CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, hosts Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the Cavs' recent victory over the Utah Jazz, and the importance of maintaining joy and team identity amidst adversity.
How to watch the Cavs: See how to watch the Cavs games with this handy game-by-game TV schedule.
Takeaways:
The Cavs secured a significant win, breaking a four-game losing streak.
Shooting efficiency was a major issue in the first half.
The team found their rhythm in the second half, improving their shooting.
Maintaining joy and a positive team identity is crucial for success.
The Cavs demonstrated resilience in overcoming adversity this season.
Past playoff experiences are shaping the team’s current focus and mindset.
The debate over Defensive Player of the Year highlights the performance of Mobley and Green.
Darius Garland’s recent struggles raise concerns about his playoff readiness.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Top Podcast. And joining me all the way from Utah, Chris Fedor, after the Cavs come back win 120-91. The Cavs are back in the win column after losing four straight. Their longest losing streak of the season is no more. Chris.
The Cavs with their win tonight were able to tie their most role victories in a single season, 27 matching their 2008-2009 year. And then also they clinched a top two seed in the Eastern Conference and home court advantage in the first two rounds of the postseason. Their magic number to clinch the top seed in the Eastern Conference is now seven. I know this game from the beginning.
was very weird. The first half was not a good one from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The second half was much different. Let’s break it down by the first half. What did you see? And we’ll get into what changed in the second half in just a little bit.
Chris (01:18.69)
They couldn’t shoot. mean, that’s the thing that stood out to me in the first half. It seemed like they were executing the way that they wanted to offensively. The ball was moving. The ball was finding the right people. DeAndre Hunter, Max Struus, Donovan Mitchell shot an air ball. Darius Garland shot an air ball. I mean, it was weird from the standpoint of the Cavs. Shot making just was not there to the level that it’s been throughout the course of the season.
It is very, very difficult to look good on the offensive end of the floor when you’re shooting 38 % from the field and 12 % from three point range. It’s going to make it look ugly. It’s going to make it look like you’re not executing properly. It’s going to make it look like you don’t have energy and you’re disjointed and discombobulated and stuff like that. And there were like some decision-making things mixed in there and there were some
defensive breakdown things mixed in there and a lack of attention to detail on the defensive end of the floor and some of the stuff that Kenny Atkinson has been preaching over the last week, week and a half about following a specific scouting report and trusting your teammate on defense and the mental breakdowns and stuff like that. Those things were apparent too. But the biggest thing that I saw in the first half was the Cavs couldn’t make shots.
They were running the offense the way that they wanted to run it. They had good looks from three point range. They just weren’t making those shots. Beyond that, know, Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, they weren’t great in terms of efficiency. But, you know, as much as we have seen throughout the course of this losing streak,
a lot of glaring problems that said that their process was a little bit flawed. I didn’t see that in the first half against Utah. I just saw a team that was playing basically at noon their time. That’s what their body clock had it as that was playing the fourth game of a long road trip toward the end of a hellish March that just they weren’t making shots. And sometimes that happens.
Chris (03:40.218)
And for them, despite the fact that they were so bad in terms of finishing possessions by making these shots, they still somehow, thanks to the Jazz being terrible in a tanking team, they still went into the halftime locker room feeling pretty good about themselves because they just said to themselves, hey, like if we shoot the way that we normally shoot, if this thing evens out the way that it probably should, if we continue to get the same looks,
that we got in the first half, like the law of averages says that we’re going to make those in the second half. And guess what happened in the second half? They started making those.
Ethan Sands (04:19.345)
Chris, I think that’s exactly what came to mind for me when it comes to the shooting efficiency is that one, the Cavs were shooting just as bad, if not worse than the Utah Jazz in that first half when it comes to especially three point shooting. And we’ve talked about this at an abundance. They’re the best three point percentage shooting team in the NBA coming into tonight’s matchup. They shot 12 % from deep in the first half with 25 attempts.
The Utah Jazz were 6 of 27 for 22.2 % in that first half. Right? So we talk a lot about how this Cavs team, and when I said come back earlier, I meant come back to their senses, like come back to being themselves. This is a game where the Utah Jazz only led by 30 for 39 seconds and their biggest lead was two points. So it wasn’t saying the Cavs were coming back from a deficit.
Chris (05:03.629)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (05:15.085)
It’s more like they had to snap back into being who they are. And shooting is a big part of that. And over this last four game losing streak before today, we saw that their shooting numbers had dropped a lot, and especially in the month of March as a whole. The biggest thing when we talk about the switch, not only in the shooting efficiency into the second half, which is funny because we talked all of the beginning of the season, like they can’t keep getting away with this. They’re shooting over their heads. This is crazy. This is nuts. And then they kept doing it.
And then they kind of come back into March and we’ve talked about it. Chris, you mentioned it as a hellish March month of the schedule. I mean, they played like a normal basketball team rather than the best in the NBA. And everybody was like, my God, this team is not going to be able to get back to the level that they played at. Sure. Again, pump the brakes. It’s the Utah Jazz. They got Portland in a couple of days. We’ll see another test, even though it is the Portland.
trailblazers who aren’t good either. But I feel like what was most important in hearing in post-game press conferences was Kenny Atkinson talking about the guy that I call Joy Boy, Darius Garland. Basically the same guy that had his joy taken away from him last season due to the fractured jaw, which Chris chronicled, all of what Darius Garland said at the beginning of the season, getting his joy back and him saying basically,
Chris (06:27.211)
Anyway.
Ethan Sands (06:42.543)
We need to just have fun. It is a kids game. We haven’t had fun in the last four days. And Chris, I’m gonna let you get into the pregame notions that you have based on what happened before the game with the one practice day that they had. But it feels like they have been trying to get back to that fun element, get back into the team that they are, which is surrounded by joy, the power of friendship, might say. But Chris, what led to Darius saying this and what led
to team being able to get back into the joy of playing a kids game and having that kind of fun on the floor.
Chris (07:20.13)
I think my biggest takeaway, Ethan, was the fact that the Cavs understand who they are and they understand what they’ve already accomplished to this point. They are the best team in the Eastern Conference. They have the best record in the Eastern Conference. They have the second best record in the entire NBA. Overreacting to a bad week of basketball for that team that has accomplished that.
that would show a level of fragility that they haven’t shown throughout the course of this year. That would show a level of vulnerability that I would think would be problematic for them going into the postseason. So to me, the thing that stood out, and look, this was the jazz and everybody knows Utah sucks. The guys that they’re playing out there, they have to play to some degree because their former first round picks.
And they’ve got to get a look at them and it’s not solely about winning basketball games for the jazz at this point. They’ve got the second worst record in the NBA for a reason. But.
The Cavs stayed true to themselves in the face of the greatest adversity that they’ve seen this year. And it sounds really weird to say that because it was a four game losing streak and that’s it. And at the end of the day, they’re still almost already at the 60 win mark. But that’s the thing that Kenny has brought here. It’s a level of understanding of who these guys are, what they are, and who they want to be.
And I talked privately with Donovan Mitchell after the game, right outside the locker room. I talked privately with Kenny Atkinson right outside the locker room. I talked to Darius Garland. I talked to all these different guys just about maintaining who they are and what their identity is in the face of their greatest adversity throughout the course of this season. And I think it’s pretty, telling that
Chris (09:18.796)
you know, when they were faced with a four game losing skid, they didn’t go away from what has made them them. And what has made them them is this, this loose environment, the fun that they have, the joy that they play with. Ty Jerome calls it swag. If you want to go that far, you can call it a swag that they play with and all that kind of stuff. And I think it would have been more alarming to me as I was walking back.
from the arena going to my dinner spot. Like I was trying to think of what direction I was going to go with my post-game follow-up. And I think the thing that stands out to me is it would have been more alarming for them this late into the season with the playoffs fast approaching to like change who they are and do something drastic in the face of this adversity. And for them,
They haven’t practiced in nearly two weeks. The last time they practiced was on the campus of Vanderbilt. That was a scheduled practice because there was a little bit of a break in the schedule. But for them, if they would have thrown in like this long, hard, grueling practice session in the middle of their longest road trip of the season that covers five cities in 10 days.
multiple time zones, a couple of back to backs, a three and four night stretch. And this game against Utah, which was almost the equivalent of a back to back because they landed here in Utah around like seven o’clock, then lost an hour and had to get up for an afternoon game on a Sunday. Practicing in the face of that would have been coaching malpractice.
Especially when you’ve got the best team in the Eastern Conference and one of the best teams in the end like that would have been a case of Kenny Atkinson overreacting and not treating this team as the team that it has become and that’s not to say that during this losing streak that they were doing everything right and that they didn’t have things that they had to work on and they didn’t have things that they had to work through but it was just a recognition of
Chris (11:39.392)
that would have been a drastic change from what we’ve done all season and what we’ve grown accustomed to. Because I talked to Ty Jerome after the game and I said, like, you know, what does it say that on the off day in the face of a four game losing skid, you guys played horse? And then after doing that, like you validated Kenny’s decision that that he made in conjunction with the leadership council of this team.
You validated that decision by winning a game and snapping losing streak. And he was like, that’s, that’s what we’ve done all year. That’s who we’ve been all year. And I think staying true to yourself is really, really important. And I think all of the guys appreciated the approach that Kenny took. I think the leaders made the right decision and they didn’t overreact to a four game losing streak because they had no reason to overreact to it.
Ethan Sands (12:39.245)
Chris, it’s almost like this is kind of the formula for these winning championship teams, right? Not only having a rough march, which we’ve seen historically has been the case for some of the best teams that we’ve seen, but also the fact that they don’t get too caught up in the wins and the losses, right? Because this team understands where they are. They understand who they are.
Chris (13:02.029)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (13:06.223)
The identity of this team is what they had to get back to on the floor, rebounding, playing with pace, shooting, not necessarily being selfish, but more so getting other people around you and taking not the best shot, but a great shot. And I think that’s something that we got to see today, especially with the lack of defense that Utah simply plays. They were ranked second worst in the NBA coming into tonight in defensive rating. And obviously we also talk about how they were without two of their biggest
rebounding assets with John Collins and Lowry Markkinen being out the game. And they had to lean on Walker Kessler and don’t give Walker Kessler any grief because he gives the Cavs some problems sometimes throughout this season and throughout history. We’ve seen it last year as well. I mean, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley simply turned it on to a different level in the second half. There was a point where Walker Kessler had the same amount of rebounds as the entire Cavs team. was 7-7. So like
early on into the game. But I think this Cavs team, which has been known to come out slow in the second half, I think it was also a big telltale sign that the third quarter is when they took a different leap and took a different step against the Utah Jazz. Again, it’s the Jazz. We’re not making a big deal. But I still think that the conversations, the tough conversations that these guys are able to have with one another are huge going into the playoffs and will help them.
when they get down the stretch into these tougher environments.
Chris (14:38.67)
All right, so remember last year, right around Easter, it’s the beginning of a West Coast trip. The Cavs get completely embarrassed against the Denver Nuggets. And that’s like how the tone of that road trip was set with like a team that looked completely overwhelmed and completely overmatched. And then after that game, Donovan Mitchell is pissed. You can tell.
And he goes in front of the cameras, in front of the reporters, and he says, it’s effing April. Like basically alluding to the fact of these things that we have struggled with all season long are still here. And it’s April. And the playoffs are right around the corner. So I asked Donovan after the game tonight, right outside the locker room, I said, do you remember saying that in Denver? And he said, yes.
I do. And I said, okay, like, why was that your approach then? And then why did you take a different approach in the face of this four game losing streak? And he said, Chris, because we’re not the same team and because we’ve already shown how great we can be. Like we have already shown the level that is required for us to be a championship level team. And he said, last year we didn’t show that.
Like last year we were still striving to try and become that team. Last year we were trying to figure out how to become that team and what kinds of things we had to do to become that team. And there was like legitimate wonder inside that locker room of whether they could even get to that point. And I think rightfully so. But because they have already done so many great things throughout the course of this year,
They didn’t want like a four game losing skid, no matter what time of year it was, to overshadow or overtake all of those things. And that’s what Donovan was saying to me after the game tonight is he said it was a very, very different situation last year. And I feel like I needed to set a different kind of tone, especially after that game.
Chris (17:00.864)
against Denver that the way that we were playing consistently throughout the course of the year just, just wasn’t going to be good enough. And we had to do different things in order to become a different caliber team. And that never happened. The Cavs never got to that point, but he already feels like they showed that so far this year that they’ve already taken steps to become that they’re already.
putting in these championship habits and they have this playoff focus and all that kind of stuff. And I think with him saying it that kind of way, it really, really resonated with me. And I think at some point Kenny Atkinson recognized, and I think people have to recognize that even though this team hasn’t won a championship and even though there are legitimate questions about can they beat Boston,
in a seven game series, this is a championship level team. And they deserve to be treated and looked at as such, because they have proven that over the course of this season. And looking at them a different kind of way, simply because of a four game losing streak, would have been ridiculous.
Ethan Sands (18:21.733)
And I think that’s a great point. And to piggyback off of that, I noticed the other day, or I think it was yesterday that Draymond Green somehow has jumped Evan Mobley in some defensive player of the year odds. And I understand that the Cavs defense, whether you want to look at January, whether you want to look at March has been questionable. And yes, we did talk about Evan Mobley getting attacked in some of the matchups earlier into this.
Chris (18:34.766)
you
Ethan Sands (18:50.737)
road trip with the Clippers, with Sacramento. But the difference is not everybody has a Demar DeRozan, not everybody has a Kawhi Leonard, not everybody has James Harden, right? And the funniest part to me is that I know you’re not thinking this way, Chris, but there are clearly people, clearly statistics that are pointing towards Draymond Green jumping Evan Mobley in this conversation over a five, four game stretch, whatever you want to call it, when
Chris (19:20.172)
Well... Hold on. Hold on.
Ethan Sands (19:21.393)
That’s what the numbers are saying. That’s what the numbers are saying.
Chris (19:26.958)
But it hasn’t been a five game stretch. It hasn’t. It’s been a level that Draymond has played to throughout the course of the season and it’s become more magnified at this point in time because Golden State has been one of the best teams in the NBA over the last month or so because Golden State’s defensive rating has maintained itself in the top 10. So it’s like Draymond was doing these things and Draymond was making
a huge impact defensively. And his defensive numbers have been great all season long. His impact metrics on the defensive end of the floor have been great all season long. So it’s not just like Draymond has become this caliber defender over the last 16, 17 games. He’s been that. It’s just like the level that Golden State has played to has increased.
The level that their defense has played to has increased and that is giving him more of a platform. And it’s also showing a level of consistency and his impact on that is something that you can’t debate. Like if you have a significant impact and you’re playing extremely well defensively on a team that is borderline lottery, you’re not going to get the same level of recognition and you shouldn’t.
because there are legitimate questions about how are you impacting winning? How much are you really impacting that defensive end of the floor if it’s not leading to wins and stuff like that? So with Draymond maintaining the same level that he has all season long and Golden State catching up to that, it just puts him in a different kind of light. I’m not saying that he should be in front of Evan at this point in time, but throughout the course of the season,
Like there are impact metrics that say Draymond has been one of the best defenders from game one all the way to now. And now you have the team stats that help back that up as well.
Ethan Sands (21:33.585)
The team stats that I’m looking at currently, the Cavs are 8th in defensive rating, 111.4. Golden State is 7th, 111.2. then when you look at the, obviously, those are not the only statistics that we’re talking about, but Evan Mobley has a defensive rating of 107.7, and Draymond Green has a defensive rating of 109.3. And again,
I’m not saying that Draymond Green isn’t a great defender, is not an impactful defender. I’m saying that because the Cavs have played to a lower standard, I don’t think that should negate all of what Evan Mobley has done over the previous 60 games. So we’re talking about Evan Mobley who’s played in a significant amount of games this season, 63, but Draymond’s only played 57.
55 games starts I believe and these are numbers that are fluctuating and gonna continue throughout the season My thing is is Draymond even gonna be eligible for this award based on his his Games played right 57 games. There’s a He’ll get 10 games left, right? He’ll get the eight games that he needs so he’ll more than likely be eligible but what I’m saying is is that Evan Mobley’s
Chris (22:49.549)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (22:57.669)
defensive status shouldn’t change as much as it feels like it had or Draymond shouldn’t have jumped as much as feel like he did just because of a five game stretch for the Cavs or a month long stretch for the Cavs when the majority of the season, even though they’ve continuously been in the top 10 of the defense, defensive team, I just think it might be a little much to say that Draymond is coming to take that spot in a season where it feels like Evan Mobley
has been in the conversation for the majority of the year while Draymond has jumped into that conversation in like the last, say, month.
Chris (23:38.666)
to winning back
Chris (23:46.872)
your win game playing as well if you’re going through whatever slump is if you’re more points on the defensive end of the floor and of windshare metric is going to be different your defensive box metric is
Ethan Sands (23:55.803)
The other thing that I wanted to touch on when it comes to this conversation is the actuality of how the Cavs have played over the last month, right? But we’ve touched on the statistics, we’ve touched on the numbers when it comes to the shooting efficiency, shooting percentages, and Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell have admitted that they needed to be better. And it felt like they had that opportunity as a prime for today’s game against Utah Jazz, but they played decent.
Chris (24:05.565)
metric.
these different things.
Chris (24:12.618)
as a player.
Ethan Sands (24:24.177)
I don’t think it’s to the standard that they would have wanted either. Donovan Mitchell finished with 16 points. He was five of 13 from the field, 38.5%. Darius had 12 points. He was four of 13 from the field. Donovan was 0.05 from deep. Darius was two of eight from deep. The biggest thing when it comes to the game today, which I was surprised by, was Darius is rebounding. He had seven rebounds in tonight’s contest. And they also both had four.
assist a piece. Darius had two turnovers and Donovan had one turnover. But when you talk about these two guys who are obviously the head of the snake for this team in the offensive, pushers, runners, all these things, I think you would want to see them, especially against a lackluster defense in the Utah Jazz, play to a higher standard, play to a higher level, even if it means taking more shots or taking more opportunities that are given to them.
But what I did like is that when they figured out that it wasn’t their night, they did get off the ball and allowed for the teammates around them to do their thing. Allen took 11 shots. That’s not usual for him. He had 18 points. Deandre Hunter had 10 shots. He made, he had 15 points. Ty Jerome, six shots. Mobley, 10 shots. Feel like he could have got more. Sam Merrill, nine shots. That’s too many, Sam Merrill. But I’m glad you’re taking them, right? So there’s.
Chris (25:41.837)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (25:50.639)
different schemes and different things that we talk about for each player, what you’re supposed to be doing, what can be too much, what can be too little. So I definitely think in these situations, especially when you talk about these starters didn’t play for a majority of the fourth quarter or the fourth quarter at all, that it makes sense that some of these rotation players have more shots. just think in bigger picture, Darius and Donovan has to be great, not just good.
when the playoffs come around and they need to get back on track because we know this last month has been hard for them.
Chris (26:25.474)
Yeah, I don’t know what to make of the whole Darius thing. I would think at some point there has to be a level of concern because, know, Ethan, when you talked about last year with the calves and with Darius and his struggles, when there’s something logical that points to why something could be happening, then, you know, it’s easier to understand.
And it was easier to process Darius’s last year struggles because of all of the different factors that were going on. Those things aren’t going on right now with Darius and in the level that he’s played to in March is very, very similar to the way that he played last year for the Cavs where he called it one of the toughest seasons, one of the toughest years of his entire career.
But there isn’t an injury thing. There isn’t.
I mean, there isn’t anything going on from a personal standpoint. so I don’t know. Like I don’t know what to make of these struggles with Darius. and that that’s a tough place to be in because like on one end you could sit there and you can say, well, you know, everybody is entitled to one of these kinds of stretches. Everybody goes through shooting slumps at various points throughout the course of the year.
And Darius was due for one. and if you feel like it’s happening right now, then he’s able to get it out of the way and he’s able to find himself toward the end of the season, going into the postseason. Yeah, I guess you could certainly say that, but, I think it just comes down to this. If, the Cavs are going to be an elite team, if they’re going to be an elite offense, Darius has got to be better. He’s got to be better than what he’s been since the All-Star break.
Chris (28:27.758)
And the same thing goes for Donovan Mitchell. And I just don’t think you can assume, just because Darius was good at the beginning of the year, playing at an all-star level at the beginning of the year, I don’t think you can just assume that you can snap your fingers and then all of a sudden it comes back. You know what I mean? Like he’s got to start finding it to a different kind of level than what he has shown. I mean, the first half tonight for Darius was...
Some of these shots just weren’t even close. I mean, I think from a positive standpoint, Ethan is, he’s still getting to his spots. He’s still beating guys off the dribble. He’s still able to create space and create separation. And if he’s not doing it on the ball, he’s able to create movement off the ball and they can use him in a variety of ways. But man.
The way that he has played in March, like that is just not going to be good enough in a playoff environment when you’re starting to talk about, you know, the margin for error for the Cavs shrinking series by series by series. he doesn’t seem worried about it right now. His teammates don’t seem concerned about it. The organization doesn’t seem concerned about it, but it’s just, it’s harder to explain this.
this month of March than it was to explain last year. As weird as that sounds, it is harder to explain what’s going on right now with Darius than it was last year.
Ethan Sands (30:07.633)
100%. And this is against teams that aren’t necessarily hunting him or not necessarily guarding him full court or all of these things that we know are going to happen in the playoffs, right? There’s going to be a different level of intensity and different caliber of opponent. Not the Utah Jazz, that’s for sure. So I definitely think it’s something to monitor when it comes to Darius. And we’ve been seeing it all month with him and Donovan. And it’s something that
You don’t as a fan want to get worried about, but when they go and play against New York in a couple of weeks, you’re going to see if Jaylen Brunson is back, if OGN and OB is there, if Josh Hart is back, if all of these players are going to be able to put their test on Darius Garland to see how he’s got affair, how he’s different from last year. And the last thing I’m going to say is we talked about this team being one that could separate him from
Everybody else in a different light when it comes to 50-40-90, he’s ruined those chances. And it’s more likely that Ty Jerome is gonna be the 50-40-90 guy for the Cavs this season than Darius Garland. But Ty Jerome is also shooting 86.5 % from the free throw line right now. So he’ll need a lot of more attempts at the charity stripe to get back on that. But.
Chris (31:11.666)
yeah.
Ethan Sands (31:30.149)
But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can send in your questions for this week’s episode for a Hey Chris Podcast. Sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit cleveland.com slash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine.
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