CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ recent win over the Los Angeles Clippers and details behind the Cleveland’s 60th win of the season for just the third time in franchise history.
How to watch the Cavs: See how to watch the Cavs games with this handy game-by-game TV schedule.
Takeaways:
Cavs are focused on securing first place in the Eastern Conference.
Winning games is not the sole focus for the Cavs.
Kenny Atkinson emphasizes the importance of process over results.
The Cavs’ performance in March does not predict playoff success.
Leadership is hard to quantify but is crucial for team success.
Donovan Mitchell elevates his teammates through his actions.
The importance of physicality and competitive level in games.
Cavs are working on maintaining their turnovers and possession game.
Empowerment of players like Evan Mobley is essential for growth.
Winning and losing are contagious in the NBA. Draymond Green’s vocal advocacy has influenced his Defensive Player of the Year odds.
Team success is crucial for individual award considerations in the NBA.
Evan Mobley’s defensive presence significantly alters opponents’ shot attempts.
Jared Allen’s efficiency is noteworthy, contributing to the Cavs’ success.
The Cavs are strategically managing player minutes as they approach the playoffs.
Injury management is a priority for the Cavs to ensure player availability in crucial games.
The importance of individual player presence cannot be quantified easily but is impactful.
The conversation highlights the balance between resting players and preparing them for playoffs.
Cleveland Cavaliers’ depth allows for more strategic player management.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we are coming to you guys after the Cavs’ latest win, 127-122 over the Los Angeles Clippers. And guys, the Cavs have won 60 games for just the third time in franchise history. But
Again, the Cavs do not care about their record, but they did admit one thing tonight that I think was circulating throughout the air for a couple of weeks now, and that is that they do want to lock up first place in the Eastern Conference. They know how significant that would be for them in the playoffs to have home court advantage throughout the entire Eastern Conference playoffs. And also the fact that they are just seven wins away.
from breaking the record for wins in a season in franchise history. They did not say that they were worried about that record. They’re more so worried about securing first in the Eastern Conference. Chris, what do you think this win says about the Cleveland Cavaliers and what did you take away from the game?
Chris (01:22.388)
I think people are conflating things when it comes to the Cavs at this point in time and it’s hard because you know fans don’t like to hear and I feel like I’m saying the same thing that I’ve been saying for the last two weeks but fans don’t like to hear that a team isn’t solely focused on winning the game but the Cavs aren’t solely focused on winning games they’re just not going all out going into a mode of win at all cost and it’s like yeah
They want the number one seed, but they’re not going to abandon all of the other things that they believe are most important for them down the stretch of the season to get that number one seed. And Kenny Atkinson has said for the last two weeks, I feel like maybe I should be worried more about the number one seed. Maybe I should care more about the number one seed.
But I’m focused on the process. I’m focused on playing right. I’m focused on getting healthy. I’m focused on making sure that our guys are in the best condition possible going into the playoffs so that we can take a real run at this thing. And if the number one seed comes as a result of that, and if you play the right way for a majority of the game, chances are a win is going to come from that. And the number one seed is going to come from that. But it’s just hard for people to accept.
that the Cavs’ sole focus right now and down the stretch of the season is not on the outcome of the game. It’s not on winning. It’s not on piling up a bunch of wins going into the playoffs so that they feel really good about themselves and they quote unquote have momentum going into the playoffs or they’re quote unquote firing on all cylinders going into the playoffs. That stuff doesn’t exist. It does not exist.
Once the playoff starts, it’s a completely different game. It’s zero zero. And you just want to be able to be in the best position possible to make a deep playoff run. And I agree that the number one seed would help and home court advantage would help and stuff like that. But the Cavs aren’t gunning for that. They’re not saying to themselves like, my God, we’ve got to get back right. We’ve got to end this four game losing streak on the West coast because Boston is gaining on us.
Chris (03:40.386)
for first place in the Eastern Conference. my God, we can’t have a four game losing streak at this time of year because that’s going to cripple our chances going into the playoffs. That doesn’t exist in this locker room. That doesn’t exist in the NBA to the point that the Cavs and Kenny Atkinson have done studies on a bunch of teams and how they played in the final weeks of the regular season going into the playoffs.
and what that meant to those teams and their success in the playoffs. They looked at past Cavs teams, they looked at past Golden State Warriors teams, they looked at past Milwaukee Bucks teams, they looked at past Denver Nuggets teams, just to kind of get a feel for that and whether that’s a real thing. And what they realized was it’s not a real thing. It’s not predictive of playoff success. So I think a lot of people are conflating things.
But the one thing that I’ll say about today’s game against the Clippers is, you know, for a majority of the game, there was a level of focus, a level of attention to detail, a level of physicality, a level of purpose to the way that they were playing that was a little bit different than what it’s been for the last couple of weeks.
Jimmy Watkins (05:03.498)
So I think two things can be true here. The Cavs are right. This has been a Tom Haverstrow thing for years. The first 10 games of a season are as predictive, if not more so, than the last 10 games of a season. get so much, I feel like people, because people start watching basketball after football season ends, we have a recency bias thing happening here where
what’s in front of you doesn’t match what you’ve been told about the Cavs when maybe you were busier with other things and you want to watch this is a casual thing. Obviously, I think a lot of people that listen to this podcast are there for most of the games and have been here for the entire ride. I think these conversations can get started from a lot of different corners of the internet, the media, et cetera. And we get, I do think it is a problem that some of these March games don’t mean anything for the NBA.
a bigger picture, bigger picture topic that we can tackle another day. This idea that I think it makes sense that you should want to be playing your best basketball in March, the season is so long that everyone’s so worn down at this point in the season that that’s not usually how it works. And we get these weird results that make us question what we’ve been seeing the whole year, some of the time. So it’s not that big of a deal.
It’s also really easy to say that when you do have the number, it’s easy to say I don’t care about the number one seed when I have the number one seed locked up, essentially. Throughout all of this, as shaky as the calves have looked at points, Celtic’s even gotten within four games. don’t know, I haven’t been checking the standings every day because this thing, okay, I haven’t been checking the standings because it hasn’t.
Chris (06:45.676)
Yeah, coming into today, they were within four. It was the closest that they’ve been. It was the close- coming into today’s game, it was the closest that the Celtics have been since December 28th.
Jimmy Watkins (06:53.153)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (06:57.324)
So even then though, three and a half games with eight games to play. That is a commanding lead. That is a commanding lead. It was never a real sweat for the Cavs. So again, really easy to say that when it’s not actually, you’re not actually in danger of losing your place in the pedestal. But the other thing, I think that the Cavs are talking a little bit on both sides of their mouth here because I believe them and agree with them.
Chris (07:04.28)
Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (07:25.558)
they shouldn’t be putting all their energy into playing really good regular season basketball heading into the playoffs. that it’s, understood they’re showing us, resting guys every other night, seems like this time of year that that’s not where their priorities are. At the same time, they kind of went for it today. They kind of went for it today. And I think that is, they did that for a couple of reasons. I really do think that the first Clippers lost with the bad taste in their mouth, the way they got absolutely.
destroyed on the glass, let the bad taste in their mouth. was Kenny’s big pregame speech, right? That was Kenny’s big pregame speech today where Donovan said, Kenny threw a water bottle and reminded Donovan of Rick Pitino in his college days a little bit there. I think that’s part of it. But I also think Kenny said something to the effect of like, yeah, it was the schedule. Yeah, it’s that weird time of year, but we were, you know, he thought there was something a little bit more to what was going on here. The cap’s for whatever you want to ascribe it to.
Chris (07:56.782)
question around.
Jimmy Watkins (08:23.872)
The Cavs have not been a great basketball team for about 15 games now. And that’s, you do want to, every now and again, remind yourself that you can do it. You know what I mean? So I think I hear what they’re saying and I agree with what they’re saying when they say, we’re not that worried about it. At the same time, you know, you say, look at some of these minutes, I remember we played 37 ish minutes in this game. I’m a veteran player, 37 ish minutes. They went for it in this game. Kenny called it a playoff game.
He talked about how badly he wanted to win this particular game. I think they’re, again, they’re right, but they’re also trying to tell us that they did see something concerning in this last little blip here.
Chris (09:08.118)
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a different conversation though. Like that’s not about solely winning the basketball game. That’s about playing the right way. That’s about doing the things that you think are going to matter when the postseason rolls around more. And I think that’s what Kenny was a little bit concerned about. I think that’s what some of the players in the locker room were talking about. It was how they were playing. It’s not the fact that they were losing games. It’s not the fact that they had lost four in a row.
It was how they were losing those games. It’s how they were playing. It’s some of the bad habits that were starting to pop up. It was some of the common threads within those losses and stuff like that. And Kenny even said, following the game today, that, you know, our process was so good that even if we would have lost this game, I would have felt good about how we played and how we performed and the things that we did today against the Clippers. Because the things that we did today against the Clippers,
those things will be good enough in the playoffs. Those things will help us in the playoffs and stuff like that. So I don’t think it’s solely like everything results based with this team right now. It’s not, and I don’t think it has been for a long, long time. But the how and the why have always mattered. The how and the why will always matter to this team, especially for a guy like Kenny.
who is very, very into that sort of thing.
Ethan Sands (10:37.425)
Yeah, Donovan in his post game mentioned that he feels like they got away from their focus, right? And that’s why over the last couple of games, he’s played how he has, right? More intense. And the word that Kenny Atkinson wanted to use, and I think he’s heard a lot of the fodder from fans, NBA executives, opposing coaches talking about physicality. Kenny said he doesn’t want to use that word, right? Because he understands that that was something.
Chris (10:59.502)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (11:03.857)
coming into the season that was a narrative that the Cavs had to get away from, right? Or try and break. And instead he said, it’s not physicality, it’s competitive level. It’s hitting first, it’s being the first to the ball, attacking first, all these different things that allow this Cavs team to be different. And I think that is what the Cavs mindset was against Zubaj earlier today, right? We had to see Evan Mobley wasn’t looking for
when Zubach was gonna go up for the rebound, he just said, I’m gonna sky higher than you and go get it myself, right? Jared Allen said, I’m gonna box you out before the ball is even shot. I’m gonna move you out of the way and go get the ball. And I think those are important elements to what we’re talking about because Chris, you’re absolutely right. The how and the why is important to this team. And that’s also part of the reason that Kenny Atkinson said that it was a psychological reason that he felt like this Cavs team needed to win this game. It was a reason for
getting back to the rebounding, getting back in a way from turning the ball over as much as they had in this recent stretch because they’ve been a good team all year when it comes to maintaining their turnovers, limiting their turnovers. But over the last week and a half, the last stretch that they’ve had, it’s been bad and they’ve given up open possessions. And that’s been something that Kenny Atkinson has preached all season long, especially when talking about the playoffs is needing to win the possessions game.
because if you’re giving opponents more opportunities, one that’s more opportunities at the rim, especially if you’re a Zubot and you get the board and you’re going right up with it. And then we’re also playing the numbers game where if you have an opposing team that’s going to put up more three point shots, that’s going to be dangerous for them as well. Again, thinking about Boston, Kristof Porzingis, Jason Tatum, Jaylen Brown, guys that get on the boards and use their bodies in different ways as well. But
That kind of gets into the next thing that I wanted to talk about when it comes to the leadership aspect of this team. We talked about Donovan Mitchell has been able to know exactly what the team needs at any given moment of the season. Today it was basically, Hey, I’m going, or it’s been this way for a couple of games now, but today, especially it felt to close the game out. I am going to sacrifice my body for this team. don’t care if it’s March, April, whatever I’m banged up.
Ethan Sands (13:27.601)
yada yada yada, I’m going to go into the stands to save a ball to end the game. I’m going to dive on the floor and wrestle the ball away and be a defensive menace. I’m going to rebound. I’m going to have the same rebound as Jared Allen, 12 boards. And you can see him just going up and even the ones that he didn’t get credited for, cause he’s tipping out. I think that’s extremely important.
Chris (13:34.902)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (13:51.217)
to Donovan and Chris, you’ve been around Donovan for a few years now. You’ve also gotten to know him over his NBA career. For him to have these kinds of moments and just be there for his teammates would also be the leader showing rather than saying, how important is that for a guy that’s led a team vocally for a lot of the year, but now he’s doing things and showing things that also help his merit.
Chris (14:20.258)
The hardest thing is I don’t know how to quantify leadership. I don’t know. And that’s one of the greatest things that Donovan has. And I guess the only thing that you can say is every year that Donovan has been in the NBA, he has taken his team to the playoffs. And like, yeah, you can sit here and you can say, well, he’s been on really good team and he’s had talented players and he’s had good coaches and all that kind of stuff.
but he is the kind of guy who elevates everybody around him. And I don’t know how you quantify that. And it’s so funny because I’ve been having a lot of conversations with a lot of different writers as I travel around the country and they ask me, should I have Donovan top five in my MVP voting? Like what’s the argument for Donovan to be on my MVP vote? And the first thing that I say is that.
Like they aren’t the team that they are right now, the best team in the Eastern Conference, the second best record in the NBA, the third Cavs iteration to win 60 games. They aren’t this team without Donovan and the little things that he does throughout the course of the season. And I think the greatest thing that you can say about Donovan is that he has found different ways to do it throughout his Cavs tenure and throughout the course of this season.
Donovan could be top five in the NBA in scoring every single year. He is that talented. He could hunt shots. He could want a high usage rating. He could do like all these different things.
But he understands that there are other ways that he can impact winning and there are other ways that he can impact this team. And I think his willingness to empower Evan Mobley, I think his willingness to empower Darius Garland, I think his willingness to at times take a step back and try and fill in the gaps and be able to do that. Like not everybody can do that.
Chris (16:14.624)
And Donovan can do that and Donovan has had a willingness to do that. And the Cavs as an organization and the Cavs as a team have benefited greatly from that.
Jimmy Watkins (16:27.626)
So from a basketball perspective, that point that Chris just made, fill in the gaps. Donovan Mitchell is so good at basketball that he can pick and choose where he wants to be good. Right? We talked about this a little bit before, Ethan, right? Like Donovan’s comment the other day about it’s boring to make the right play over and over again, right? Like that’s not, that’s a hard thing for a normie person to comprehend. He’s so good that he can get whatever shot he wants.
So for him to just pass the ball, open man is like, guess, I guess, right? That’s like a very uniquely superstar challenge. Him today saying, I’m just gonna get 12 rebounds and then it happens, right? Like he didn’t literally say that, but he decided I’m gonna put my focus on rebounding and look what happens when he does it. Also four steals by the way. Like he’s just all over the place in that regard. From the harder to quantify the leadership thing that Chris is talking about.
NBA is a uniquely hierarchy based league. Everything flows from the superstar. I’m thinking about something Tristan Thompson set up with the Luka Doncic trade. I forget what we were even talking about, but he was talking about that the Mavericks were playing club, Euro club music during timeouts at their games. And that’s obviously the kind of music that Luka Doncic.
Chris (17:49.976)
Yep, that’s right.
Jimmy Watkins (17:55.338)
likes when you go to a Cavs game, you hear lot of Jay-Z and Drake. Who do you think Don Mitchell is playing in his headphones? Most times. I have a guess. I have a guess or two. It’s just everything in this sport is built around the best player and every one of his teammates notice that. So they will, even if subconsciously sometimes, I think some leadership is direct, some is indirect. Even if subconsciously you see a superstar doing something, you’re going to do it too.
Right? And this is, this is the case for Donovan, his first team all NBA, the case for Donovan as MVP ballot guy. Isn’t, you know, isn’t counting stats are down because he’s not playing as much as Cavs or smack and everybody. His efficiency has slipped a little bit, frankly, this back half of the season. Yeah. Um, so if you want, if you want to make, I’m sure there’s a statistical argument that you can make for, I have not locked in on this sort of stuff yet, but like.
Chris (18:40.14)
lately, yeah.
Jimmy Watkins (18:51.766)
Someone else, I’m not even gonna name a name, but there’s probably a statistical case you could make up for someone else. But this intangible stuff, particularly on a team that has made this kind of jump, particularly the way it’s happened, the Evan Mobley thing, the Evan Mobley thing. So today, there’s the, I’m sure it already went viral. The Cavs are all, Donovan Darius and Isaac are all pushing Evan during his interview to say, I’m defensive player of the year, blah, blah. An even smaller thing than that, I think.
is when Evan does interviews, Donovan will sometimes walk by and like cup his ear almost as if to say like, hey buddy, speak up. I can barely hear you. And it’s like bullying with love because confidence is all the time. the Cavs are trying to get Evan, Kenny talked about this before the game. He wants Evan to play with a little bit more, you know, he’s that kind of player. That’s the, he’s a really good player right now. And sometimes the separator is
is playing with some MF in you, some verb, a little bit more verb, and they’re pushing him to do that. And that’s just such a small example. Donovan just going, walking up to, while Evan’s speaking to him, go, hey, huh, what’d you say? What’d you say? And he’s encouraging him, use your voice, put yourself out there, be, like, carry yourself like a superstar, essentially, is what Donovan’s saying by doing some of these things like that.
Chris (20:05.528)
Hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (20:19.574)
And all those small things they add up, clearly it’s working forever. And this is why I’m so hard on guys like LaMelo Ball and Trey Young, because I believe that losing is just as contagious as winning, and it flows from the top down in the NBA. Donovan is proving that. And the positive, some of these other guys in the negative. You have a poor defensive culture? Let’s see how your superstar takes, seriously, your superstar takes defense. I bet you that’ll tell you a lot.
about what’s going on around it.
Chris (20:48.75)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (20:51.067)
And Jimmy, think that’s a great point. And you had a couple of little things that you’ve said that I think stuck out to me. When you talk about like music being played in the arena, one, that’s not just Donovan, right? It’s the core four has like their own playlist when they get like the Cavs and Rocket Arena generally have a DJ that is on the floor for pregame warmups. And then he’ll go upstairs for during the game. And
Darius will literally have conversations with the DJ on what song he wants to warm up to for that particular day, or he’ll have a playlist and he’s like, skip to this song, because I want to get to this. To the point where before a game the other day, well, a couple of weeks ago now because of the long road trip, sorry, Chris, but Darius was literally behind the DJ turn tiles and like doing the little like practice work, even though he was just messing around and had the headphones on and all these things.
Chris (21:38.51)
Thank
Ethan Sands (21:49.213)
The other thing is I had to make a little joke with Donovan because he did the Evan speak up from the back of the room. And I was like, Don, you realize that you talk quiet too. And he was like, what? I was like, yeah, yeah. We generally have to boost your audio to hear what you’re saying if we’re not literally in a room and it’s just you and us talking. And he was like, man, you’re supposed to tell me some of things like that. And I was like, I’m telling you now.
I’m telling you right now in this very moment. He was like, okay. I appreciate that. And I think it’s obviously Evan talked about it like in his press conference. Like don’t really want to say too much, but Darius was in the background literally like Draymond said on his podcast, he used his platform to get where he is in this, like in Christian. had this little debate about DPLY and obviously he was clear on who his vote was going to.
Chris (22:37.07)
We’re good.
Ethan Sands (22:48.505)
at this particular moment, waiting for the season to end to officially put those in. right, like, Draymond uses his platform. Evan doesn’t, right? Evan is more behind the scenes. He’s more quiet. He’s more laid back, and he wants his play to do the talking for him. And that’s fine, to a point, but Draymond was literally, like, not on the list for PlayerOz for DPOY.
Regardless of how good his season was he was not on the list at all star break and somehow now he’s first after Wemby was like has came off this list now you got Dyson Daniels he passed you got Nas Reed that he passed you got all of these guys that he had to pass because he went on a podcast and Said these things sure there are numbers to back up his defensive metrics all of these things Chris I know where you’re go after this, but I’m saying I think it is important to
for these guys to be empowered. And obviously Donovan Mitchell falls into that category, but I’m gonna let Chris rebuttal here before we get into our last topic of the podcast.
Chris (23:56.866)
It’s just funny because I had this same conversation with multiple Cavs players in the locker room after Portland because they were like, explain this to me. How did Draymond get to number one in defensive player of the year odds? And I said, first of all, like I have no say in that. So don’t look at me in that. And odds can be really, really funky, but you know, two things happen simultaneously and everybody seems to be jumping on the one thing and ignoring the other things. The one thing is yes.
He went on a podcast and he was very bombastic about him and his chances of winning Defensive Player of the Year and the reasons why he has a case. also used his post-game press conference to talk about those things as well. So two platforms that Draymond had, and he talked about his chances at Defensive Player of the Year and his candidacy for it and why he deserves.
why he deserves an opportunity to make his case and why he feels like his case is strong. But the other thing that happened at the same time is that Golden State rose up the standings. So like we have all these conversations all the time about, can we really give MVP to a guy on a team that doesn’t win? Can we really give defensive player of the year to a guy on a team that’s not going to be in the playoffs? Can we really give six man of the year?
to a guy who’s on a team that’s going to be headed to the lottery. Right? Like all of these coaches and all of these players in the NBA have been talking for the last couple of years about you guys have to value winning. You voters have to value winning and you have to put more of an emphasis on a team’s record and all those different things. Right? Well, when Golden State rises up the standings, the status quo changes. Because now all of a sudden,
you’re talking about a team that is top six in the Western Conference, and you’re talking about a guy for an individual award for a team that is now top six in the Western Conference, no longer number 10 in the Western. That changes the math. That changes the view, doesn’t it? Because now you’re talking about a guy and the impact that he has on a winning basketball. Around the All-Star Break Golden State set. Right?
Chris (26:18.188)
And like their record was not a reflection of Draymond and it wasn’t a reflection of Draymond as a defensive player of the year candidate. And it wasn’t a reflection of Draymond and the kind of impact that he had on Golden State’s defense. It’s just the team wasn’t good and you found it hard to make a case to give defense a player of the year or put that guy top three in defensive player of the year on a team that sucked. That looked like it was probably headed to the lottery.
They trade for Jimmy Butler and all of sudden the team starts winning and you start to feel Draymond’s impact on the defensive end floor a little bit more. You start to be able to quantify Draymond’s impact on the defensive end of the floor a little bit more. And it’s also backed up by winning, which is what a lot of these guys say they want us to value. What is, what does it mean if, you know, the sixth man of the year comes from a
18 win team. Like is that really an impact? So for Draymond, like yeah, part of it was him being really, really mouthy and him shining a light on his own resume in two separate platforms. And people are going to pay attention more when he uses his voice and he talks about that. And they’re like, Draymond says he has a case. Let me dig into the numbers. Holy crap, the numbers are really, really good. And they do support his case.
the other thing that happened, like I said, is that Golden State became a good team and it’s a lot easier to justify defensive player of the year on a top six team in the Western conference, as opposed to one who is just like a forgotten member of the play in tournament. And I, and I had to explain that to the players and like that, that doesn’t mean that Draymond should be the favorite. He should not be the favorite. Let me make that clear. He should not be the favorite. Evan Mobley should be the favorite.
Jimmy Watkins (28:02.636)
and the calves are sliding.
Chris (28:15.116)
When you’re top 20 in basically every meaningful statistical category, and you’re also part of a team that’s top 10 in defensive rating, and you also are one of the league leaders in blocks and you’re one of the league leaders in contested shots and all these different numbers that should matter. Like he, to me, should be the favorite. But like that’s part of the reason.
why Draymond, why his odds have changed as drastically as they have over the last three weeks because the Golden State Warriors have changed drastically over the last three weeks.
Jimmy Watkins (28:57.408)
the Cavs are sliding, recency bias, all that, I already made that point, but that’s, yeah. it should be known, it should be mentioned Draymond Green’s a generational defensive player and it would actually kind of be a travesty if he ends up retiring with only one defensive player of the year award on his resume. That’s not a reason to vote for him this year. I’m just saying it would be strange if that ends up happening. what else about Evans candidacy? Donovan’s, I was going to, I had this written down to top out on the pod and then Donovan spotlighted it after the game.
Chris (29:00.022)
Yeah, there’s a little bit of that.
Chris (29:07.214)
That’s right.
Jimmy Watkins (29:26.754)
So I’m going to bring it up now. There was a play today where Bogie Bogdanovich had what in most cases looks like a breakaway layup slash dunk. And I think against about 98 % of the league it would have been. And frankly, I think if he had just gone up with confidence against Evan, who was the only line of defense, I forget if he was trailing the player running with him or whatever. if he was, okay, if Bogie just goes up strong and decisively.
Chris (29:50.445)
He was trailing.
Jimmy Watkins (29:55.03)
he probably either scores or gets fouled. Like that’s just playing the percentages. That’s usually what happens in these situations. But because it was Evan, he hesitated and tried to pump, Evan didn’t go for it. Then I think he ended up blocking the shot. Like that to me is the final boss level of awesome defensive player dumb, know? Like Wemby got that pretty quickly. His first year, people were trying him at the rim and he was swatting everybody. Now,
Wemby is like the king of creating mash dribbles. Guys go to the rim, they go, crap, Wemby’s there, I need to dribble under the basket and go back to the three point line and figure it out. Evan Mobley is getting there. Well, he’s there, we saw it today on a fricking breakaway dunk and layup. When you start, the thing is, I think people, defensive player of the year, sometimes it gets overly simplistic and we’re just counting blocks and steals. Evan Mobley.
Chris (30:42.987)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (30:52.47)
There are so many shots that don’t even get attempted. That don’t even get attempted just because Evan Mobley exists out there and people are terrified to try him. And so there you go Donovan. He challenged the media after the game to do more legwork on the Evan Mobley Defensive Player of the Year campaign. So I want a Donovan Mitchell Cleveland.com subscription in return.
Chris (31:14.914)
And Evan brought that up the other night to me, following the game against Portland. He was like, yeah, I mean, like I’m a numbers guy and you know, you can pull up the numbers for yourself and stuff like that. But he was like, the things that the numbers do not show are how many guys just don’t attempt shots against me or when I’m in the vicinity. He’s like, that has to count for something. And that has to be part of my case because I asked Evan point blank. said, make your own case.
I’m giving you the platform, make your own case for defensive player of the year. And we all know he’s very quiet. He’s very reserved. He’s very humble. Even tonight when the guys were encouraging him to make his case, who should be defensive player of the year? He just said me for Evan Mobley. And it’s like, then he was like, anyways, back to your question. And then he also mentioned defense wins championships. So he’s not going to be as bombastic as Draymond. It’s just not going to happen.
So the other night when I was talking to him following the game against Portland, I said, okay, make your case for defensive player. Why should you be defensive player of the year? And he did say, Jimmy, like you brought up one of the things that, that isn’t quantified and it just doesn’t show up anywhere. And there’s no way to find it. Not on second spectrum, not on dunks and threes, not on basketball, nowhere. It’s how his presence affects every other team and how it affects every other player.
and it’s the guys who just won’t even attempt shots in his vicinity. It’s the amount of decisions that are different for a team on offense because he exists, because of his sheer presence. And I don’t know how you quantify presence. There is no way to do that. But his presence looms over a lot of stuff throughout the course of a 48-minute game. And that play with Bogie...
was something that resonated with me too. I was like, my God, he didn’t even attempt it. Like he tried, he looked over his shoulder and it was like a shadow was behind him. And he was like, my God, that’s not Max Struce. my God, that’s not Deandre Hunter. my God, that’s not Don, that is Evan Mobley. Like how can I try and get a shot off in this situation that he isn’t going to affect, that he isn’t going to block. And it’s like, he affected the shot just by his sheer presence.
Ethan Sands (33:38.095)
And the only player that I can really think of when it comes to like chase down blocks, when it comes to those kinds of situations where players would literally think about, okay, hell, no, is LeBron, right? And I’m sorry to continue to go back to this, but Jared Allen said after the game, like, this team is trying to separate itself from all of the records, all of the history that LeBron James has brought to the city of
Chris (33:48.814)
Okay
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (34:07.911)
Cleveland because he brought the lone championship that they have. And rightfully so. He’s not trying to, this team is not trying to take away from the success. They’re trying to create their own, create their own legacy, create their own history. And this is kind of my own segue into very briefly talking about how important Jared Allen has been for this team. and obviously tonight was another night where in the beginning of the game,
They knew that they had a size mismatch. They had a size advantage against this team and said, okay, Jared Allen go to work. He ended the game 11 of 12. He still is the best field goal percentage in the NBA. He has 25 points and not to mention 12 rebounds. And we talked about it a little bit earlier, but just the pure strength and will.
to able to go up against one of the best rebounders in the NBA currently in a week in a week, a dude, Zubach and understanding that Jared was the one walling off. Evan was the one jumping up in the air, trying to soar. Donovan Mitchell was coming out of nowhere. There were so many tip plays in this game that were started because Jared Allen simply had Zubach walled off from being able to either, he had two options, push Jared out the way or go above him and
One of two of those is a foul and the other one is very close. So he had to be very careful with the decisions he was making. And I think Jared Allen continuously needs to get more credit for what he’s been able to do on both ends of the ball. And Donovan also wanted to give him credit for being a guy that could chase down plays as well, even though he’s not in the same tier as Evan Mobley. And I think we can all agree on that when it comes to chase downs or just getting back on defense to.
the length that Evan Mobley has is completely different from any other player on this Cavs team. But, I wanted to get one last look from you guys, because I know we said we were going to get out of here quickly. The minutes increase of the starters tonight, I feel like could be a trend going forward that could help them in the end of the season in their last seven games.
Ethan Sands (36:24.221)
And I think that is something that the Cavs could look to do while still resting some guys when needed and we’ve talked about it Donovan Mitchell said he’s not necessarily Looking to ramp down He’s looking to ramp up and be ready to play those minutes and have his body ready and Conditioned to be at peak form in the playoffs and I think that has to do with him and Evan playing 36 tonight Darius played 32 Jared played 31
on top of the fact that they simply really wanted this game. Jimmy, you think that going up in minutes for the starters is a good idea for this Cavs team or what’s your take on that? And we’ll wrap up there.
Jimmy Watkins (37:06.07)
We’ve been talking about this for a little while now. Kenny’s alluded to it too. Phase one of get everyone’s body ready for the playoffs is take it easy on them, which is what they’ve been doing for 60 plus games now. Keep everyone’s minutes low, manage their load, rest them when they need to. It’s amazing that they’re able to have this record and it helps a lot that you’re able to have this record while you’re doing those things.
but that’s phase one of it. Phase two is, okay, now we’re gonna close the playoffs, let’s get you ready. Because as previously alluded to, when you get to big time playoff series, frankly, they can manage minutes in the first round of the playoffs, it’d be totally fine. Depending on the matchup, they might be able to do it in first two rounds. But once it gets time to play the Celtics essentially, like...
Donovan Mitchell’s minutes is as many as you can play. That’s the plan. As many as Donovan Mitchell can stand to play, that is how many minutes he will be playing. Evan Mobley, how many minutes are we gonna play in it? As many as you can play. That’s how this is gonna go. So they’re trying to get these guys ready for that. gotta pre, I’m not even close to a doctor, but I know that you need to condition, you need to get your body used to something if it’s gonna be something that, you can’t just ask the body to ramp up out of nowhere.
Chris (38:17.217)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (38:32.002)
Right? It has to be a slow and steady build. So that makes a lot of sense to me. We’re in a space where, I mean, towards the very end of the season, which is basically now, I guess, right? Because there’s eight games left. Seven games left? Seven games left. They’re going to just start taking nights off. Like, Chris, we talk about fan appreciation night. It’s be a great show for the JT Thor supporters among us, the Naquan Tomlin supporters among us.
Chris (38:50.36)
Yep.
Chris (39:00.428)
He’s not on the team anymore. He’s with the Washington Wizards.
Ethan Sands (39:02.001)
JT’s door’s not on the team, dude!
Jimmy Watkins (39:02.402)
Neyquan Tomlin, corrected myself. Neyquan Tomlin. I just corrected myself. My goodness. My goodness. That’s, there’s, it’s going to be a big showing for the end of bench two way G league type guys, right?
Ethan Sands (39:06.045)
JT, hold on, JT Thor is on the wizards. He’s eliminated already.
Chris (39:13.816)
That’s hilarious. Your point is made though.
Chris (39:24.908)
Yeah, for the Australian Jokic Luke Travers who is a walking triple double. Yes.
Jimmy Watkins (39:27.412)
That’s right, Luke Travers. Travers. Imani Bates, the people who have been clamoring for Imani Bates for two years, you’ll get to see him on fan appreciation night. I also just wanted to say real quick about J.A. The whole hummus with which we treat his 11 for 12 games, the Cavs had a Jumbotron stat the other day. Whoever’s running the Cavs Jumbotron stats, doing a darn good job. I learned some cool stuff every time. Every time I’m at the game. Jared Allen’s
could be about to become one of four players in NBA history to shoot 60 % in I think six straight seasons or something like that. I get it. His shot diet is mostly dunks and layups, but there’s a lot of rim running centers who get a steady diet of shots around the rim who don’t do that. Jared Allen is a wildly efficient offensive player.
And to Ethan’s point, just want to tip my cap to Jared Allen and JT Thor. We hope JT Thor is.
Chris (40:32.302)
So say this, I think when it comes to this whole workload conversation, it is very dependent on the player. And I think Kenny and the training staff is looking at every player individually and saying, okay, what is it that they need? What is it that’s going to be best for them? And I do think there are going to be rest nights coming up.
because there are going to be opportunities for that and because the Cavs want to continue down that path, there have already been some and that’s going to continue to happen. At the same time, like not everybody is going to get ramped up. In fact, I have been told that there are self-imposed minute restrictions that have not been revealed on certain players because they basically want them in bubble wrap.
before the playoffs roll around because they believe that it’s better to put them in bubble wrap than it is to ramp up their minutes. Look at Dean Wade and look at his minutes. The times that he has eclipsed 20 are very, very rare since the calendar flipped to March and you can sit here and you can say, well, the team is deep and they got a bunch of different guys that are playing that position. That is a self-imposed thing when it comes to Dean.
because they understand his importance. They especially understand his importance in a Boston series. And they do not want a repeat of what happened last year with Dean, where at the end of the season, he was out, he was dealing with an injury. He wasn’t physically in the position that he wanted to be in, that the team wanted him to be in, to be at his best to help out the team. And if you look at how they’re managing Dean Wade’s minutes,
That is a purposeful thing. Look at Deandre Hunter, by the way. Look at him in the last couple of fourth quarters. He has either not played in those fourth quarters or he’s gotten like two or three minutes. Deandre Hunter is somebody that they’re monitoring the workload of. Before Ty Jerome was shut down temporarily with this knee issue, which is now being classified as tendonitis, they are very cognizant of his workload.
Chris (42:50.7)
of his minute total. And it’s not a situation where like these guys have been run into the ground in the regular season and they need more time off or something like that, or they haven’t gotten the kind of rest throughout the course of the season, pockets of the season where they get these times off. It’s just the Cavs are able to behave a little bit differently.
because of the depth that they have, because of the cushion that they have in the Eastern Conference, because of a variety of reasons, because of everything that they’ve accomplished to this point in the regular season. So it’s just about taking advantage of the situation that they’re in and continuing to take advantage of that. And the more opportunities that you can get for rest, the more opportunities that you can get for in-game rest,
to keep the minutes down, keep the toll down, to keep the physicality down and off of these guys going into the playoffs depending on who it is. That’s something that the Cavs are going, Donovan is somebody who’s a little bit different. I think Donovan is the kind of guy who wants to be ramped up. He’s talked about this in the past. I Evan Mobley is the kind of guy who wants to be a little bit ramped up. So I think his minutes are going to be right around.
You know what they were today against the Clippers, but there are other guys That the Cavs I don’t want to say that they’re quote-unquote saving them for the postseason but they’re trying to be really really cognizant of Keeping them healthy and in good physical condition Going into the postseason and the two that I have heard the most in general conversations
are Dean Wade, well actually three that I’ve heard the most honestly, Max Druse, Dean Wade, and Deandre Hunter.
Ethan Sands (44:47.107)
And to your point, Chris, and I’ll end here, like it’s not just last year for Dean Wade, right? Two years ago when they played the Knicks, he played two games in that series, right? He has not been available when the Cavs have needed him most, point blank period, right? And we have, we have talked about this at length on different podcasts. So if you want to hear us yap about that, go there, but
Chris (44:59.18)
No.
Chris (45:05.622)
Yes.
Ethan Sands (45:14.117)
He is one of the most important pieces or was before they went and got the Andre Hunter and he simply has not been available. So for him to be available and be the Celtic killer that he has been monikered against the Boston Celtics in a potential Eastern conference final series, he needs to be healthy. The Andre Hunter is the same way. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the one and gold talk podcast. But remember,
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