CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins delve into the playoff viability of various NBA teams, particularly looking at potential matchups for the NBA Finals.
How to watch the Cavs: See how to watch the Cavs games with this handy game-by-game TV schedule.
Takeaways:
Oklahoma City is the most complete team in the West.
The Lakers have a strong duo in LeBron and Luka.
Playoff readiness is a concern for older players.
Role players can swing dramatically in playoff series.
Minnesota’s playoff viability is bolstered by their top 10 efficiency in both offense and defense.
Julius Randall’s potential impact in the playoffs is noteworthy.
Memphis’s playoff execution is questioned due to their half-court struggles.
Matchups play a critical role in playoff success.
The Cavs' three-point shooting ability could be a decisive factor in the playoffs.
LeBron James’s experience in finals poses a significant challenge for any team.
De’Andre Hunter’s integration into the Cavs' lineup is crucial for their playoff success.
The importance of playoff experience cannot be overstated.
Teams must identify exploitable areas in their opponents' game plans.
The mental aspect of playoff basketball can influence team performance.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Joining me today, Chris Fidor, BeReport.com, and Jimmy Watkins, columnist, cleland.com. We are being joined by Chris Fidor, who has been going through a long, long stretch of travel days.
I know there are some people that love Chris’s travel stories. know there are some people that hate Chris’s travel stories, but I feel like we have to get into the latest round of travel days for Chris simply because the Cavs are now getting into a five game road trip. There are plenty of flights that need to be caught. And it feels like the flights in the situation around the U S when it comes to planes and all these things, that’s a different conversation we could have.
a different day. But Chris, what’s been going on?
Jimmy Watkins (01:19.817)
more of a situation when it comes to landing the planes, isn’t it, these days? We’re having trouble landing them.
Ethan Sands (01:24.544)
Well, well, that’s that’s a good point, Jimmy. Chris, what has been going on with your flights and your travels? And we’re glad you keep getting there safely. Let’s continue to say that.
Chris (01:28.42)
is problematic these days.
Chris (01:33.273)
Ugh.
Chris (01:41.082)
First of all, I hate spring break when it comes to traveling. This is the worst time of year to travel. All these bros, all these girls, all these people that are going on a plane for like the first time ever and they don’t know etiquette and they don’t know what they’re doing. And there are two things that are bothering me in life when it comes to traveling these days. We have gotten to a point in society where people don’t sit in the seat that they’re actually assigned.
They sit in a different one and just assume that you’re going to be okay with that. I had multiple conversations with multiple people that took my window seat and I literally had to tell a lady, I paid $19.99 for that seat, $19.99 extra for that seat so that I could have the window. So if you think I’m just going to be like, all right, cool, keep sitting there because you are sitting there and you’re already comfortable, you’ve got the wrong guy.
I’m going to ask you to get up because this is a plane where we all have assigned seats and you can’t just pick the seat that you think is best for you. It doesn’t work that way. You sit in the seat that you are assigned and then if there’s an opening in a seat that you would prefer instead, then you move on over. So that’s number one.
Number two, I had a miserable time getting from Memphis to Cleveland. I was already connecting through Chicago because getting from Cleveland to Memphis or Memphis to Cleveland is impossible unless you do a connection. So you fly through Atlanta, you could fly through Houston, you could fly through Chicago. If you want to, you could fly through New York, go all the way there and then go to Cleveland, which is stupid, but it’s an option for some reason.
So I’m connecting in Chicago and the day that I was leaving Memphis there were biblical storms, lightning, torrential downpours, winds that were whipping. I don’t want to say a tornado because it didn’t get to that point, but in the area there were some warnings going on. So I knew that it was going to be problematic.
Chris (03:55.64)
I get there to Memphis, I check in, and obviously my flight to Chicago is delayed. And I’m going to miss my connection, so I do all this other stuff to try and figure out, okay, how am I going to get from Memphis to Cleveland? Do I go through Houston? Do I just get to Chicago and then figure it out from there, even though I’m going to miss my connection? So I just decide to stick with the...
the itinerary that I already had. I’m going through Chicago and if I have to find a different flight on a different airline, okay. If I have to take a megabus, okay. If I have to take a rental car, fine, whatever, just get me to Chicago. So...
Shortly before I left Memphis, and I left about three hours later than I was supposed to, I get a notification from the airline that says my flight from Chicago to Cleveland is delayed. And I’m like, yes, for one time I want a delay. Yes, it’s going to push it back so I can hit this connection. So, all right. I finally take off from Memphis and it was going to be a tight connection to begin with, Chicago to Cleveland. I land in Chicago.
And I get the notification, the text message from United Airlines. says, welcome to Chicago. It is 4.20 PM at this point in time. Welcome to Chicago. You have landed at gate F23. Your next flight to Cleveland departs gate C23 at 4.45. 25 minutes, 25 minutes. And then it says it usually takes 23 minutes.
to walk from gate F23 to C23. So what am I supposed to, what? I’m sorry, what? That’s a mile away. Like anywhere that you have to walk that’s going to take 20 to 25 minutes is about a mile away. It’s a crowded airport. It’s one of the busier airports. People are just walking casually along. So I’m like, what am I supposed to do?
Chris (06:03.639)
I can’t miss this flight like I’ve already had a travel nightmare to begin with. So I put my backpack on, I get my carry on, and I walk to the gate agent and I say, can you get like one of those old people cars to take me to my gate? Because I was like, I got 25 minutes to get to the gate before the thing closes. They say, no, honey, you’re going to be fine.
We’ve let them know that some of these connections were delayed. So, you know, they’re going to hold the plane. And I said to the lady, said, that’s BS. You don’t hold planes for people. You close doors on people. So she said, I’m sorry, I can’t help you. So I sprint like my days back in college in high school, backpack on, carry on in front of me. I am sprinting through the Chicago airport.
I am picking up my bag and carrying it with me upstairs, downstairs because the escalator people take too long and I know that I have like a minute to spare maybe if I make it all the way, if I run the whole time and make it all the way before they close the game. So I am huffing it, I am sweating, my pants are falling down. It’s just a nightmare.
And I finally get to the gate and they’re announcing my name. I’m the only one who has imported this thing at this point in time. I think at this point it’s 434, doors closed 10 minutes before takeoff and they’re announcing my name. I’m like, huh?
Chris, I’m here. So I’ve made it. I made it just in time. But that’s one of the most obnoxious things that they can they can land a plane at F gate.
Chris (07:56.056)
to take you to C or B or A. So that’s my other problem with airlines these days. Those are my two big issues. But I made it. Thank God I made it. That flight was also delayed because there was a mechanical issue that we found out once we started pushing back off of the jet bridge. But that was the latest travel nightmare that I have. And then me as an idiot, but like also trying to be like a good dad and a good husband.
Like I took the worst flight imaginable from Cleveland to Los Angeles. I literally went to Newark airport because of the time of the flight and when it took off. So I went to New York and hour and a half the wrong way, just to fly to Los Angeles. So instead of my flight to LA usually being about like four and a half to five hours, it was six and a half hours. So that wasn’t great.
Jimmy Watkins (08:49.449)
man, there’s, okay. I know we’re already trying to make this quick pot, but there’s so much meat on that bone. Number one, pants falling down. Pants falling down. Sounds like Chris needed to stop in Oklahoma City to get himself a belt to keep those pants up as he’s running through the airport. Number two, the seat thing. Like people trying to sit in your seat. The fact that we live in an era where everyone knows the airports are trying to squeeze every dime out of you.
Why do you think you switched your seats? Because you didn’t pay for your seat and you got a bad one. You got a bad seat. So of course you have to understand that I’m not gonna give you the seat that I paid for. Ridiculous. Also the Newark flight, my hope, a lot of these situations could be avoided if we had more direct flights in Cleveland, right? Like I was driving out, I fly to California all the time. I have family there, I was born there. It’s always hard for me to get a direct flight to San Diego to see my sister.
Chris (09:17.304)
Yes.
Chris (09:22.51)
Yes.
Chris (09:37.73)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (09:46.079)
And yet I drive through the Cleveland airport. see direct flights to Ireland. Who’s that for? Who’s that for? mean, Ireland’s a great country. St. Patrick’s day. I celebrated over the weekend. Don’t get me wrong. How many direct flights to Ireland do we really need? Fewer than we need to San Diego. I guarantee it. But hopefully the only reason I’m in favor of the new Brown stadium, mostly I’m against billionaires trying to milk the city for
Chris (09:46.499)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (09:50.322)
Chris (09:57.496)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (10:12.533)
public money to build their new stadium. Although I think Jimmy Haslam came out today and said, I’m going to invest more money. You should, you have it. You’re a billionaire, you should. But hopefully, Brooke Park gives us better airport situation. That’s what I’ll say.
Chris (10:21.559)
Yes.
Chris (10:26.761)
Ugh, the airport, I mean the Cleveland airport. I don’t want people to be listening to the, whatever, I don’t care. It’s one of the worst in the entire country. As somebody who flies around the entire country for a living and goes to every single airport that is meaningful, that has an NBA team, Hopkins is one of the worst. By far, there is nothing good about it. The food options suck. The concourse, terrible. Security, awful.
Parking situation dreadful. There is no redeeming quality about Hopkins. And to top it all off, the amount of flights that they have to and from Cleveland have dropped significantly. There isn’t even a direct flight to Miami these days. You have to go to Florida, Latter-Dale, or you have to connect somewhere to get to Miami. Like, what is that? You kidding me?
Jimmy Watkins (11:20.297)
When the snowbirds can’t be snowbirds, you gotta lose your wings as an airport, feel like. By the way, there goes our Hopkins podcast sponsor there. But even if they tried to give it to us, I would say no. And now I cannot in good faith tell these people, if there are other options, take them, take them.
Chris (11:29.849)
You
Chris (11:34.273)
No, I don’t want to.
Chris (11:39.578)
That’s right. I can’t do a live read endorsing this. No, no, no. There’s not even a direct flight to Milwaukee. There’s not a direct flight to Indy. We’re lucky that there’s actually a direct flight to New York and all these other places. But I mean, like the number of direct flights, those have dropped significantly over the last couple of years. So yeah, mean, Hopkins terrible. And my pants falling down. So the day that,
When I went to Memphis, when I went to Memphis, like I only wanted to take the smallest carry-on that I had. It was a couple of day trip and it was on the heels of another trip and it was going into a long trip too. So it was just sandwiched in between a bad one for me. And I had like no clothes that were clean, whatever. But I was going to Memphis and I didn’t really need anything fancy because I wasn’t going to go out there.
because I was getting in the night before, late at night, dinner, whatever. So I was down to like my last pair of joggers. And this one was the only pair that I didn’t have the drawstring on because all of my other good joggers.
were being washed in preparation for this five city, 10 day trip that I’m currently on. So the one day that I’m forced to run through the airport, it’s the one day that I wear the joggers that don’t have the drawstring. So I’ve got my backpack on, I’ve got my carry on. So one handle on the carry on handle, the other one like trying to hold up my pants from my butt so that they weren’t falling off. It was the most awkward way to
But I made it. you know, I had the good thing though that I was wearing like my running shoes. Because if I would have been wearing a pair of like my Air Force 1s or my Jordan Concords or something, that probably wouldn’t have been great for those shoes to run in.
Jimmy Watkins (13:41.363)
Ethan’s just begging us, can we talk basketball please? At some point. Chris is an airport hero, this is important.
Chris (13:45.977)
you
Ethan Sands (13:49.646)
I’m just over here like we have a time crunch that we discussed before the podcast we tried to We tried to half and half is insane 15 minutes of airplane talk 15 minutes. I love it. I love it. I’m just I’m already anticipating having to read reviews and comments about it, but I love it. I love it so much. okay
Chris (13:56.378)
It’s fine. Half and half. Perfect.
Chris (14:03.043)
Perfect.
Jimmy Watkins (14:03.083)
We got.
Jimmy Watkins (14:14.079)
Airports are relatable. Why do you think every stand-up comedian has an airport bit? Because everyone can relate to them.
Chris (14:19.545)
Yes.
Ethan Sands (14:22.39)
Well, I’m not a comedian. I might come off as funny, funny looking too, but not a comedian. But,
Chris (14:28.801)
I will say the saving grace on me going to Newark, which never again. A six hour flight is so long, so long. The saving grace is that they obviously had in-flight entertainment. I watched Gladiator 2.
on my flight from Newark to Los Angeles, Gladiator 2, folks, fantastic. Really, really good. I love the way that they tied in everything and they tied everything up after that with a bow. So if you’re a Gladiator fan and Gladiator is one of my favorite movies of all time, I wasn’t sure about Gladiator 2, right? Because if you have Gladiator already out there and it’s one of the best movies ever,
What are you going to do that is comparable enough to that that’s not going to diminish it? Gladiator 2 was good enough that it was worth doing that sequel. highly recommend it. Two thumbs up as Siskel and Ebert would say. Are they still around? No? No? Okay. So, 8.1 on Chris Fidor’s Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB or whatever. How about that?
Ethan Sands (15:31.615)
No idea. No idea.
Jimmy Watkins (15:41.077)
Letterbox, the kids are on Letterboxd these days.
Ethan Sands (15:41.368)
It’s a pretty good reading.
Chris (15:43.423)
okay, got it.
Ethan Sands (15:45.196)
Letterbox is the new wave. Thank you, Jimmy, for putting Chris on. But the reason we were talking about the West Coast trip is because the Cavs are on the way or already in Los Angeles, California to play against the Clippers. So the five game road trip brings up the idea of how the Cavs could fare in the playoffs, because as we mentioned on this podcast at an abundance,
Chris (15:48.909)
Peace.
Ethan Sands (16:14.242)
the regular season no longer really matters, right? The Cavs aren’t baking wins. They surely will try and go for the franchise record when it comes to wins in a season. But with all that being said, we want to kind of look forward. We want to bring you guys insight into what we think the possibilities are for the NBA Finals. Because as Chris and I mentioned on a previous podcast,
The Cavs, if they get to the Eastern Conference Finals and play the Boston Celtics, which we all can say we feel is a collision course, I think the Cavs can say that they need to get over the hump that is Boston to feel like they had a successful season. However, they do that. So we’re already looking all the way to the NBA Finals, trying to put it into three teams, the top three teams that we could see making it out of the West to face off against the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Chris, I want to start with you because I feel like there’s three distinct teams. Jimmy, before the podcast started, said there could be more. What do you think the Western Conference falls into the teams that you could see making it out of the West?
Chris (17:24.835)
think the West is Oklahoma City and everybody else. I mean, I understand the Lakers now have Luca and LeBron. And when you have both of those guys in a seven game series, it’s going to be really, really difficult to beat them. But the rest of that roster construction leaves a lot to be desired. I how many minutes are they going to give to Dalton Connect in a playoff series? How many minutes are they going to give to Jackson Hayes? Jackson Hayes! You know, a New Orleans Pelicans outcast.
How many are they going to give to him? How many are they going to force to give to him? Rui Hachimura is injured right now. Are they just going to play small ball five with him the whole time? So I just think, you know, yes, they have LeBron and Luca and Austin Reeves is a really, really good third option. But beyond that, I mean, I just don’t know that they have enough for a complete team like OKC.
And Golden State’s interesting too, especially the way that they’ve played since Jimmy Butler, but there are still some questions that I have with them in terms of playoff level readiness beyond those three guys, Steph, Draymond, and Jimmy. And Draymond’s not the same guy that he was a number of years ago. Both offensively and defensively, he’s taken a little bit of a step back. How many minutes can he play?
in a game, you really going to play him 35, 40 minutes a night when you start expanding how much you’re relying on your main guys? It’s one thing to say, all right, we’re going to expand the minutes of LeBron and he’s just going to play close to 48. LeBron’s capable of doing that and he can be effective doing that. Can Steph? Can Draymond? Can Jimmy? I think that’s a legitimate question about that.
So I think Oklahoma City is still the most complete team. And I think, you know, going through what they’ve gone through recently in some of their playoffs, I think that’s helped them. I think that’s going to harden them. I think that’s going to make them better. I think Isaiah Hartenstein is a guy who steals multiple possessions on the offensive end of the floor, the way that he did in New York and defensively having to deal with them over the course of a playoff series.
Chris (19:37.005)
where they can really lock into scouting reports and they can take away your strengths and try and exploit your weaknesses. I just think it’s Oklahoma City and everybody else still.
Jimmy Watkins (19:50.059)
So obviously everything, there’s basically no piece of data that I can give you based on what Oklahoma City has been doing since October that would refute that. That being said, I would say that I was a little, I was left a little sour by how Jalen Williams looked in that Maverick series at times last year. As a secondary creator, I think, I mean, you could talk about how
Chris (20:11.671)
Hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (20:17.793)
In many ways that series came down to PJ Washington had the best shooting series of his life and the Thunder’s capable shooters shot below their capability. like, I wrote about this with the Cavs on Sunday, like sometimes random three pointer stuff happens. And when you have unproven three, like role players in the playoffs, those we know from last year watching the Cavs, right?
Role players swing from high to low a lot in playoff series. as particularly as you change venues from home to road. And it’s just like, I know what I’m getting from Shea every night. That dude is the steadiest. Does he still have the crazy 60 plus 20 point game streak? I don’t know. He’s like, chow, like he might break the record for most consecutive 60 point games here before the end of the season. He is the most, one of the most, I’m not sure I trust anyone outside of Jokic more than, and then maybe Luca.
Chris (21:02.162)
Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (21:12.723)
on offense in the playoffs. I’m not sure I trust anyone else more than I trust Shay. But it’s like the entire defensive philosophy of their opponents is going to be, well, how many shots can we make other guys take? And that’s where I start to have questions. thought against Boston, Chet Holmgren looked great. I mean, they didn’t even have Jaylen Williams when they beat Boston the other week. Chet Holmgren looked awesome on offense. If you’re getting that out of Chet Holmgren.
Chris (21:27.661)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (21:40.961)
I’m feeling great about the Thunder. I’m just not sure. watching at home Grim’s NBA career unfold thus far, I have, I still have injury questions, whether how, how durable he’s going to be for this run. I have questions about Jaylen Williams. Are you ready to be that certified number two? Kind of like we talked about with the Cavs. Um, I think that was the last week with, with Darius and Evan. need to see it still, which is again, is that, is that a, it’s kind of a weak argument, but like we had that, we had the stat about.
Chris (22:02.681)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (22:09.355)
teams who hadn’t make the conference finals before the finals, which I think the number is actually three out of 18. I’ve been like revising the stat for three weeks now because I just, one, I can’t do math. I was like counting 10 years backward and I was counting this year. Of course we haven’t had the finals this year yet, so whatever. And then there’s, there’s a team that I miss. I don’t know our guy, our guy Garrett from the Cavs stopped me when I walked in the other day. He’s like, Hey, this math doesn’t make sense. I promise. I’m not trying to spread misinformation. I’m just an idiot.
Chris (22:18.582)
Yeah.
Chris (22:24.109)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (22:38.973)
That’s what I’ll say about that. So anyways, basketball. I think the Thunder are going to be tested by, it’s not about shades, it’s about the other guys. And when you look around at the other teams in the West, I got Steph Curry and Jimmy Butler. I got LeBron James and Luka Donjic. I got Nikolay Ovich and Jamal Murray, cemented playoff dogs. And I know the Thunder have like one of the greatest defenses we’ve ever seen, but when you’re playing against megastars,
Chris (22:58.393)
Hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (23:07.423)
They kind of, I’m not saying it neutralizes how great your defense is, but it matters less because it really doesn’t matter what sort of defense you throw at Nikola Jokic or Luka Doncic or Steph Curry on his best day or playoff Jimmy. Like they just figure it out.
Ethan Sands (23:22.456)
So let me break this down the way that I’m seeing it, right? Obviously, you got the top tier of Oklahoma City. We understand that they have a liability as a second ball creator, all these things. Shay Gilder’s Alexander is the front runner for MVP. We know that he is able to do all these things to elevate his team to the next level. The next tier for me is Denver in LA. I really do think that
the Denver Nuggets showcase even last night how many different options they can have when they played against the Golden State Warriors without Nicole Jokic, without Jamal Murray and still were able to come away with that win kind of convincingly in the last set of that game, right? So I’m not in obviously we’re talking about a Golden State Warriors team that did have Draymond, that did have Jimmy Butler, that did have Steph Curry. And I’m not gonna say and I’m not gonna sit here and say that I
don’t believe in Steph Curry’s ability because as Chris says about LeBron, you would feel dumb doing that and then Steph going off and doing what he’s been able to do his entire career. My thing is, we’re talking about getting out of the Western Conference. We’re talking about potentially for them having to get out of the playing tournament, then having to get out of the first round, then having to get out of Eastern, the Western Conference semi-finals, then having to play whoever they match up with in the Western Conference finals and
Chris (24:36.813)
Hmm.
Ethan Sands (24:49.656)
Chris, you mentioned it a little bit there about just Steph and Draymond wearing down with age. I don’t know if you’re going to get the same level of Steph and Draymond even in the first series that they play in, much less the fourth series that they potentially have to play in because they’re on the cusp of being a play-in team. They’re the sixth seed, the Minnesota Timberwolves are 17 games back, and they also are the seventh seed. So those two teams could be interchangeable.
Chris (25:01.751)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (25:17.25)
You also have the LA Clippers who are 18 games back from the first seed. That is a tight race that I have my eye on when it comes down to it. But then obviously my third team that I feel like could make it, could be a viable option to make it out of the West is the Los Angeles Lakers, Luke Adonchus, LeBron James. I think they’re finding options when it comes to lob threats that help Jackson Hayes, help their bigger guys be able to.
Create for themselves and get open because Luca is such a lob passer and he likes having a high flyer on his team I think that’s something that we can look for for him to help not only himself But help create for them as well on the offensive end while Jackson Hayes still isn’t a horrible defender Even though he can’t get bullied by a bigger guy when we talk about like Nicole Jokic or Jaron Jackson jr. Whoever they might face so I definitely think there’s the
Those are my top three options. But for you guys, I wanted to ask this, who do you think is like the biggest sleeper? And obviously it’s funny to talk about them as a sleeper, but the Houston Rockets are young. They’re the second seed in the Western Conference. You guys don’t think they’re going to get out? Okay. And then they got the Minnesota Timberwolves as well, right? So those are the two teams that I would pick up as sleepers, but I don’t think they’re ready either to get out of the West.
Chris (26:26.081)
Nope. Not ready. Nope. Not ready.
Ethan Sands (26:39.586)
Why do you guys think that and who would you say is the sleeper for the Western Conference?
Chris (26:44.441)
Well, one of the first things that I always look at when I’m assessing a team’s playoff viability or championship winning viability, and there is no end all be all. There’s no one catch all stat that tells you everything that you want to know about a team’s resume. Right. But one of the first things that I look at is are you top 10 in both offense and defensive efficiency? And Minnesota is. Minnesota is. And Minnesota went to the conference finals last year.
And Minnesota has a megastar who has shown that he can be successful and he can do it at a high level on the playoff stage. And I think Minnesota has enough other talented guys around Ant that can take some of the offensive burden off of him.
Julius Randall can be a problem in the right situation in the playoffs. know Dante DiVincenzo can make seven games in a game or make seven threes in a game seven or seven threes in a game six to completely shift it like he’s completely capable of those kinds of things. How much are they going to be able to play Rudy? The evolution of Jaden McDaniels has been an interesting thing to follow.
He’s more accomplished, he’s more reliable as an offensive player. So I don’t know that Minnesota is as complete of a roster as a team like OKC. I don’t think they are, but there’s something to be said for maturity, big game experience, and doing it. The run that Minnesota went on last year, and I know they had Kat, and Kat was there instead of Julius.
But the run that Minnesota, majority of the Minnesota guys went on together, they know how to handle situations. Chris Finch knows how to handle situations as a head coach. And I think those kinds of things matter. And like I said, even though they’ve been quote unquote underachieving, to be top 10 in both offense and defense, that speaks to me on a different kind of level. And look, Memphis is top 10 in both too.
Chris (28:48.909)
But I don’t believe in Memphis, the half court executing team, when you get into a playoff environment against really good defensive teams that are trying to take away your strengths and keep you in the half court. And it becomes more physical and all those different things. just don’t think Memphis can execute well enough consistently in a half court setting to win.
three playoff series in the Western Conference meat grinder. So to me, Minnesota is the one that stands out.
Jimmy Watkins (29:19.777)
How about...
free playoff series for Memphis. want one. just, I love so many of Memphis' players, including Ja. Ja’s one of the most entertaining guys in the league. But when you’re a perimeter player and you can’t shoot, like, there’s just, I can’t get there with you. I can’t get there with you. I’m with you on Minnesota. I they’ve, what they, won like 13 or 14 in a row since Julius? Julius played some of those games and missed some time and now he’s back and they’re playing really well. Julius Randall also shoots 34 % career from the field.
in the playoffs. He hasn’t played in a couple of years, he’s been hurt. He’s evolved as a player during that time, so I’m open to it, but he’s had some real, I think two years ago he was hurt during the playoffs, so that’s a confounding factor as well. He hasn’t played that many games, I need to, Julius Randall has a high burden of proof. I love Ant, I love the Minnesota defense. Dante DiVincenzo is a 3-and-D guy, is incredible. I also just want to say this about Denver. Minnesota matches up very well with Denver, but Denver’s like, what are they?
I just had them look it up over the last 15 games. Denver is 23rd in defense behind the Brooklyn Nets and Utah Jazz. I know Aaron Gordon’s been in and out of the lineup and I genuinely, generally trust that if they have their core guys, meaning Jamal, Michael Porter Jr., Jokic and Gordon ready to go during the playoffs, I don’t want to see that team. But like that’s real concerning to me. And they’re playing Jamal and Jokic a lot of minutes during this regular season.
Chris (30:47.513)
Thank you.
Jimmy Watkins (30:50.581)
What’s supposed to be the throttle downtime for a lot of teams. This, I think Tom Heverstur has had the stat for a long time that your first 10 games are as illustrative as your last 10 games. So I don’t want to get too caught up in like who’s hot at the right time. I just don’t love the vibes on Denver, particularly on defense right now. And Russell Westbrook as a, as a playoff guy at this stage of his career. just talked about, you know, perimeter guys who, who can’t shoot it. If you’re playing Ross out there, you’re playing four on five.
You just are.
Chris (31:20.833)
Yeah. So here’s the question that I have. If the Cavs get to the NBA finals, which team would pose the biggest threat to them? Like which team would fans be worried about the most? Do you think it’s OKC?
Ethan Sands (31:30.562)
That was my last question.
Jimmy Watkins (31:37.505)
I think it’s okay to see because if they get there, that means they have answered a lot of the questions that I just asked about them in the affirmative. We got this. means that, I mean, that would mean that both of those teams have done that. But I mean, I guess you say that about whoever makes the finals. Like if Luca and LeBron figure out a way to get there, that’s terrifying. If Denver gets there, that’s terrifying. I guess now I’m just naming all the teams. think it, would, I think I would,
Chris (31:48.142)
No.
Jimmy Watkins (32:05.599)
The team that would scare me the most is a team with a ton of finals. If the Warriors get there, because the finals are their own animal, the schedule changes, there’s so many more people around you, you’re hyper aware of how different the stage is. So think OKC and the Cavs would be kind of walking the same line in that regard. A lot of Superstars first finals are wonky and weird.
not indicative of who they are as a playoff performer. So if you get like, I just feel like you’re starting in the hole a little bit as a first time finals team. So if you’ve got a team full of dudes that knows what it takes to play on that stage, then I think you’re starting in the hole. So I would take a team like Golden State or with the Lakers as the scariest team.
Ethan Sands (32:53.454)
I’m going with OKC straight off the bat. Like the defensive pressure that OKC is able to put on the guards. And I know they would have had to answer a whole lot of questions potentially if Boston gets to the Eastern Conference Finals about playing against that defensive minded team, like with having so much length, so much strength, so much different versatility in those aspects. But it’s a different level when you’re going up against Lou Dore.
Like, Donovan Mitchell leads one of the best points per game scorers against the Boston Celtics in history, right? Then you put him against...
Jimmy Watkins (33:25.717)
DORT! DORT!
Chris (33:27.833)
You
Ethan Sands (33:28.856)
then you put him up against a guy. He might have a great series, he might have a bad series, but then either way, you put him up against a guy who has historically troubled him. And then Darius Garland, you know, we talk about this again, four series is a lot in the body that he’s gonna have to have to go through these series. I just don’t know how the strength, the physicality, all these different things, because the other thing that it is for me is,
The OKC Thunder also have two bigs that they can rely on to match up against Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, and it would force Kenny Atkinson to use lineups that he doesn’t necessarily use as much, right? Sure, you can put Evan Mobley alongside Deandre Hunter or Dean Wade and you feel like you don’t lose a whole lot of size compared to Jared Allen, but they don’t necessarily have the strength or the imposing will that Jared Allen does on the interior to keep up with Isaiah Starr-Hartenstein, if that’s who
the Thunder continue to go with on the floor. Obviously if it’s Chet Hongren that becomes a much easier conversation to match up between Chet and Evan. But I just think there’s more match up problems that can be caused or match up evenness that can be seen between the Cavs and the OKC Thunder that would make that a great series, but it would also pose the most problems for the Cavs in the NBA Finals to me.
Chris (34:54.137)
That’s the thing too, when you get in the playoff environment, so much of this is about matchups. We’ve talked about this so many different times. A couple of years ago, if the Cavs get somebody else other than New York, they probably advance out of the first round. But there were so many things that that iteration of the Cavs didn’t do well, that the Knicks did well. And you were like, uh-oh. Like the Knicks at that point had a deeper bench. The Knicks at that point...
where an elite offensive rebounding team playing against a Cavs team that wasn’t great in terms of defensive rebounding. The Knicks had a bunch of tough, physical, bruising guys and the Cavs weren’t built that same kind of way. So, so much of this is about matchups. Which brings me to another question too, as we think about this out loud. Like what are, if you’re playing against the Cavs in a seven game series,
What are the exploitable areas where you say, all right, that could be advantageous for us? Like that’s something that we can take advantage of. Because I don’t know that with the calves, this version of the calves, I don’t know that there’s one that stands out. The one that was there was remedied at the trade deadline. You the calves did not have a reliable enough wing.
to fill those minutes for 48 minutes over the course of a game and then for however many minutes it was going to be over the course of a series, they didn’t have the size, they didn’t have the length, they didn’t have the athleticism on the perimeter, they were a little bit smaller in stature. Yeah, they have Evan Moley, yeah, they have Jared Allen, and those guys protect the paint, those guys anchor the defense, those guys cover up weaknesses, but they didn’t have the size on the perimeter to deal with the
Jaylen Browns of the world and Franz Wagner and Paolo Bencaro. Now you just play Deandre Hunter like 36 or 40 minutes and then all you have to do is find another 10 to 15 to fill those spots. So I just don’t know like what the other team is going to look at and say, oh, okay, we can get you in this particular area. It’s not the coaching anymore, right?
Chris (37:10.891)
And that brings me to this too. Like there are other teams that we look at in the Western Conference that we say, well, they’re the team with the flaws, right? They’re the team that the Cavs can look at various things on the scouting report and say, like, hey, we can capitalize on that, or that can be advantageous for us. And one of the ones that stands out to me is like how many teams can consistently keep up with the Cavs in a potential three-point shooting contest?
And I know that there’s variance, but the Cavs are an elite three-point shooting team and they have multiple guys that can make multiple threes and it makes them very, very difficult to deal with. Can Denver keep up with the Cavs in the three-point shooting contest? I don’t think so. So like, does that just eliminate them right off the bat? Maybe. You know, I think the Lakers could.
Ethan Sands (37:41.518)
So.
Chris (38:08.887)
Luca takes a whole bunch of them, Rui can hit them, LeBron can hit them, Reeves is a sniper.
Jimmy Watkins (38:13.269)
The Lakers, I think the Lakers would do a lot of manipulating the pace too with LeBron and Luca just slowing it down, trying to make it at half, because the Cavs are, they are, I checked this last week, they were the best transition offense and the best half court offense according to cleaning the glass who’s sidebar. Ben Falk has the, he’s his own one man support team and he gave me the greatest, he gave me the greatest like assistant, like I need your help experience. We have, we’ve exchanged messages via email like.
Chris (38:19.021)
Yeah.
Chris (38:35.052)
You
Jimmy Watkins (38:42.635)
three times in 30 minutes, is better than you’ll find at any one of the major corporations in America. I’ll tell you that just as a sidebar. So they have a great transition offense and a great half court offense, but I still think teams will want to see them slow it down and test, okay, Evan Mobley, like how many of these things are you really willing to take? How many of these threes are you really willing to make? They want to make Darius and Donovan play more Isoball and attack them on defense, try to wear those guys down.
These are not glaring weaknesses. These are just the areas, the buttons that teams are going to try to push in a, playoff setting. I’d also just say, we’re talking about the finals, LeBron James, modern day goats, if not the all time goats, in his first playoff series, which let’s be fair, wasn’t fair because it was him and some dudes against one of the best defensive teams of all time in the Spurs in 07. Four straight games shooting under 43%.
Chris (39:15.0)
Yeah.
Chris (39:30.723)
Thank you.
Jimmy Watkins (39:37.161)
I dare you to find another stretch of games like that in his entire career. And that’s what happened in his first playoffs. Again, entire defense scored geared toward him. All time great defense. The Dallas series. was, yeah, but he kind of, he had a couple of okay games or at least more efficient games at the end. I didn’t check the game logs on that one, but like, I’m just telling you if Donovan or Darius or someone, right. Well, the idea of that with the Dallas was like, you’re not even shooting. Like what’s going on here? Like that’s, that’s next level.
Chris (39:45.079)
well, the Dallas series, his first year in play.
Chris (39:55.116)
Yeah.
Chris (39:58.562)
He also went 3 of 11.
Jimmy Watkins (40:07.035)
but I just think we need to prepare ourselves for a little bit of early jitters from the Cavs if they make that final drum.
Chris (40:18.169)
terrifying to an organization trying to win its first championship without LeBron for an organization that is trying to you know cement its place in history among the all-time great teams because that’s what the Cavs would have an opportunity to do if they got to the NBA Finals. Are you kidding me? Seeing that guy in a 7-8 nobody wants to see that guy.
in a seven game series. We talk about playoff Jimmy all the time with Jimmy Butler just elevating him. Playoff LeBron is just no. That would be horrendous for the Cavs. And that doesn’t mean that the Cavs would be a horrible matchup for LA, but there’s like a mental thing involved with that too. There has to be for an organization. Like we’ve got to get over the hump against that freaking guy. Like really us?
No, I don’t think anybody with the calves would want to deal with him.
Ethan Sands (41:13.932)
No, I agree with you, but let’s put it this way. When it comes to ratings, when it comes to what the NBA might try and put together, if you think that that’s what the NBA is capable of doing, there’s two main series that I think they would-
Jimmy Watkins (41:27.039)
The stories we could write boys. The stories we could write about LeBron vs. the Cavs in the finals. Come on.
Ethan Sands (41:33.666)
I think there’s.
I think there’s two main series that would be the most watched potentially ever. If we’re talking about like just series in the NBA finals and it both of course has to do with LeBron making it to the finals. It would be LA versus the Celtics or LA versus the Cavs. But I do want to touch on this because Chris sent out an important subtext that I think
goes along with what we were talking about with the Deandre Hunter acquisition is that Deandre Hunter has played just 21 minutes with the core four, right? And Chris, you mentioned wanting to uptake his minutes and understanding that he has played well in the playoffs. He played well for Virginia in the national championship. He has that kind of pedigree, that experience in late game situations, all these things. the question, and this is basically going to Keith.
Jimmy Watkins (42:30.433)
He also did, I just want to point out, he also did hit the side of the backboard in an important fourth quarter three pointer on Sunday. I’m just being, I’m just trying to be balanced here. I’m not saying that’s indicative of what’s to come, but Darius Garland threw one of the best passes I’ve ever seen on Sunday and Deandre Hunter hit that thing square off the side of the backboard.
Chris (42:38.275)
you
Jesus.
Chris (42:51.619)
Leave it to Jimmy.
Ethan Sands (42:55.278)
He did. He sure did. But what I’m saying is, I think this is a tease because I want our podcast listeners to understand this. This is being recorded at 4 20 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on Tuesday, March 18th. This is before the game against the Los Angeles Clippers tonight. It will probably go up on YouTube before then and probably on Apple Podcasts and Spotify at 5 a.m. on
Wednesday morning, but this is going to basically tease into a different conversation that we’re gonna have as we will more than likely record earlier in the day throughout the week as the Cavs are playing in the West Coast and games are not starting until 10 p.m. Eastern Time and that would be just hectic to record at 2 or 3 in the morning and figure all that stuff out with Chris on the other end, but Deandre Hunter, Starter Minutes in the playoffs.
playing alongside the core four. Is it time for the Cavs to start thinking about transitioning him to get more minutes with the core four now? Obviously, this is a harder conversation because Evan Mobley is currently questionable for the Los Angeles Clippers game with a right foot contusion. going into the latter half of the season, do you do everything possible
to get Deontay Hunter as comfortable as possible to play alongside the Core Four, and that would mean potentially putting him in the starting lineup, or putting him as the first guy off the bench and getting Max Drews off the floor sooner rather than later. Chris, I know we’re not gonna go into this extremely long, but I wanted to get into the mental part of it with you really quickly to think what you think psychologically changes for
Chris (44:40.323)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (44:47.672)
DeAndre or Max when it comes to starter minutes, bench minutes, obviously knowing that Max Drews came to this team wanting and knowing that he was going to get starter minutes and start in most games.
Chris (45:00.417)
I don’t think a lot changes to be honest with you and I also You know, I don’t think it’s as simplistic as Do it all cost at the end I think the Cavs have to figure things out in this final stretch of regular season games and I think there are different things that they want to work through and I think one of them is Get De’Andre some time with the core four just to see how that looks to see how he functions there to see if his skill set blends properly with them because sometimes
that’s what it’s about with lineups and combinations. Do you have the right skill sets that are blending out there? And it’s like with Max, he brings an element of movement. He brings an element of gravity. He brings an element of cutting and stuff like that. That helps a lot of those members of that core four. That helps that starting group.
So I just think at the end of the day, when it comes to DeAndre, it’s just another option that Kenny Atkinson has that if he doesn’t like how things are going with Max Struess in that starting group, he can have a quick hook on it. mean, think back to the Boston game that they played recently. know, Max was getting cooked early on in that game and Boston was targeting him over and over and over again. So for the remainder of the game, Kenny Atkinson didn’t look at him and didn’t treat him like the starting caliber
small forward. He basically treated him
like a role player and a specialist. And that’s what you have the freedom to do with this particular team, because you have other options that can step up and you can have other options that can take on that heavier workload. And you have guys on this team that have bought into the greater good and they have understood that that sacrifice is going to be required, whether that’s playing time, whether that’s touches, whether that shot attempts, everybody is on the same page of
Chris (46:54.715)
of what it’s going to take for this team to win a championship. So I think when you have guys with that understanding and they’ve backed it up with their actions, I don’t think it’s a situation where you’re gonna lose Max Truss by pulling him, right? I don’t think it’s a situation where you’re gonna lose Deandre Hunter if you don’t have him in the starting lineup or you...
have a situation where, you know, he’s more comfortable, generally speaking, coming off the bench and you put him in the starting line. Like, I don’t think that’s going to affect how he’s going to play. think De’Andre is a blender. I think Max Drews can be a blender. I think those guys can fit in a variety of lineups with a variety of different guys and they bring something different to this team, but the Cavs need both elements. So to me, it’s just about finding 48 solid, consistent minutes.
at the small forward spot. And I think the calves now, because of DeAndre, have enough options to do that.
Jimmy Watkins (47:53.537)
Two quick things and we’ll get out of here. Two quick... Or not. We don’t... Okay.
Ethan Sands (47:54.574)
All right, so.
Chris (47:58.99)
Yeah, go ahead. that’s fine.
Ethan Sands (48:01.516)
I wanna pref- I wanna save it, I wanna save it. I wanna save it. I wanna save it. I wanna save it. Because I think-
Chris (48:05.155)
Okay.
Jimmy Watkins (48:05.913)
So that’s two quick things. They’re the quickest things that you’ve ever seen or heard. They’ll be so quick. I might have already I might have already said them. I might have already said them. You didn’t even know. That’s how quick they were. Okay. So two things. I think they’re already kind of
Ethan Sands (48:11.182)
Jimmy, when you say quick things, they turn into 20 minutes.
Ethan Sands (48:18.83)
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
Chris (48:20.471)
Also, I believe Evan Wellbley is going to play against the Clippers.
Jimmy Watkins (48:23.989)
Boom! Look at that! Boom! Christmasle! Christmasle!
Ethan Sands (48:25.292)
Wait, what? Wait! Say it again because I think Jimmy was talking over you, please.
Chris (48:27.351)
Yes.
Chris (48:34.393)
I believe Evan Mobley is going to play against the Clippers. I don’t think he’s going to sit out another game.
Ethan Sands (48:40.088)
Thank you. Now, Jimmy, two things, go ahead.
Jimmy Watkins (48:41.985)
See, we wouldn’t even got that piece of news on the pod, that piece of news on the pod that people might not hear until after everybody plays the game. They’re already doing this. DeAndre Hunter is already closing games with three of the four members of the core four. I don’t know how many situations will, where the best look for the Cavs is the core four plus DeAndre Hunter. think Boston is probably what we’re looking at here where he needs to play a lot more. And then the other thing about like,
Chris (48:50.059)
I’m right.
Jimmy Watkins (49:09.441)
So what we’re talking about here is he’s already playing with Donovan, Darius and Evan at the end of games. So we’re talking about the fit between Jared Allen, the easiest guy to fit in the, like Jared Allen, we could put him on any NBA team a different day of the month and they would all immediately know how to use him and he would keep doing exactly what he’s doing now. So minimal concern about Deandre getting more minutes with the core four.
Ethan Sands (49:37.88)
Quickest two things you’ve ever done, Jimmy. Proud of you, man. Quickest. All right. With...
Chris (49:40.621)
That was quick. Well done there.
Quick, concise, like it.
Jimmy Watkins (49:47.755)
This is the most, also the most 50 minute, 30 minute podcast we’ve ever done.
Ethan Sands (49:47.896)
to the point. Lee loved to see it.
Ethan Sands (49:53.972)
No, no, you can’t say that because every time me and Chris were on the podcast together and we’re like, all right, let’s make it short. It ends up being an hour. So I tell him this every time. Every time he says the podcast is going to be short, he jinxes it and we end up potting for at least 50 minutes. So but with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the wine and gold talk podcast. But remember
to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. It’s a five game road trip. There’s a lot of different places where the Cavs are going to be traveling to. If you got travel tips for Chris, if you got travel food recommendations for Chris, if you got anything that you want to send over to Chris, me and Jimmy on Subtext, this is the place to do it. If you want to argue which team you think will impose the biggest problems.
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Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.