CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands is joined by Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins to discuss the Cavs' playoff expectations, and the challenges they face, particularly against the Boston Celtics.
Takeaways:
Cavs are on a 15-game win streak, aiming for a franchise record.
Playoff success is crucial for the Cavs this season.
Darius Garland’s ability to perform under pressure is questioned.
Cavs' depth may be less impactful in the playoffs.
The Celtics are seen as the main threat to the Cavs' playoff success.
Evan Mobley’s performance against Porzingis is critical.
Cavs need to prove they can beat Boston in the playoffs.
The standard for the Cavs has shifted to NBA Finals expectations.
Cavs' three-point shooting could be a variable in playoffs.
Darius Garland’s defensive responsibilities will increase in playoffs. DeAndre Hunter’s addition has significantly changed the Cavs' dynamics.
Darius Garland’s playoff performance is crucial for the Cavs' success.
Bench players must fulfill their roles effectively in the playoffs.
Ty Jerome’s past experiences may prepare him for postseason challenges.
Confidence against the Celtics is vital for the Cavs' playoff run.
The Pacers could pose a unique challenge for the Cavs in the playoffs.
Cavs need to leverage their depth to compete effectively in the playoffs.
Defensive matchups will be critical in the series against the Celtics.
The Cavs' ability to score consistently will determine their playoff success.
Playoff readiness and experience are key factors for the Cavs' performance.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And joining me for the second straight day in a row, I get Chris Fidor and Jimmy Watkins on the podcast for a not post-game reactions. Man, we gotta love to see it. But again, as usual, Chris Fidor is already in a different.
city. Chris, how was the flight getting into Memphis? You excited for this game against the Grizzlies? And obviously we also understand that the Donovan Mitchell of the Cleveland Cavaliers is out with the groin injury. I will get into asking you about that in a little bit, but for right now, how’s the trip? How you feeling? Cavs going for their 16th straight win. And obviously we also know that would break their franchise record win streak.
Chris (00:33.968)
you
Ethan Sands (01:01.94)
again this season.
Chris (01:04.772)
Did you guys know how close Arkansas is to Memphis, Tennessee?
Ethan Sands (01:09.452)
I did, I did know that.
Chris (01:10.86)
Okay. Apparently I wasn’t very good at geography when I was growing up. I was focused on other things other than geography because I got here and as I checked into my hotel, it’s very, very close to one of these bridges that leads to one of these parks, which leads to Arkansas. And I did a little Google map search because I was like, well, wait a minute, that looks like water. Wonder what body of water that is. Turns out it’s the Mississippi river.
So I started doing a little bit more Google mapping before dinner tonight. And I realized that it’s only about a 40 minute walk from my hotel into Arkansas across a bridge. So I am planning on doing that tomorrow after shoot around because I’ve never been to Arkansas. There is no NBA team in Arkansas. And this way I can say that I have visited Arkansas. What am I going to do when I get there?
I have absolutely no idea. Probably turn right back around and go back to Memphis, Tennessee. But at least I’ll be able to say that I walked over a bridge across the Mississippi river into Arkansas. And I don’t know, maybe I’ll catch an Uber from there or a Lyft from there. And I’ll have a meal somewhere in Arkansas. So I can say I had lunch in Arkansas. I never realized in all of my time coming to Memphis, and I’ve done it once a year.
for the last 11 years, except for maybe the COVID year. I never realized how close Arkansas was to Memphis. Otherwise I would have done this already. But the flight was good. I traveled through Atlanta. Hate that airport. No offense, Ethan. Just add it to the list of things about Atlanta that are bothersome to me when it comes to a travel situation. But I met some really cool people on the plane that we were talking basketball with, we were talking sports with.
And then I watched a TV show on my Delta flight. One of the shows that I haven’t picked up to this point yet, but I think I might. It’s called Tracker. It’s on CBS. I think it airs like Sundays. I don’t know. It was one of the ones that appealed to me of all the choices that Delta had for in-flight entertainment. So I went back and I watched the first ever episode of Tracker.
Chris (03:34.48)
It’s got Justin Hartley in it, I believe that’s what his name is. Pretty good show. So if you’re looking for something to binge watch on Paramount Plus or something like that, Tracker would be something that I’d be into. So maybe you’d be into it too.
Ethan Sands (03:50.816)
I can just picture Chris walking across this bridge, getting across the bridge into Arkansas, and stopping and putting both hands on his hips and going, heavy exhale. All right, back to Memphis. Time to go back.
Chris (03:56.528)
You
Chris (04:06.576)
Did I tell you a couple of years ago, a couple of years ago, when I walked the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco, it’s not the first time that I’ve walked the Golden Gate Bridge. but the most recent time that I walked the Golden Gate Bridge, I’m a little bit older these days. I’m not in the same shape as I was when I started doing this job. So I walked the Golden Gate Bridge and I was like,
Man, I’m pretty tired. So I sat down. I, I ordered a hot dog off a grill because like right as you cross the Golden Gate Bridge, there’s this little park there. and all of these other people just bring their, their tailgate grill and they sell these giant hot dogs and they sell these giant bottles of water. So I got across the Golden Gate Bridge and I two of these giant hot dogs, which are wrapped in bacon.
And I said to myself, there’s no way I want to do this walk again. So I ordered a lift to take me back to my hotel. So I only walked one way across the Golden Gate Bridge and I took an eight dollar lift back to my hotel because I was so full from these two hot dogs that I ate and I’m so old at this point in time.
that I didn’t feel like walking across the Golden Gate Bridge another 35 minutes. So that’s probably what I’m going to end up doing tomorrow. I’m going to walk across the bridge from Memphis, Tennessee into Arkansas, and I’m going to dial up a lift to take me back across the bridge. Knowing me, that’s probably what’s going
Ethan Sands (05:51.43)
Jimmy well based on the Conversations not about basketball. We’re gonna turn this conversation to basketball and we’re gonna start with you Obviously this cows team is really five and ten. They’re on a 15 game win streak for the second time this season They’re just the sixth team in NBA history to have a streak that long twice in a season But we wanted to get into what this cows team has harped on
since Kenny Atkinson arrived, since they lost last year to the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference Semi-finals basically. Playoff success. How important that is for this team, for this team in particular when it comes to the roster reconstruction that they did, when it comes to the contracts that they have going into the off season, when it comes to all these things, and especially with the regular season dominance that has willed them to have the confidence to go into the playoffs with a lot of heart.
But I want to know from all of us what could be the reason that the Cavs don’t have the same level of success that is expected of a team that is 55 and 10 potentially and on pace for 70 wins and how that could change the outcome of the outlook of this team for this season because we know that this Cavs team is going to be judged based on playoffs.
So Jimmy, not to put it this way, but what’s the biggest reason the Cavs don’t have success in the playoffs or don’t have the level of success that is expected of a team of this caliber?
Jimmy Watkins (07:36.372)
So basically we’re talking about why wouldn’t the Cavs make the conference finals, right? Cause that’s, that’s pretty much the baseline expectation here. Um, gotta tell you, the other Eastern conference teams are pretty unimpressive right now. So I will be very surprised if that isn’t the case, but I did do the thought exercise earlier today. I think the, biggest question still is this, this is kind of Cavs.
Another Cavs Thunder parallel is, we sure that the Cavs have a certified number two elite shot creator in a playoff setting? Darius, Gar, I think, and this is interesting for the Cavs because I think you can get there with Darius and Evan, like put their efforts together. But I have questions about each of them individually. And I do think Darius is the guy that they
If in a perfect world, they’d like to for Darius to just be this guy for them. But his efficiency has dropped across board in both his playoff appearances. Now, his longest playoff appearance was last year. He did have he was still dealing with the lingerie effects of the broken jaw. We know that. So that clouds this conversation a little bit. But I just think in the playoffs, teams walk into your sets more often that
Kenny’s flowy offensive body movement, ball movement won’t be as effective. Teams are going to switch more often. They are going to ask you to beat the man in front of you more often. And I think in a playoffs setting, when teams are going to put more size on Darius, I just am not sure that he is going like, I’m not even looking at, this is almost an abstract conversation because
I’m trying to pick out again, like, okay, Andrew Nampard of the Pacers, a guy, a guy that the Cavs could see in the second round. I wonder about Darius’s ability to beat that guy one-on-one when Donovan is on the bench or when the Pacers are denying Donovan the ball or they’re sending bot, every team’s goal is going to make somebody else other than Donovan Mitchell initiate offense.
Chris (09:38.736)
Hmm.
Chris (09:43.312)
Mmm.
Chris (10:02.629)
Right.
Jimmy Watkins (10:03.741)
for the Cavs and Darius is just not as not as proven in those settings and not as again in past seasons. I haven’t seen as much consistency out of him in those settings. I think he’s had two separate instances of back to back 20 point games in the playoffs again last year the injuries we know but that that would be my first day and then two smaller
quicker team wide points. Three point variance. The Cavs are among the league leaders in three point attempts and three point makes. It’s the most valuable shot in basketball. Three is more than two. We have advanced as a society to learn that. But the fact of the matter is, more threes you shoot, the more randomness you invite into the game. And I think the Cavs are
I mean, this is a good the fact that this is one of the problems I’m picking out. think is a good thing because it’s kind of like, well, they can miss their shots that they’ve been making. Right. But like that can happen. That can happen, particularly when you’re dealing with like Evan Mobley is having the best three point shooting season of his career. How likely is that to hold up in the playoffs, particularly in situations where like. What if he misses two in a row? How likely is he to shoot that third with the with the same confidence in a playoff setting? It’s just different, different weight to the ball.
Um, you know how much more How much leash does Sam Merrill have in the playoffs? This is question we’ve been having conversation. We’ve been having for a year now max truce has Been better than the new year, but still kind of a streaky shooter There’s diandre hunter is massive in this regard, but I just think that The cat I can see the cat’s two bad three point shooting games in a row and all of a sudden like well What’s going on here? What happens? and then this is kind of
Chris (11:40.688)
you
Jimmy Watkins (12:03.781)
Not really fair, but the fact of the matter is it’s NBA history is there’s not too many teams. And this is more of a fun. We had this conversation the other night with Ashley, the of the last 20 NBA finalists. I’ve now double checked the stat, by the way, because I got it wrong the first time and I caught myself in the moment when I was giving it last 20 NBA finalists, only two made that run without previously making the Eastern Conference finals.
Chris (12:10.158)
you
Jimmy Watkins (12:32.733)
So I’m just like the Cavs are really good. They should be a different playoff team this year than they have been in past years. Kenny’s pushed a lot of the right buttons. Darius Garland looks like a different player in the regular season. Mobley looks like a different player in the regular season right now. I anticipate that at least some of that will transfer over to the postseason. But I will say it again. The path the Cavs are trying to walk right now has not been walked very often throughout league history. So that’s a couple I have.
Chris (12:59.15)
Yeah. I want to go back to something that you said from the very beginning though. Is the baseline that we’re talking about Eastern conference finals? I don’t think it is anymore. I think the conversation has shifted. I think the standard is different. I think it’s NBA finals. I mean, if they go to the Eastern conference finals and they lose to Boston, what they really accomplish. And we’re talking about a team that could win 70 here guys.
Jimmy Watkins (13:13.299)
finals.
Chris (13:28.804)
That’s the kind of company that this group of Cavs could be in. We’re talking about one of the best regular season teams of all time. Multiple double digit win streaks, a point differential that’s off the charts. One of the best offenses in NBA history, depending on how it finishes. Like we’re talking 85, 86 Celtics, right? We’re talking about Jordan’s Bulls.
We’re talking about the dynastic Golden State Warriors that won 73. We’re talking about the best Cavs team ever potentially. Right? Like if that’s the kind of company that they are in, if the season finishes that way and that’s the company that they join, then they got to get to the NBA finals. Right? I mean, for you to consider it a success.
For you to look at this season as something other than just a disappointment? They gotta get to the finals, don’t they?
Ethan Sands (14:32.941)
I think it’s interesting because I agree with you and I think we’ve had this conversation a multitude of times and the answer has changed, right? And as we’ve talked about the season is fluid, but I think if it was a different team, if the Cavs were able to get past Boston in the Eastern Conference semi-finals to get to the Eastern Conference finals, I think you’d consider that a success, right? Because this entire season has been.
Chris (14:56.975)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (15:00.481)
Basically gearing up to play Boston again, basically setting themselves up to say okay Number one in the east number two in the east whatever you want to say. Let’s see how we stack up so I agree with you is if When if when they played the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference finals like that is the matchup that we’ve been waiting for all season That’s why every regular season has had a circle around it when it comes to the Cavs schedule for the Boston Celtics
Chris (15:03.738)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (15:30.219)
Right? Like I think that is the main point is that if it was a different team, if the Boston Celtics don’t get to the Eastern Conference Finals, one, the Cavs would be like, okay, well, this is a different matchup. Two, it’s like, well, we don’t think anybody else in the Eastern Conference was the real fight anyway, so we should get past them anyway. So I think I agree with you, Chris. I think the NBA Finals is now the
bare minimum for this team. And I think it’s funny that you talk about just how much history is being made because we talked about it. They’re on a 15 game win streak. There’s 17 games left in the season. If they win all 17, obviously a tall task, not saying that they’re going to, they would end with the season with 32 wins in a row, right? That would be the second longest streak in NBA history.
Chris (16:21.936)
Not happening. appreciation night is going to be Tristan Thompson night. Tristan Thompson throwback night. 30 to 35 minutes at Tristan Thompson. It’s not happening. But there’s one other thing. And you’re right when it comes to Boston.
Jimmy Watkins (16:25.639)
Well, that’s not happening, but yeah.
Ethan Sands (16:31.478)
Ha
Chris (16:45.486)
I’m not saying that this organization is only thinking about Boston, but, I can tell you in conversations that I have had recently with players, with coaches, front office members, with scouts, people inside this organization do not believe that there is any other Eastern conference team that can beat them four times at seven tries in a playoff environment. Boston’s the one, not that they’re scared of.
Not that they’re fearful of, but the one legitimate threat that they believe could potentially beat them in a series. I don’t get the sense that people inside this organization believe that Indiana can beat them in a series. I don’t get the sense that people inside this organization believe that Milwaukee can beat them in a series. So as simplistic as it may seem, and there’s no guarantee that it happens this way,
But it’s about Boston. It’s about beating Boston. It’s about proving to themselves that they can beat Boston. And if they beat Boston, there is a legitimate confidence that is going to come from that when they, if they go to the NBA finals and play whoever it is from the Western conference. Because Boston’s the thing, Boston’s the thing that looms over all of this.
It’s, the only hesitation that I have personally when it comes to the Cavs. Like I don’t think there’s a specific matchup that’s problematic for them. I don’t think that there is a glaring issue in terms of their roster construction. I don’t think there is a bad habit that is going to be their undoing in a playoff environment. It’s just, I have so much respect for the Celtics. And when a team wins a championship.
and brings back basically that same team. And they’ve gone through all of these steps together. They’ve gone through the adversity of the playoffs. They know what lineups to go to and when, right? They know what sets to go to and when. They’ve done it all before. They have faced the pressure of the playoffs together and they have gotten through it. They’ve been down in quarters before on the road in the playoffs.
Chris (19:10.732)
And they’ve gotten through it and they’ve won a championship. And there’s just no way to duplicate what Boston has on its side. That level of experience, that level of maturity, that level of championship know-how, the Cavs just don’t have it. So it’s not that Boston has been better than the Cavs this year. It’s just that they’ve done it to a higher level in the playoffs than the Cavs have had the opportunity to.
And because of that, it’s hard to say that you would give the Cavs, for me anyway, that I would give the Cavs the edge going into a seven game series against that team if that team is at full strength and has Kristaps Porzingis and he’s healthy and effective and all the different pieces that make Boston Boston. Like that’s the edge that Boston is always going to have until it doesn’t have that edge anymore.
And the Cavs get that same kind of experience and they get that same kind of championship.
Jimmy Watkins (20:15.359)
Yeah, when Boston’s healthy, they’re pretty close to a perfect modern basketball team. Five dudes who can pass, dribble, shoot and defend at a high level. No weakness on either side of the court. That’s tough. when we go, mean, we’re talking offense that extends to the bench too. mean, Sam Howser, Payton Pritchard, Al Al Horford is playing his tail off right now. know LeBron is beating Father Time and in his own fight right now, Al Horford.
Chris (20:35.248)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (20:44.691)
Al Horford has given him a run for his money as well. He’s been incredible. His recent stretch since Porzingis has been hurt. I do think that the Cavs, we were talking about how the Cavs haven’t really eaten a big punch this year and we still, I think that’s a question, how they handle a big momentum swing in a playoff series. If you could ask that similar question about Boston, given how last year’s playoff run went, they didn’t really face a ton of resistance. Now, they also didn’t have Porzingis for most of that playoff run.
And either him or Derek White are the third best player on the team. So that’s part of it, too. And so you’re if we’re talking just about Boston, various Garland’s career numbers against Boston, 38.9 % from the field. I know there’s that encapsulates a couple of different versions of this Boston team. But the consistent thing that they’ve always had is big bodies to throw at him, whether it was Marcus Smart or Derek White or now Drew Holiday.
They’ve always had that. That’s his second worst field goal percentage against any team in his career. He’s randomly awful against the Sacramento Kings. I don’t know what that’s about, but that’s a thing. And then Evan Mobley in three games that the Cavs have played against Boston since they’ve had Porzingis is averaging fewer than seven points per game. Nine and 35 shooting, seven rebounds, 10 assists, eight turnovers, very small sample size, very small sample size.
Chris (21:52.335)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (22:11.525)
And some of that is from last year when when Evan was not this guy yet, but he I mean, that game from a couple of months ago was not great when when they played at home and Boston controlled most of that game, the Cavs made it close and they had to come back late, but Boston controlled most of that game. So, yeah, that’s that’s where I’m really looking at. Don Mitchell is like the selfie killer, right? He’s he just passed MJ for most.
career points for game against the Celtics. That’s very impressive. He needs some dudes to go to war with. Darius Garland has looked like that dude for a lot of this year, but he has not really looked like that against the Boston Celtics for most of his career. Evan Mobley has been a different guy this season. He’s taken, I mean, we’ve been singing his praises all year and rightfully so. He’s taken unprecedented steps forward on off. mean, the bound of, I’ve said this before, but.
I really didn’t think it was possible for Evan Mobley to show all this progress in one regular season and he has. It’s very important, very impressive. He deserves all of that credit. That being said, you can’t let Christoph Sporzingis take you out of the game, essentially on offense, the way that he has in some, I don’t have the exact matchup data, but it’s just when Christoph Sporzingis is playing, Evan Mobley is not the same dude. This is again, small sample size, small sample size. I’m just telling you. I also would say,
Another small team wide thing that one of the Cavs greatest strengths this season has been depth and depth advantages are diminished a little bit in the playoffs because teams lean harder on their best players. And it’s still a great thing to have all this optionality, right? It’s not about like, I don’t know that your bench is going to carry you to victories in the playoffs the way that this Cavs team has in the regular season. They play, I think they play their bench third most in the NBA. That’s going to change a little bit. They’re probably still going to play their bench.
Chris (23:44.272)
Little bit.
Jimmy Watkins (24:04.019)
more than other teams relatively speaking in the playoffs but I’m telling you they’re not going to be playing that they’re playing like 96 minutes per game or something right now that’s going down that’s going down and it should by the way and it should so I think that’s like the sub there the calves are deeper than the Celtics I just don’t care about that honestly in the semi-game series
Chris (24:11.147)
Yeah.
Chris (24:21.186)
Right. There’s a Darius variable too, that I don’t think we can overlook when it comes to a playoff environment either. You know, if you go back to when the Cavs and the Warriors played against each other every single NBA finals, the Cavs offensive strategy was basically go at Steph. Hunt Steph relentlessly, make him work on the defensive end of the floor, tire him out, wear him down, and maybe get him in foul trouble.
Because if the Warriors were going to be a switch heavy defense, you knew that there was going to be a switch and you knew that there was going to be an advantage that you had. And the best way to deal with the Golden State Warriors is with Steph off the floor in foul trouble. I wonder about Darius and I wonder about foul trouble in the playoffs because the Cavs want to switch. They want to switch defensively. Kenny Atkinson believes in switching defensively.
He knows that it is a very, very important tactic, especially in the playoffs. It’s part of the reason why he’s implemented it the way that he has throughout the course of this season. So he’s going to ask Darius to switch. He’s going to ask all these guys to switch. And that’s, that’s going to put Darius in disadvantageous positions. how does he handle it? Can he stay out of foul trouble?
Can he keep from wearing down as the game goes on? What are his legs going to be like in the fourth quarter when his minutes increase and his responsibility on offense increases and his responsibility on defense increases? Because when you’re playing against the Cavs, like look at the rest of this lineup. You you could have De’Andre Hunter in the core four, basically.
Right. And the reason why the Cavs kept going at Steph during those finals years is because you’re not going to go at Draymond. You’re not going to go at Clay. You’re not going to go at KD. You’re not going to go at Iggy. Like you took the path of least resistance. You took what you thought was the weakest link based on what else was there. And this doesn’t mean that Darius is a bad defender. And it doesn’t mean that Darius has been a bad defender this year.
Chris (26:32.388)
But when you’re playing against the Cavs in a seven game series and you’re trying to find matchups that are favorable for you, it’s not Evan Mobley, unless you’re pulling him out to the perimeter and you feel like you have a quickness advantage. It’s not Jared Allen, unless you’re pulling him out to the perimeter and feel like you have a quickness advantage. It’s certainly not Deandre Hunter. And it’s not down to the middle because he is strong, he is pesky, he’s got long arms, you can’t really overpower him.
He’s not the defensive turnstile that he was a couple of years ago toward the end of his time in Utah where Dallas just relentlessly hunted him. So the Cavs internally are preparing for these teams to hunt Darius. Kenny Atkinson has said it multiple times. They’re going to hunt Darius. He knows, he knows what playoff basketball is going to be like. So can Darius stay out of foul trouble when he’s in those matchups against Jaylen Brown or Jason Tatum, or he’s in those matchups against
Pascal Siakam, if you play against the Indiana Pacers or something after a switch. Can he stay out of foul trouble number one and stay on the court and be as effective that way? But number two, can he physically hold up where he isn’t worn down by the end of these games and he has enough in the tank to be Mr. Fourth quarter Darius Garland or Mr. Offensive Engine.
Darius Garland, it’s just the responsibility that Steph had defensively for the Warriors for those four years. It was a lot. And that same responsibility defensively is going to rest on Darius, not because he’s the best defender that the Cavs have, but he’s the one that the opponents are going to go at.
Ethan Sands (28:19.713)
And Chris, this is a good.
Jimmy Watkins (28:19.955)
Can I say one more thing on that point? We were talking about this a couple of weeks ago when Kenny was taking exception to the idea that the Cavs had two small guards because Donovan has the longer wingspan and we talked about Donovan too. They’re going go after Donovan too just to make him work, just to try to put miles on him. And I’m interested in that conversation as it pertains to Darius because when we were having that conversation, Chris mentioned that the Cavs feel okay about there being one huntable player on the court.
Chris (28:37.016)
Of course. Yeah.
Chris (28:48.27)
Yes, that’s correct.
Jimmy Watkins (28:49.083)
in the playoffs. So here’s my thing about that. You have Darius, again, Donovan’s going to be playing 40 plus minutes in the playoffs. So this won’t be happening very often where Darius is the lone creator out there. But when Donovan’s not on the court and Darius is being hunted like this and the Cavs are putting the ball in his hands a lot and the Celtics are asking him to beat switches often against really good defensive players, it really seems like he could use some help out there.
Well, this seems like you could use a secondary creator. Ty Jerome would be nice, but now this is of your, it’s, this is your, kind of, uh, Sophie’s choice, right? Do I give Darius Ty Jerome help on offense for secondary creation? But when I do that, now what the stuff is, you got to Ty Jerome too. Cause there’s only one, the idea of there being one huntable player out there is that the cats can make it pretty hard.
to hunt Darius. They can hide him on certain guys. They can try to scram switch. They can try to, you can try to pre-switch some of this stuff so that even if, if the stealth is call up, Darius is guy to screen for the ball handler. He can get out of there and someone else can come in there and say, nope, sorry, I’m guarding you now. the, what the, that’s Dean Wade, Jared Allen, Evan Moly, whoever they can, they can get out of that early. But if there’s two guys, he goes out. If there’s two guys, that’s tougher.
Chris (30:10.724)
They could go zone.
Jimmy Watkins (30:16.199)
That’s tougher and that’s an interesting balance to me. Also, I’m also interested in the Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley pairing that Kenny has loved so much all year. Maybe that’s a situation where you switch it up a little bit there because Evan can relieve pressure from Darius as an offensive creator while also being an elite defensive player at the other end. think that’s something to watch as we get into late May.
Ethan Sands (30:45.207)
So a couple of things, because I think the Darius Garland point is a good one. It also brings up the point of what Kenny Atkinson has kind of tried to compare with Darius all season. It’s the Stephen Curry defensive change that happened, him putting on weight, him being able to hold his own defensively and how that led to the Warriors being able to win championships. And we know because Steph was
able to switch. It wasn’t like he wasn’t getting hunted anymore. It was just he wasn’t as much of a liability on that end of the floor. And also we talk about the cardio aspect of it. He could take those blows and still be able to move around on the offense event and still have the same level of productivity on the offense event, which we know is so deadly for their offense. And I think we are waiting to see whether or not Darius can do one of two things or both, which is
hold up defensively or not hold up defensively, but take the blows and still be able to do what he’s been doing all season on the offensive end. And I think there’s two ways that it could go. It’s Darius gets used to being hounded. Cause as we’ve said, like it’s not just the Boston Celtics that are going to do this. It’s going to be the playoff series leading up to the Eastern conference finals that Darius is going to get chances to see how teams are going to do this.
And I think there’s an opportunity for Darius and it’s happened during the regular season too, but not to the playoff level intensity of it. I think Darius could get used to it or his body could simply be worn down because of going through this for two, three series before they get to the Celtics at all. And I think that’s something that we have to monitor because we’ve already seen the hip injury.
how he’s dealt with going up against Boston in the regular season. All these things have to be taken into account because we talk about the Knicks and bruises and wear and tear on these guys through an 82 game season, but everything ramps up in the playoffs. Everything changes to a different level. And we’ve talked about that and Kenny has harped on that a lot. But I think it’s interesting that the comparison that has been made all season between Darius and Steph, but
Ethan Sands (33:08.617)
in a different light than a lot of people may have thought the defensive end is more important than what happens offensively. And I wanted to just put some stats behind what Jimmy was saying when it comes to the Porzingis and Evan Mobley battle, because for this regular season, at least when they played, they’ve kind of evened each other out. They’ve kind of negated the offensive prowess that both of them have had. When
Kristofs Brazinius has been guarded by Evan Mobley in two games and around six minutes of play. He’s held him to one of six from the field for 16.7 % and O of four from deep. He’s committed two fouls and forced a turnover. And the team points was just 16 during those six minutes when Evan Mobley was guarded by Kristofs Brazinius.
for two games for around eight minutes. Chris Stobbs held Evan Mobley to one of, or three of 12 from the field, 25 % and Owa four from deep. He fouled him once, he had a block and he forced four turnovers, which I think is the biggest.
Jimmy Watkins (34:24.335)
So the thing about this is the Celtics don’t need Chris stops forcing us on offense the way the Cavs need Evan Mobley on offense Chris stops Chris stops is essentially a luxury in every let me just this is a silly how good this basketball team has been struck constructed Chris stops is really useful by the way Chris stops can Can be very effective on offense just by standing there because the Cavs are gonna have to account for him on the three point three point line and that’s
Chris (34:29.914)
Holzard! Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (34:52.155)
an interesting conversation for Kenny Akers. Jared Allen put on him, Evan Moley put on him, and then basically that guy, if you’re only leaving one big out there, when Christoph Prozinkis is out there, that one big has to account for Christoph because he’s a lethal three-point shooter. Exactly. Exactly. So you’re asking your big man to cover a lot of ground, at least cover a lot of ground, if not just taking him away from the rim in general.
Chris (35:07.588)
And he’s out at the three point line as opposed to around the ring or in the paint.
Jimmy Watkins (35:21.829)
That’s an interesting strategic choice for the Cavs. Can our two big lineups hold up well enough offensively for us to do that against Boston? Or do we have to go to one big lineup and Chris stops by or Al Horford? I think the Cavs are a little bit more willing to let Al Horford shoot, but Al Horford is the same way he can shoot out there too. And now your rims wide open and the cat in the Celtics, as we have mentioned, have a bunch of dudes who can get in the paint. That’s that’s the difference. That’s the difference.
Chris (35:46.672)
That’s the point that I was going to make. If Evan Mobley and Kristaps Porzingis play to a draw or close to even, it’s advantage Boston. The Cavs need Evan Mobley more than the Celtics need Kristaps Porzingis on offense. And that would be a really, really difficult thing for the Cavs to potentially overcome if Evan can’t be comfortable against Kristaps, if he can’t be productive, if he can’t be
Jimmy Watkins (35:57.468)
Yes.
Chris (36:14.832)
consistent if he can’t be the same kind of offensive weapon that he has been throughout the course of this season. Because Evan’s versatility, Evan’s evolution on the offensive end, it’s allowed the Cavs to vary their approach offensively. It’s allowed them to diversify their attack. They can just do different things on the offensive end of the floor.
the inverted pick and roll stuff, right? The DHO stuff with him and Max Struz, Evan out to the three point line, Evan rebound and run and push and transition, and all these different things. It just gives them something else that they can consistently go to other than Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, pick and roll, other than continuous movement and random cuts on the offensive end of the floor. And if you take that variable away from the Cavs offensively,
because Kristaps Porzingis is neutralizing Evan Mobley, then, you know, offense becomes a little bit more difficult and it becomes a little bit more different of a look for the Cavs at that end of the floor. So, it’s definitely something that I’m paying attention to going into these playoffs. And it’s something that I don’t think you can dismiss wholeheartedly based on the way that things have gone.
in the past and including this year when you talk about Evan Mobley and Kristaps Porzingis. Like there are very few guys in the NBA that I think can bother Evan Mobley throughout the course of a throughout the course of a playoff series. I think Porzingis is one of the kinds of guys that could bother Evan.
Jimmy Watkins (37:58.068)
Now here’s the thing, Christoph Porzingis right now has a weird illness, mystery illness, we were just talking about that before we recorded.
Chris (38:04.034)
mystery illness. I think it’s the same one that I’ve had for the last month, by the way, that they can’t diagnose. I’ve been to three different doctors and they can’t figure out what is actually wrong with me. So it’s probably the same thing that Kristaps Porzingis has and it sucks.
Jimmy Watkins (38:14.983)
Yeah.
And he’s and he’s on the bench. So I guess it’s not communicable. Yeah, that is not he’s on the bench. But the thing about Christoph Przingis, he misses basketball games. That’s that is a hallmark of his career, hallmark of his career. And whenever he comes back from this, there will be a reacclimation period. There will be a re regaining your rhythm process. And there is no guarantee that Christoph Przingis stays healthy.
Chris (38:22.287)
Not contagious.
Chris (38:29.508)
Yes. All the time.
Jimmy Watkins (38:46.675)
for an entire playoff run after that. saw it last year. I do. I said this the other day. I do think we are at the point where the Celtics can’t just shrug off an injury against the Cavs anymore, particularly one as important as Kristof. We saw how the Celtics looked trying to defend Evan Mobley as the lone big on the court without Horford and Luke coordinate last postseason. And Mobley had a coming out party in that series. Right. So
That’s that’s something to watch. also just want to say about the various defensive comparisons. That’s like one of the greatest conditioned athletes ever. As particularly basketball players, because not only was he being hunted and counted on as an initiator and all those playoff runs, he’s also no one moves without the ball more often and more continuously and stuff. So like it’s it’s it’s fine.
Chris (39:23.44)
Yeah, I know.
Jimmy Watkins (39:43.878)
And it’s a, it’s a fine goal for Kenny Atkinson to say, Hey, Darius, can you hold up in the playoff hunt game as well as Steph? That’s fine. That’s fine goal to strive for, but to not let it bleed over in other areas when Darius is just, this is again, I, Steph is one of the greatest condition athletes in the sport has ever seen. So it’s not a slight to Darius when I say he’s not.
in that same kind of physical condition. He’s also not quite as big as Steph. So that’s just a tricky, it’s a trickier thing than it sounds for Kenny to say, just be Steph on defense, which in and of itself is an attainable goal, but the rest of it is harder.
Chris (40:29.636)
here’s something that minimizes all of this that we’ve been talking about here. It’s the addition of Deandre Hunter. That has changed the equation completely for the Cavs, especially in a matchup against Boston. Because look, he has been a number two option in his career. So if the Cavs need more offensively from him, or they need somebody to step up and carry more of a burden offensively, or provide more of a scoring punch because
You know, Evan is dealing with Kristaps Porzingis because Darius is in foul trouble and he’s working so hard on the defensive end of the floor. DeAndre Hunter is somebody who can pass dribble shoot. DeAndre Hunter is somebody who can play on the ball, off the ball. You can put them in the post, you can put them at the elbow extended. If they go to a zone, you can put them in the weak point of the zone. the Cavs before they got DeAndre Hunter were staring at a situation where it was like,
How are we going to consistently fill the wing minutes? All right, we can piece something together, right? We can do a little bit of Dean Wade, we can do a little bit of Isaac Kukoro, we could do a little bit of Karis LaVert as erratic and inconsistent as he is. Now you just say, well, pfft, we don’t need that much from Isaac Kukoro. He can just be like a defensive specialist, a change the game type of guy off the bench.
We don’t have to rely on Dean Wade the same kind. Dean Wade was going to be needed in a series against the Celtics. Stylistically, he’s the kind of player that you have to have in order to compete with the Celtics. Now you don’t need Dean Wade as much because you have Deandre Hunter, who is a significantly better version of that player. And he’s a guy who matches up well.
with the Celtics and theoretically you could just give all 40 minutes if you had to. I know there are 48 but you just find the other eight with whatever you want to do with them. But you could do 36 to 40 all to Deandre Hunter and it minimizes how much you rely on Isaac Okoro, Dean Wade, Max Struz, some of those other guys. It doesn’t mean that you take them out of the rotation completely. It’s just what you ask of them is not too much anymore.
Chris (42:52.42)
So De’Andre has changed that game. if Darius is having a tough night offensively, then you feel like you give more responsibility to De’Andre. If you don’t feel like you’re getting the defense that you need from Max Struce or something like that, then you just say De’Andre, you take those matchups. So much of how we view the Cavs personally for me has changed.
after the addition of Deandre at both ends of the floor, especially when it comes to a matchup against the Celtics. And, you I don’t cover the Celtics. I’m not in their locker room. I don’t talk to people inside their organization on a daily basis. But I got to believe the minute that the Cavs traded for Deandre Hunter, it was like, damn, really? We got to deal with that guy now? Because it’s hard to sit here and say that the Cavs
needed something at the trade deadline given how much of a role they were on and what they had already accomplished to that point but it was clear as the season went on that they needed somebody like DeAndre Hunter and for a lot of the reasons that we have talked about on this podcast because you have a better idea in a playoff environment of what you’re going to get from DeAndre Hunter than you do with Darius Garland or Evan Mobley because he has shown it to a different level.
to this point in his career.
Ethan Sands (44:21.237)
And I think that’s a great point.
Jimmy Watkins (44:21.491)
So the question becomes, how good is Deandre Hunter really? Like right now, we know he’s good. We know he’s a really good fit with the Cavs. We know he’s having one of the best years of his career. We know he can create some. He can be an initiator. He’s a really good shooter. But I think there’s a difference between... Deandre... I was interested by the last thing you said there, Chris. And I think that probably says more... The idea that Deandre Hunter is more reliable in the playoff series.
Price has then Garland and Mobley. Price has more about Mobley and Garland’s playoff track record to this point than does about Deandre Hunter’s. He’s never been on the first round and it’s not really his fault necessarily. He’s not, he’s not the guy that was dictating success or failure for the Atlanta Hawks. That’s kind of my point. He could be a really important bellwether in the Celtic series. And it’s like, okay, I think he’s capable of handling more workload, but like the, the,
the difference between being a luxury as he kinda is right now in a lot of these regular season games and being, hey, we need you against one of the best defenses in the world. That’s a completely different equation and I’m with you. I like the idea, like I was talking about earlier, like do the Cavs need to switch up their Darius, Jarrett, Donovan, Evan pairing? Well, if you’re playing Deandre with Darius and he’s...
doing the secondary creation stuff? Not necessarily. If he’s doing it well enough, then you can lead on Deandre Hunter in those minutes. I just don’t know that I know he’s never been on that kind of stage before. And I don’t know that he’s ever been this important of a player in the league before. this, mean, I like what I’m seeing from him, but this is going to be a really interesting test run. Like the Deandre Hunter trade has worked really well so far.
But the ultimate payoff will be determined by what he does during two weeks in a series against Boston, in my opinion.
Ethan Sands (46:27.285)
You know who else doesn’t have a whole lot of playoff experience or at all? His best friend, Ty Jerome, who has been one of the most important players off the bench for the Gleewood Cavaliers. Right. And I know Jimmy said earlier something to the effect of it’s more important how the starting five play than the bench players in this kind of series. And I’m not going to disagree with that, but I will say that
Chris (46:33.976)
Yeah.
Chris (46:52.912)
Mm.
Ethan Sands (46:57.525)
I’m looking at Isaac Acora. I’m looking at Max Struce. I’m looking at Dean Wade. And I’m saying, you have to play your role to weigh an absolute T. If your role is play defense and hit two, three, three pointers, you cannot air ball a three pointer. You cannot hit off the side of the backboard. You can’t do these things that we’ve seen at times. Like, and I understand that
Chris (47:15.812)
Mm-mm.
Ethan Sands (47:26.475)
there are roles for these guys on the defensive end. There’s an entire other side of the ball that they still have to play. Like say Darius and Evan are guys that aren’t having the best nights, aren’t having their best games, aren’t having their best series against the Boston Celtics. And the Cavs say, okay, we’re gonna do what we’ve been doing all season, empowering our bench and putting guys in the situation where we feel like we put them in all season to be ready for these kinds of moments.
And then Isaac Okoro shoots how he has over the last 10 games since returning from his injury. 31 % from three, right? Or Dean Wade has an off night from three point range and what he’s been doing this season, which has been a down year for him from three point range. Or Max Struce doesn’t have the shot that we’ve seen for a majority of the season. What we’ve seen from him. And obviously the other portion of this is, is...
the experience portion of it. Ty Jerome, you’re 50-40-90, but what are you gonna do in the playoff for the first time? Is this gonna be a shock to you? We know we love to call him the chill guy Ty, Milk, whatever you, we don’t wanna see you spoil. Like.
Chris (48:38.544)
I’m not worried about Ty. I’m not. Like I put stock into what a guy does in big moments throughout the course of his career. And I know he hasn’t had the opportunity in the NBA, but I put stock on what he did in the NCAA tournament, leading Virginia to a national championship. There are just certain guys that you feel like the moment’s not going to be too big.
that he’s not going to be faced by whatever it is. And I think Ty is one of those kinds of guys. I think he’s the overachiever. I think he’s the guy who people look at him and say, I don’t get it. I don’t get it from an athleticism standpoint. I don’t get it from a skill standpoint, but he just continues to find a way. Found a way in high school, found a way in college, and here he is in the conversation for six man of the year. So it may be naive of me.
But what he did in the NCAA tournament, like I think that’s something that points to him having a level of readiness for what’s coming. And I just never see Ty as somebody because of his demeanor, because of his attitude and because of his style. I just never see Ty as somebody who’s going to get rattled by anything. So I know what you’re saying, Ethan, like that experience, he does not have it, but I am not worried about him.
I believe that he is built for postseason basketball.
Jimmy Watkins (50:10.429)
He also, he’s gonna have two rounds to build confidence. As are a lot of these guys, before they get to Boston. I think that’s important. That’s important too. Whatever kinks you need to work...
Chris (50:20.034)
One of those is probably going to be a really non-competitive first round too.
Jimmy Watkins (50:23.699)
That’s right. Which, which again, so if I’m Kenny in that first round, I think I can play in strength in numbers game and get and try it in kind of keep my lie alive, keep my live out playing tennis guys in the the playoffs alive because you’re probably smoking that whoever you get out of the play and probably smoke that team. I’m just going to sweep them. You’re going to be smoking them in some of those games. So that’s a good confidence building opportunity. And it should be mentioned, Ty Jerome wasn’t massive part of the comeback.
Chris (50:43.888)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (50:52.275)
against Boston during the most recent regular season, regular season, win against the Celtics. Then the Celtics, there’s the whole, well, the Celtics still went up 25 to 30. That’s true. And that’s not great, but the Celtics are like the NBA is like ADHD team. We’re like when they are locked in and doing what they’re supposed to be doing. Like I said, they are a damn near perfect modern basketball team.
Chris (50:55.984)
Yeah
Chris (51:05.028)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (51:21.395)
But then it’s like they need a fidget spinner or something because they’ll just get distracted for 10 minutes or something. And those just start. Let’s see how much ice a ball we can play. Let’s see how many cool three point step back three pointers we can make. Payton Richards over here and step back for 27 feet. You know, you’re like the seven. You’re like the sixth best player on the team, Payton. Right. Like I get it. You are one of the best players in the league. Like you’re sharing the court with some dudes who might be able to get a better shot of them that.
Chris (51:26.702)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (51:50.812)
And that it’s just weird. I agree. Exactly. Exactly. And I don’t necessarily know that Boston’s going to like lock in all the way in the play, like, cause they’re going to have, they’re going to smack whoever they play in the first round. The Knicks have not shown Mitchell Robinson back now. So we’ll see the Knicks have not shown any propensity to be ready for that kind of.
Chris (51:51.344)
Must be nice to be bored with your own greatness.
Jimmy Watkins (52:19.965)
fight in the second round, assuming that the seeds hold what they are, which they are likely to do. So the Celtics may walk in in this conference finals feeling pretty good about themselves. And so that’s another opportunity. Remember the Cavs beat Boston pretty good in game one of the conference semis last year. That’s an opportunity I could see. Sorry, game two, game two, Boston got fat, got fat off their game one. Like we got this.
Chris (52:37.241)
Mm.
Chris (52:41.626)
Team two.
Chris (52:48.42)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (52:49.469)
I could see another opportunity like that. I could see it.
Ethan Sands (52:54.155)
I definitely think when you talk about confidence building and this is kind of coming full circle as we get to the end of this podcast is like, there is no bigger confidence builder for this Cavaliers team than success against the Boston Celtics. And I know people are gonna be like, well, you talked about the Knicks for the last, I don’t know how long. That’s not the same Knicks team. This isn’t the same Cavs team as two years ago.
Chris (53:10.98)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (53:14.776)
Ha ha ha.
Yes. That’s right. The status quo has changed.
Ethan Sands (53:22.477)
100%. And my biggest thing when it comes to like playing both sides of the ball and saying Christophe’s prosengus is healthy and obviously he’s not going to play all 48 minutes, especially as if he’s coming off an illness and who knows how long this is going to take him to recover from all these different things play factors into this conversation. But whoever the Cavs have being guarded by Al Horford,
needs to do something on the offensive end, right? Because we’ve seen it at length, Isaac Okoro standing in the corner, being guarded by Al Horford, not being able to do much, Dean Wade, kind of the same situation. Again, we know how great these guys are on defense. It is uncanny how important those guys are gonna be on the defensive end getting to Boston, right?
Jaylen Brunson being guarded by Isaac Acuro, Damien Lillard being guarded, like whatever scenario you want to put in front of you, right? But when they get to Boston, whether or not they have Kristaps Brazinius, when Al Horford is on the floor, whoever Joe Masula says, I’ll go guard them, is going to tell me who they think is the weak link. And we already know as a collective, who is prime candidates for that to be.
And if they cannot rise to the occasion, especially in cases where if Evan Mobley and Darius Garland are not able to play to this caliber against the Boston Celtics, it is going to be a long series. But we have to figure out how it’s going to get there because
Chris (55:11.232)
random thought and I’m just bringing this up. I’m not giving my answer on this. I’m just curious what the view of Indiana is here. Because look, they might end up as the four seed. They went to the conference finals last year. They’re better than 500 against teams with a record above 500. Last year they did the whole play-in tournament thing where they went on that run. So it’s like
A lot of their guys have big game experience and they did, as I said, get to the conference finals last year. So any thought about Indiana being a quote unquote threat.
Ethan Sands (55:57.036)
No.
Chris (56:00.281)
Why, why not?
Ethan Sands (56:02.525)
I mean, we’ve talked about this in the past, Chris. I am not a Tyrese Halliburton believer. I know he just hit the shot over Giannis, which helped them win the game a four point play. Great shot. Was one of the ugliest shots I’ve ever seen. But like, I am not a believer that Tyrese Halliburton, Pascal Siakam, and Miles Turner are a big three that poses a threat to the offensive juggernaut that is the Cleveland Cavaliers. I don’t think that like
We talk about pace, we talk about shooting. I think they can keep up pace wise. I do not know if they’re going to be able to keep up shooting wise. Like the Boston Celtics are a team that put up 53 the other night against OKC, right? I don’t think the Pacers are going to be able to do the same thing, especially when like Kenny Atkinson has so much knowledge of the Pacers through the regular season, what worked, what didn’t work. And I’m not going to say that it’s going to be like
Chris (56:43.556)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (56:59.071)
a sweep or a five game series. I think it could go six games, but I think in that kind of series, if it goes six games, the Cavs have it. And I’m not going to discredit Rick Carlisle because he is one of my favorite coaches in the league. But I, right. I’m not, I’m just.
Chris (57:13.036)
he’s one of the best. Like that dude in the 7 game series is a problem. He is a great tactician.
Ethan Sands (57:20.171)
I’m just not a Tyrese Halliburton believer. I’m not. That’s just my opinion. And as we’ve said, as we all said on yesterday’s podcast, sometimes you’re to have opinions that people don’t like. That’s just mine. I’m not a Tyrese Halliburton believer.
Chris (57:34.0)
He averaged 20 and nine and led his team to the conference finals last year while shooting 50 % from the field and about 40 % from three point range during their playoff run.
Ethan Sands (57:47.337)
Not a believer.
Jimmy Watkins (57:47.38)
So, I think the Pacers are a top 10 offense and in their best moments this year, they’ve been a top 10 defense. That’s typically your if you can do if you can end up in both spots. think there’s only five teams in the league right now that that fit that criteria. Top 10 office, top 10 defense. Pacers aren’t one of them. They’re like middling middle of the pack defense because they started the season really poorly. I see I see what you’re getting at, Chris.
Chris (58:11.753)
huh. Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (58:17.747)
I think this is like-
Chris (58:18.126)
Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, before the aggregators get all over this one, I’m not getting at anything, I am asking a question because it’s something that I’ve contemplated in my own head recently.
Jimmy Watkins (58:20.499)
I’m not... Alright.
Jimmy Watkins (58:27.557)
Okay, I see why you’re asking the question. How about that? How about that? Is the top 10 offense, top 10 offense has flirted with top 10 defense at time. They have a guy in Andrew Nemhard who you can reliably put on Donovan and or Darius and make them work. It’d be nice if they had two Andrew Nemhards, but they only have one. They only have one. mean, you know, Ben Shepard.
Chris (58:30.992)
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Alright.
Chris (58:48.111)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (58:55.335)
Ben Shepard’s not a bad defender, but he’s not Andrew Nephard.
Chris (58:59.376)
I think Niece has the skill set to be. I don’t know if the numbers say that he is though.
Jimmy Watkins (59:02.067)
That’s fair, Neesmith. Top 10 three-point shooting team. This is where the three-point variance conversation would come in, I think, because the Pacers are going to try and space you out and play up and down, and the Cavs are also trying to do that. And some weird stuff can happen. Some weird stuff can happen when both teams are trying to throw up 43s a night. So I would say, here’s a take.
Cause here’s what we, feel like we’re all dancing around nothing right now. I’ll give you a take. I think the general consensus would be that the calves would be more afraid to see Janice and Dane in the second round that you don’t, because Janice would be the best player in the series. And people say that the best player in the series usually wins the series. I would tell you I’d be a little bit more afraid of Rick Carlisle getting in the lab and three point variants getting a little wonky.
And the Pacers having enough manpower with their backcourt defense to give Donovan and Darius problems. And also Miles Turner, as a stretch big, can put the Cavs in similar predicaments with their rim protection that we were talking about with Boston earlier. I think that the Pacers might be, this is like a classic NBA hipster take, the Pacers might be a a sneaky, more dangerous team than the Bucks against the Cavs in the playoffs.
Chris (01:00:28.79)
One of the reasons why I started thinking about this is because I was recently in Milwaukee and I was talking to a couple of people that cover the Milwaukee Bucks and they said, I don’t know if they can beat the Pacers. This iteration of the Bucks, I don’t know if they can beat the Pacers. And I was like, what are you talking about? Yannis and Dane together in a playoff series? And he said, I’m just telling you, like it’s a tough matchup stylistically for the Bucks against the Pacers.
So it just made me start thinking, projecting forward of, okay, then what about the Cavs in the second round? How would they match up with Indiana? Because so much of my thought has gone to, well, Cavs against Bucks dealing with Giannis and Dame and how do they match up and looking at some of their regular season matchups and things like that. And it just made me start thinking about, well, what if it’s Indiana instead of Milwaukee? Like, what does that look like from a Cavs standpoint? And I think.
Look, the Cavs are the better team. The Cavs have proven that throughout the course of this season. But I think there are some interesting aspects of Indiana that make me actually have to think about it a little bit more. And part of it is their conference finals run. Part of it is Rick Carlisle. I do think they’re deep. I think they have the kind of style, like there are prerequisites, I think.
Jimmy Watkins (01:01:51.628)
Yeah.
Chris (01:01:56.974)
to competing with the Cavs in a seven game playoff series. I think you have to have the kind of offense that can score 120 to 130. I think you have to be able to keep up with them from three point range. I think you have to be able to space them out and pull their bigs away from the basket. I think you have to have a lineup versatility and have to play a couple of different ways. They can go man, they can go zone. They have shown that.
Jimmy Watkins (01:02:01.36)
Thank
Chris (01:02:26.788)
And I think you have to have, you know, multiple defenders that you feel like can guard on the perimeter. that can match up with Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, now Deandre Hunter, who is in that mix. Like that’s where you start a conversation for being competitive, somewhat competitive against the Cavs in a playoff environment. And I also think you have to have experience, like big game experience. Detroit’s not.
beating the Cavs in a play, they’re not ready, right? But a team like Indiana has a level of playoff readiness. They have a level of playoff maturity that they have shown that makes it like, makes it a little bit more of a conversation at the very least.
Jimmy Watkins (01:03:15.667)
And I know I downplaying the value of depth in the postseason earlier, but like, we’re talking about the Bucks, you gotta have six dudes. You start going down their list, you start going, you can take Gary Trent Jr. real quick when you start counting down the dudes that the Bucks are counting on. I Kyle Kuzma’s like their big deadline acquisition. Dude’s shooting 30 % from three since he got there.
Chris (01:03:23.824)
Thank
It can’t stop at five. It can’t stop at-
Chris (01:03:36.207)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (01:03:44.116)
And he has proven, by the way, Kaukina has proven in the past that he can be a key part of a championship winning team. But like, know a lot. We look at Damon Yadis and go, oh, scary. I think there’s still the highest scoring duo in the league. Who’s next? They need you need somebody else. Brook Lopez at age 36 is probably the no, not probably by far the third most reliable Milwaukee buck. And then Doc Rivers.
Chris (01:04:01.061)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (01:04:13.075)
crossing his fingers every night.
Chris (01:04:14.446)
Yes. At the very least, you have to have options. Remember about 10 years ago, Steve Kerr went to Anderson-Verrajao when Andy was a member of the Golden St- Sorry, Andy. I know you’re basically my neighbor, but I’m sorry. Like he went to Anderson-Verrajao in one of the playoff games at the beginning of fourth quarter and the Cavs were just like, food! We’ve got a way to go offensively.
And they just called Andy up into every single action and Kyrie just took him off the bounce and the Cavs built their lead to like seven or nine. Like that kind of stretch in a playoff game can be the difference between you winning or losing. So yeah, you can go a minute of Dante Jones like the Cavs did way back in the day and it can change a game completely for the better.
Or you can be like Steve Kerr and you can go to Anderson Veraschow at the start of the fourth quarter and it can change the game completely for the worst. So like if Milwaukee has to start a fourth quarter with Jericho Sims or something like that, and it’s a tightly contested game and it’s a tightly contested series, or he’s got to go to Kevin Porter Jr. or something like that to run the team, that could be the difference.
between you winning that series or losing that series or winning that game or losing that game. And to your point, Jimmy, the options that Kenny Atkinson, that’s the best thing about it. Okay, Max Struce doesn’t have it, more Sam Merrill, right? Okay, know, DeAndre Hunter’s in foul trouble. How about Dean Wade? All right, we need a defensive stop late in the game. Isaac, you’re on the floor.
So just having that kind of optionality is something that Milwaukee doesn’t have. It’s like, where do they go?
Jimmy Watkins (01:06:17.843)
I watched Torian Prince attempt the saddest attack of a closeout the other day that I’ve ever seen in my life. was I think he caught it in the corner and I forget who they were playing. But I think he caught it. Might have been that Paces game, actually. He got in the corner and he definitely like the lane was there. Guys closed not hard on me. All he had to do is hit the baseline and with I mean, almost the second the ball hit the ground, it got ripped from him. There’s just not the bucks. It’s an adventure. Anytime someone not named
Chris (01:06:46.798)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (01:06:47.933)
De Mariana’s has to dribble.
Ethan Sands (01:06:51.127)
think that’s a...
Chris (01:06:51.728)
That’s a pretty important thing throughout the course of a 48 minute game.
Ethan Sands (01:06:55.935)
And I don’t want to open another can of worms, but I think that’s also a reason why we have these conversations about the OKC Thunder, about how they might not have a true second ball handler or creator outside of SGA, especially with Jalen Williams working his way back, J-Dub trying to get back healthy. But yeah, I think we have beat the nail over the head with this one, guys. The Cavs are, the Cavs in the Boston Celtics are on
Chris (01:07:08.206)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (01:07:25.225)
a train track collision looking like for the Eastern Conference Finals with everything that we’re seeing because of not only their construction of their rosters, but their experiences and also just knowing what talent level they have on both sides of the ball, which is extremely important for them to get to that point. So as we’ve said,
It’s more so about getting there and seeing how those two teams fare out and then looking across and seeing who’s gonna be the opponent for one of those two teams in the NBA Finals. I’ve booked it since the beginning of the season. Chris has said basically the same thing. Brian Windhurst apparently has already booked his hotels. All these things.
Chris (01:08:18.49)
Shout out to Orlando and Miami for sucking so bad that there’s a chance for me to go there in round one, two. I’m really excited about that. I am standings watching the eight, nine situation more than anything else in the NBA at this point. And it gives me great joy that Orlando and Miami are right there. I have no respect and belief in the Bulls. So I am in line with Orlando and Miami.
Just need those two teams to hang right there and shout out to Toronto. You know, Jamal Shed was tearing it up in the first half the other night. He had five assists in 12 minutes, double digit points, and they benched him for the entire second half because he was playing too well. So shout out for Toronto, approaching games that kind of way so that I may get my wish and go to either Orlando or Miami in round one and I can golf in April.
That’ll be awesome. Thank you.
Ethan Sands (01:09:20.705)
And with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. I know we didn’t get to our Subtext questions for today’s episode or this week, but we are going to keep those, bank them like the CAS have been banking wins this season and use them next week.
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