games he has played during the new year. He, like everyone else on the Cavs and, before the new year was shooting out of his mind.
Since we flipped the calendar Isaac Acura was shooting 24.4 % from three on two point seven three point attempts per game shooting thirty six point four percent from the field He obviously he was hurt there’s two separate Absences that is that are involved in that span so it’s it’s hard for him to get a rhythm the Cavs also brought in Deandre Hunter in that time
So that’s, that’s kind of changes Isaac’s world a little bit here. I think that’s why the, that Kenny tries to start them whenever he can to try to inject a little bit more confidence in them. But we’re in a very weird place with Isaac Coro, both in the macro and the micro in the micro. just told you he’s not shooting very well after having another career start to the year in the macro. He’s playing on the qualifying offer.
Jimmy Watkins (20:40.937)
And now his minutes are going down and I’m not sure how big his playoff role is going to be on this team. I mean, obviously it’s matchup dependent when you have a small guard on the other side that you that you need to keep in check, you’re going to at least give him a chance. But I just, I watch teams leave him open more and more now I watch him struggle to hit those open shots. And I’m just, and I also watch how great Deandre Hunter and Dean Wade look as wing defenders.
just like, I don’t know, man. I don’t know where he fits into this puzzle.
Ashley Bastock (21:14.109)
Well, and neither of you guys were around yet. I sound like back in my day, and I’m the only 30 year old on this podcast, but back in my day, like three years ago, four years ago, like the Atlanta Hawks in the playing game, Trey Young just hunted poor Isaac. Like it was brutal. It was brutal to watch. The Nets did it the game before. And then the Nets kind of did it again the following year in, I want to say that one was.
I’m getting my ears confused. think the first one was 2022 with Trey Young and then 2023. They kind of did it again. So it has been brutal at times to watch him in those playoff scenarios and teams essentially saying, hey, we’re going to put our star player on you because they don’t have to defend you. And then they’re going to go off and score like 30 or 40 points. And it’s been interesting. I mean, I think he is not the same player exactly that he was then.
But to Jimmy’s point, I think you, he can still kind of be that liability potentially in big moments. And then I get really curious, you know, this is the first time Kenny Atkinson, I think is such a good late game manager, but we know playoff rotations shrink. So I get really curious to try and figure out, okay, what’s that mean for a guy like him? What does it mean for a guy like Craig Porter? Those are kind of the things that you have to be thinking about when you get into April, especially with those kind of guys.
Ethan Sands (22:38.668)
Yeah, and just for some background, because I was at shoot around today and obviously, Jimmy, as you know, Ashley, as you know, from past references, like Isaac O’Coro, every time we walk into the practice facility at Cleveland Clinic Courts is getting the almost the same workout in, the three point workout in that he continuously works on. But today I was close enough to be able to hear how he was ending his workout.
And he was trying to make six of 10 contested threes from the right corner with an assistant coach and a trainer coming at him with one of the big broom joints that is seven feet tall and all that. And he was supposed to hit six of 10. And it took him till the third time of going through this. my favorite thing about Isaac is he’s relentless.
in his work, in his practice, in games, all these different things. That’s why the Cavs love him, because he’s an effort guy. He’s going to give you 110 % every time down the floor. But it did take him till his third go round of 10 shots to get the six of 10. I think he ended up making seven of 10 to be able to go home. But it’s definitely after that shoulder injury, it feels like he’s just now starting to get the flow back, get the feel back.
of his jump shot. And we saw it at the beginning of the season. Like if we’re talking about early season, Isaac O’Coral, we’re having a completely different conversation than we are right now because we’re seeing the change in his shot and how that’s been affecting him and the Cavs. Obviously, 0-5 is not what anybody wants to shoot. But I think Jimmy made a really good point when he talked about how Dean Wade was able to make an impact tonight, obviously 24 minutes. And we’ve talked about how
with DeAndre Hunter being on the squad now, there’s a feeling that Dean Wade’s versatility is not as needed unless he’s playing alongside DeAndre Hunter on the defensive end, because you can throw guys like, say, Cam Johnson, or let’s say other teams star players and have DeAndre Hunter hunt them on the defensive end instead of having Dean Wade being us.
Ethan Sands (24:55.79)
put on them. That’s kind what the Cavs have done at length this season. So having all of those different options, now you see Deandre Hunter’s offensive numbers and defensive numbers, plus the net rating of that when he’s on the floor with this Cavs core four. I think that is what’s making it harder for Dean Wade and Isaac Coro to get minutes. But as we’ve talked about and as Ashley mentioned,
Like the rotations are gonna shrink during the playoffs just because of the amount of minutes that the starters and the stars are gonna play. But speaking of the players that can make an impact and have been joining this team, we got to see a little bit more, Javante Green minutes tonight to me. And I just wanted to pick your brain on what you thought of those, six and a half minutes that he got. because I know that Craig Porter Jr.
had some run earlier on, we knew that was gonna happen with Ty Jerome and Donovan Mitchell being out. needed an extra ball handler. I was curious to see if they were gonna use Craig in the fourth quarter. They didn’t, they used Darius Garland for the entirety, obviously for known reasons, even though he didn’t have a great first three quarters. So Jimmy, when you throw in Javante Green into this mix, he’s kind of a wing player. And we’ve talked about the wing depth going from like two to like six players now.
So now you throw Gervonta Green into this mix of, should he come in with Isaac Acuro, Dean Wade, Deandre Hunter. I think Kenny Atkinson the other day said throw Sam Merrill in this conversation too, which I think is a little bit wild. But what do you think about Gervonta Greensman as how he fit in, what he was able to accomplish or what he wasn’t able to accomplish?
Jimmy Watkins (26:39.445)
I mean the Gervonta Green conversation that’s getting into what we talked about this before the Cavs before we knew who the bio guy was gonna be if the Cavs bio guy is getting consistent minutes in the playoffs something bad happened either you know a couple guys have lost their jump shot or somebody got hurt everyone knock on wood in unison I think Gervonta Green
brings a good amount of athleticism, although he did get rim stuffed on a dunk today. That was unfortunate. and he’s hit a couple threes, but the reality is, is that he’s been here for nine games now and he has logged one, two, three, four, five DMPs and he’s played over 10 minutes one time. Even tonight when you got three key rotation guys resting, he played what he plays seven minutes.
And I believe all seven of those, where are we at here? Yeah. All six and a half, all six and a half of those minutes were in the first half. So Kenny tried him. He wants to give him a look. wants to keep, mean, Gervonta is a veteran, a professional. So can be, can be ready whenever called upon. We saw that the other day. What was the good Gervonta green game against Chicago. He helped key the, the, the, the, the big time run against Chicago in the fourth quarter.
But I Kenny tried it, didn’t necessarily love what he saw on a night where you are playing more of the two bigs you don’t have as much offensive firepower. I don’t know if that’s your Givante green moment necessarily. I think he’s a guy that will play very spotly in the playoffs. Maybe if you need, if you feel like it’s a situate, like a defensive situational thing, or do you feel like
I could see him being a guy where Kenny’s like, you know what, I don’t like what I’m seeing right now. You guys are kind of playing a little lackadaisical. So here goes my Energizer bunny, Javante Green. Go muck up the game a little bit and remind these guys what it looks like to play with your hair on fire a little bit.
Jimmy Watkins (28:48.519)
I mean, don’t, know Javante Green made a three tonight. I know he missed a dunk. he, didn’t, Kenny tried him. didn’t, he didn’t stick with him very long. I don’t think that he’s going to factor into the playoff rotation very much unless again, something is amiss.
Ethan Sands (29:04.841)
And I think the most important thing, because we talked a lot about the offense on tonight’s podcast, but the defense is what changed the game. And I feel like what we continuously talked about is there’s been one player that’s been able to stick out offensively for the Cavs, but overall in the second half where these teams have been able to, or this Cavs team has been able to call back from multiple deficits.
is that they just flipped the switch defensively. Like they’ve had a different level of intensity throughout the second half of the game. And obviously we talked a lot about Jared Allen on tonight’s podcast, but he had three blocks. ended the game with three blocks and that’s like just Jared, but also we got to mention and we talked about Isaac and Gervonta and different guys stepping up. Sam Merrill is another guy that still is continuously fighting to be acknowledged as a defender. And I know we hate-
Having people come and talk to us on feedback on the podcast saying Sam Mero is not a defender. Well, he was a plus plus nine and he made one three tonight. He was one of six. So like the proof is in the pudding when it comes to this defense. There were multiple 26, three, six rebound. Yep. And there were multiple 20, 24 second shot clock violations forced by the Cavs.
Jimmy Watkins (30:16.617)
Six rebounds. Six rebounds for Sam Merrill.
Ethan Sands (30:26.86)
because of the hounding of multiple players and then closing out these possessions with rebounds is the most important thing that you can do. I mean, you allowed eight offensive rebounds and we talked about it, Allen had six of his own. So that’s almost negating what the Brooklyn Nets were able to do, shutting off plays. And that’s the biggest thing for this team and what Kenny Atkinson has continuously preached is the possession game, especially in a contest.
where they don’t shoot the ball well. Like we have not seen many games this season where the Cavs have won contests when shooting below 30%, much less when they shoot below 25 % from three point range. This is a three point shooting team, the best three point shooting team in the NBA. And yet they were able to pull out a win against the Brooklyn Nets, albeit it is the Brooklyn Nets without D’Angelo Russell.
even though they were down 18 points at one point. I just think it continues to show you what this Cavs team is capable of on both ends of the floor. And they continuously find ways to win games in different ways. Because Ashley, I want to end with this with you. When you see a team that is able to win in different ways, but it’s also the fact that they’re just so
unpredictable. Like they can win in close games. And I think that’s another tactical thing that Kenny Atkinson is doing recently is like, we are going to be put in these difficult situations. And Jared Allen said it after the game, every postseason game is going to be different. We talked about it last year with him again in the Orlando series when he was like first to 85. And then in the Boston Celtics series is how many points can you score?
So for this team to be this unpredictable and be able to win so many different ways, but also to win tight contest, how important do you think or how beneficial do you think that it is going to be for this particular Cavs team going forward into the playoffs?
Ashley Bastock (32:34.247)
Well, I think it’s beneficial to be faced with all of these different scenarios, but I would argue, and Kenny Atkinson talked a little bit about this in the pregame, like this idea of there hasn’t been that sort of traditional slump that a team hits. And I don’t think you necessarily need a slump, right? But this, whole thing of like the dog days of January in the NBA, that’s been a thing forever.
and they never really gotten a rut, and that’s great, right? Like it’s why you lead the NBA and wins, but at the same time it almost, not to be a W downer, but it almost scares me a little bit, because even though they’ve been faced with all these different scenarios in games, they’ve not been faced with, okay we’ve lost a ton of games in a row, or we’ve lost you know five games in a row, and we got to figure out how to dig our way out, that they’ve not been pressed with those opportunities late, and I do think
that is beneficial. And they played, you know, like Boston, OKC, Bright. Like we’ve seen them lose big games this year and have to figure out a way to come back from it. We’ve seen winstrengths and have to figure out a way to come back from it. So while it’s like beneficial, okay, they’ve had to win games in different ways. They haven’t had that one big problem to solve and adversity overcome in that way that
it’s like that could be a great thing or it could be something that ultimately is holding them back and it’s just something we’re not going to know until they get in the postseason and are in a seven game series and are fighting to stay alive. And I think it’s the same way with how they’re flipping a switch and winning some of these games, right? Like this could be something that in June we’re like, my gosh, of course this team was destined to make the finals or whatever because they just always would find a way to win in the regular season.
Or we could be sitting here in May being like, well, they were fighting with that switch all season. And of course, this is what happened if they get knocked out. Like, I think you just, truly can’t know because really they’re a team that doesn’t have like a ton of experience with this yet. So we got to see them in this situation before we can dissect, I guess, like what this flipping of the switch and the way they’ve dealt with adversity.
Ashley Bastock (34:56.852)
how that impacts them.
Jimmy Watkins (35:00.341)
Yeah, were using, it wasn’t that long ago. I know a lot’s changed. I’m very confident that there’s gonna be a different team in the playoffs this year, but wasn’t that long ago we were talking about the F word last year in the playoffs, front runners. Remember that? Orlando Magic Series, where we were talking about the ebbs and flows of the playoffs and how the Cavs...
It looked like the Orlando Magic were never going to score another basket in first two home games. And then the Cavs went and got absolutely tattooed in two games on the road in Orlando. Couldn’t win on the road against the Orlando Magic who, mean, that was both of those offenses were putrid in that first round. And I, I like Kenny stomping for his guys. love, mean, Darius in the fourth quarter all year has been incredible to watch Kenny, Kenny
You know, made his case for clutch player of the year award for Darius Garland. Sure. we talked about this on the hate Chris pod last, last week. Number one, there’s not a lot of reps, not as many reps for Darius Garland in those moments as some of the other candidates for that award. And there’s not the same weight in Darius’s clutch moments as there are for some of the other, candidates for that award. And you’re thinking tonight like, okay, yes, Darius Garland was incredible in that fourth quarter.
But if the calves don’t pull this one out, then what? What like what happens? What is really at stake? And I’m not like, you have to deal with the circumstances you got here. The fourth quarter pressure with the arena full of 23,000 people watching you as the shot clock winds down. That’s a bigger stage than most people ever stepped foot on in their entire lives. Just saying, relatively speaking.
We still don’t, we still don’t quite know that’s, I think I agree with Ashley. Just don’t quite know what it looks like when this team takes a punch. And that was one of the biggest questions we had about them coming out of last postseason. so I think I heard a stat today that I think five of the last seven teams who have won 60 regular season games or have been on pace to win regular 60 regular season games, dating back to like the shortened COVID seasons.
Jimmy Watkins (37:21.109)
didn’t even win their conference and four of the five, four of the last five I believe, did not make it out of the second round. So I’m not trying to douse everyone’s... I think the Cavs should make the Eastern Conference Finals and I think they can give the Celtics a series. I think this weird Christophe’s porzingis illness looms large because I think we’re reaching the point, if we have not already reached the point, where the...
The Celtics need all their bodies to beat the Cavs in a seven game series, but I’m just telling you, it’s cool to have all these win streaks. It’s awesome to pull it out on all these clutch moments in the Vegas season, but I’m telling you, it’s a completely different sport. still, there are still some hurdles for this team to I know, like, I feel like sometimes Darius and Donovan are somewhat, somewhat performatively saying that we haven’t done anything yet because I think they know that
Like they haven’t, they actually haven’t made the finals run. Their goals are still in front of them. But I also think they feel like deep inside, like we’ve figured it out. We’ve figured it out and this is going to be the year that we break through. But I’m just telling you that’s, that is not a given at this point. We still need to see, we still need to see the actualization of everything that we think this team is capable of right now.
Ethan Sands (38:45.422)
Jimmy, I’m gonna take care of words from last year when we had this very similar conversation. I need to see it. I need to see it in front of my face. And Brian Winters took the ESPN the other day to basically say that the Cavs have not proven anything in the playoffs. And it was met with all this backlash. The Cavs themselves, Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Kenny Atkinson will tell you.
They have not proven themselves in the playoffs to have the confidence that they are going to do something. There is a different kind of belief that needs to be tapped into, and they can only do that by having success in the playoff. I asked Kenny Atkinson and Sam Merrill and Jared Allen today before the game in that shoot around, how important is it for you guys to have success?
in the playoffs because there’s all these comparisons between this Cavaliers team and other teams from the past. The Atlanta Hawks team, Kenny Axleson coach, right? Great regular season, flamed out in the playoffs, right? The Golden State Warriors, great historic regular season, got knocked out in the finals by the Cleveland Cavaliers, right? So there are these before seeing things where
The calves are in understanding exactly what Jimmy’s saying is they know that it is a more difficult task come playoff time for them to succeed and for them to prove themselves right. Because in Sam Merrill’s words, they don’t care about what anybody else thinks of them. They know who they are and they know what they need to do.
to get to where they want to be, which is winning a championship. Everybody in this organization thinks that they are capable of winning a championship. So yes, Jimmy, I agree with you. I think the Eastern Conference Finals is the bare minimum for this team. That’s where they want to be at. But I think, I don’t know. I think we’re getting to the point where I don’t know if this team, and we’ve talked about getting one step better every single way, because we went from the first round as a.
Ethan Sands (41:08.692)
Exit against the New York Knicks two years ago. We’ve heard, talked about it. People have gotten yelled at us for talking about that, even though it still holds weight over the Cavs this year. We’ve talked about the Boston Southeast last year and then the Eastern Conference semifinals and then get into the Eastern Conference finals will be the next step. But I feel like this Cavs organization, this Cavs team, this one in particular with how they reconstructed their roster.
how they’ve gotten all the pieces that they feel like they needed to be in the right place at the right time. And most importantly, as Jimmy said, knock on wood, they are healthy currently. This is a team that feels like they have to get to the championship this year to prove themselves and prove that they are capable of doing this.
Jimmy Watkins (41:57.631)
Can I just make one more to double down on the point about you need, seeing it, the actual, like this is not just, the Cavs are kind of a conceptual contender right now, and those are the dangerous kind. Last 10 years, 20 NBA finalists, one team of those 20 made the NBA finals without previously reaching the Eastern Conference Finals.
I just did that in my head real quick on the Wikipedia list. So that could be off by a team or two, but I’m pretty sure. One. And that’s what we’re dealing with with the Cavs here with mostly the same core. Again, I think this is a different makeup. think Kenny has changed so many things about them schematically. He has breathed new life into them. Evan Mobley is a different player. Darius Garland is a different player. Deandre Hunter adds a different element. I’m just saying.
The path that the calves are trying to travel this year does not frequently get traveled.
Ethan Sands (42:58.11)
Ashley, do you have any burning takes for your first time on the Wine and Gold Talk podcast before we get out of this after this not boring, but meaningless game outside of the central division for the Cleveland Cavaliers?
Ashley Bastock (43:11.365)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just I did think it was funny. You you mentioned it briefly, Ethan, along those lines, Jared Allen getting asked about winning the central division. And after the game, we promised this whole discussion like winning the division in baseball and football is such a big deal. And in the NBA, it’s so meaningless that it’s funny that you have a player start to try to answer the question and halfway through the answer have to be like
wait, what did we do? And he had to be reminded. But it’s funny because like it’s not a big deal, but this is the first time they’ve managed to do that since LeBron was here. It’s the first time a non-LeBron team has managed to do that, and I don’t even know the last time that happened. But it’s it’s just funny to me. This is not like big picture or anything. It truly is just funny to me that he had no idea what it meant. I quite honestly don’t really have an idea of why it’s significant other than, yeah.
There, the calves are good. Breaking news, the calves are good. There you have it.
Jimmy Watkins (44:15.509)
I’ve already found a second NBA finalist that made the finals without a conference finals appearance. I do. It’s still two out of 20. Two out of 20. It could be three out of 20 five minutes from now. But like, I think the point remains.
Ashley Bastock (44:19.8)
man, you gotta fact check yourself before you bring that up next time.
Ethan Sands (44:33.026)
Don’t trust Wikipedia kids. Do you do basketball reference? And I love saying this because Jimmy is like the basketball reference guru. Every time I come into the pregame.
Jimmy Watkins (44:43.382)
I think this is more don’t trust Jimmy after midnight. Because he’s tired. He’s tired.
Ethan Sands (44:48.206)
It’s 12.03 buddy. This is one of the earlier podcasts for us after games, but That’s fair. All right We’re gonna wrap up today’s podcast and I’m gonna leave you guys with this the Cleveland Cavaliers have clinched home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs after tonight’s win and the magic number for the number one seed in the Eastern Conference is 10 with that being said
Jimmy Watkins (44:54.77)
is set.
Ethan Sands (45:17.218)
That’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. And as we’ve mentioned recently, the Cavs are off until Friday. So if you guys have any thoughts, topics, ideas of what you want us to talk about on the next few podcasts, this is where you’re going to text us and where we can get back to you.
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