CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins and Ashley Bastock discuss the Cavs’ playoff positioning, and the significance of winning a championship without LeBron James, comparing it to the 2016 title run.
How to watch the Cavs: See how to watch the Cavs games with this handy game-by-game TV schedule.
Takeaways:
The Cavs’ return to practice is crucial for routine.
Maintaining the number one seed is important for the Cavs.
A collapse in the standings would be significant for the team.
The Cavs have shown consistency throughout the season.
Home court advantage is vital for playoff success.
Kenny Atkinson plans to start with a 10-man rotation.
Playoff rotations typically shrink to focus on core players.
The Cavs’ depth can be an asset in the playoffs.
Key players need to be utilized effectively in tight games.
Spot minutes can still be impactful even for players outside the core rotation. Ty Jerome is a key player for the Cavs.
Bench players can significantly impact playoff games.
De’Andre Hunter’s playoff experience is limited.
Regular season depth differs from playoff depth.
Max Strus is likely to start in the playoffs.
DeAndre Hunter’s role is still being defined.
The 2016 championship holds a unique place in Cavs history.
Winning without LeBron would be a point of pride.
Cavs fans have mixed feelings about LeBron’s legacy.
The current team should be appreciated for its own achievements.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify.
The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well.
Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands (00:03.278)
3, 2, 1. What up, Cows Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Saez, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And we have a fully loaded one for you guys today, as we mentioned in yesterday’s podcast. Ashley Bastock is back for her second episode of the season. And of course, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins are joining me again. Four people on the podcast. Chris, I don’t know
Based on your tenure, if there’s ever been four people on the podcast with you before, that, this a new record for as many headsets we’ve had?
Chris (00:42.946)
Not a new record, but it doesn’t happen often.
Ethan Sands (00:46.08)
It sure doesn’t. sure doesn’t. But with that being said, we’re going to get into another edition of Hey Chris for today’s podcast as the Cavs return home for the first practice since the All-Star break. So we want to get into some of our questions from our subtexts about that. Chris, I will let you get into what you heard, what you saw about practice before we get started. How important was it for them to just be back and get into a
routine again.
Chris (01:18.894)
I guess sort of important. I mean, at this time of year, obviously there are bigger things in play for this organization, but you want an opportunity to kind of get back into a routine. You want an opportunity to see some things that you haven’t been happy about over the last month of the season and actually get onto the floor and work through those things behind the scenes as opposed to having to work through those things on the fly in game situations.
And that’s kind of the situation that the Cavs have been in because the schedule has been so condensed because they’ve been on the road so much because they’ve been traveling so much. it just hasn’t been a lot of opportunity for them to work on the things that they’ve wanted to work on. The things that they feel like are going wrong for them throughout this stretch. It’s hard to say that, right? Because they still have the best record in the Eastern conference. It’s the second best record.
in the NBA, but the way that Kenny Atkinson has termed it is slippage. Slippage on both sides of the ball, mainly on the defensive end of the floor and practice is something that you would believe would help some of those issues.
Ethan Sands (02:30.808)
So one of the questions from our subtexters basically entails the question of how bad would it make the Cavs feel if they lose the one seed heading into the playoffs to the Boston Celtics? Because we know it is possible, right? The Boston Celtics are right on the tails of the Cleveland Cavaliers for the one seed and the two seed. The Cavs have held the one seed for a majority of.
Jimmy Watkins (02:55.363)
Sorry, right on the tails? No?
No!
Ethan Sands (03:02.116)
Four games.
Jimmy Watkins (03:04.557)
There’s seven left!
Ethan Sands (03:06.527)
Yeah
Chris (03:06.628)
There’s seven left, do the math.
Ethan Sands (03:09.804)
Right? Right.
Jimmy Watkins (03:09.945)
If that happens, that would be a pretty bad collapse to end the season. So I think the Cavs would feel awful about that. But like, if that happens, I’ll do a headstand for the entirety of the podcast. It’s just not going down.
Chris (03:27.16)
The only thing that is making this a general conversation and extending the Cavs ability to wrap up the number one seed is that Boston just isn’t losing lately. Ever since they got Kristaps Porzingis back, ever since they flipped it to March and they saw the playoffs right around the corner, they’ve taken it to a completely different, like for them it’s go time. And they totally understand that. Just the way that they’ve been playing has
been able to drag this out a little bit longer, I’m with you, Jimmy. Like all these people are like, I don’t know if the Cavs are going to get the one seed. You got a four game lead and there’s seven games left and the Cavs are going to be favored in every single one of those games, except for maybe the last game of the season when it becomes Luke Travers, Imani Bates and Tristan Thompson.
Ethan Sands (04:17.014)
Let me just read the question verbatim so Jimmy doesn’t...
Jimmy Watkins (04:20.523)
And rest assured, if the fans actually need to be appreciated on fan appreciation night and the Cavs need to win that game, they’re gonna win it. They’re gonna win it.
Ethan Sands (04:32.536)
So this is what Tim C from Canton, Ohio said. said, listened to the last podcast and I understand the Cavs allegedly don’t care about the rest of the regular season, but looking at the schedules, they have a pretty good shot of losing the number one seed. Setting aside any emotional impact, how important would that be? By the way, have you looked at the tiebreakers between the Cavs and the Celtics? It gets pretty weird.
Jimmy Watkins (04:50.669)
And, run.
Ethan Sands (05:00.088)
So I’m going to turn the question over to Ashley, who’s been patiently waiting to answer the question about what do you think it would mean for the Cavs team to lose the one seed? And what do you think is the likelihood that that happens when they’re only ahead four games with seven games left?
Ashley (05:17.827)
Yeah, well, as it’s been stated already, I mean, I don’t think that’s a possibility. And if the impossible suddenly became possible, I think then we’re talking about some kind of major collapse and we’re questioning, like, is this team going to win its first playoff series at that point? And I just don’t foresee that happening at this stage of the season with that lead, like the Magic numbers down to four. It’s
There’s just not enough time for a collapse. And quite honestly, I feel like their rough time was the four game losing streak. And now they’re past that. So I think they needed it. I know that story that Donovan gave, or the quote that Donovan gave Chris on the road in the middle of that about how he’s a sicko and he likes things like that. Cause you get to, you know, problem solve. I do think all of that’s really important, but I think we’re kind of past that. And...
There would just need to be a collapse. I don’t think it’s gonna happen because they are gonna be favored in basically all of these games.
Chris (06:23.044)
have a question. What has anybody seen from the Cavs throughout the course of this year? It’s an 82 game season. We’re almost at the very end of it. What has anyone seen from this team, the second most consistent team in the entire NBA this year, a team that just a couple of weeks ago was knocking on the door of some of the all-time great regular season teams? Like, what has anybody seen?
that makes them think that this group is capable of collapse. Like they’re just, their longest losing streak is four games. Beyond that, they’ve got a three gamer. So it’s like, Donovan’s not going to let it happen. Darius isn’t going to let it happen. Evan Mobley is not going let, Kenny Atkinson is not going to let it happen. They’re not going to collapse in the final seven games of the season. They just aren’t. They’re not that kind of team.
Jimmy Watkins (06:54.358)
one weird week.
Ashley (07:17.391)
Like for me, I think really the only questions are like how are they going to do in an extended postseason, right? Like that’s what we don’t know. And I think back, Chris, you might remember this a couple of years ago when I did that conference call with the Inside the NBA guys and I asked like Charles Barkley and Shaq about the Cavs and making a playoff run. And like their answer still kind of sticks with me just because like we really haven’t seen this group do that and go on an extended run and you don’t.
Chris (07:25.091)
Right.
Ashley (07:44.005)
really know what they’re made of until they get in that moment because they were essentially like, well, they haven’t done anything in the playoffs together yet. Like we need to see them in those specific situations against these very specific teams that they’re going to be playing against in a seven game series scenario. So that to me is basically the only questions I have left at this point. And it’s answers we’re not going to get until this particular group is in that situation later this month.
Chris (07:49.475)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (08:13.529)
Nah, I need to see it against, let’s see, let’s check the schedule here. Against the Spurs, the Kings, and the Bulls. Scary, scary times. Scary times on the cab schedule right now.
Chris (08:27.298)
So to answer the question though, to answer the question though, I think the players want the number one seed more than other members of the organization do. I think the other members of the organization want health and they want rest and they want a team that’s in the best physical and mental state that it can possibly be in going into the playoffs. All of the players are saying one thing. They’re saying, yeah, we want the number one seed.
We’re competitors, we’re gunning for it. For them, given everything that they’ve accomplished throughout the course of this regular season and understanding that their proving ground isn’t going to come until mid April, May and June, it’s kind of like the carrot that is dangling in front of them. It’s like the one thing that they have left that they can chase at this point in time. I guess theoretically, if they wanted to, they could chase 67.
and become the winningest regular season team in franchise history. But really like that number one seed to say that they’re the number one team in the Eastern Conference to get home court advantage, something that they have talked about, matters a great deal to them and how they play and the energy that they get and stuff like that. I do think it matters, but I’ll say this, like nobody in this organization is gunning for the number one seed at the expense of the other stuff that they consider
more meaningful. And those things that they consider more meaningful, I mean, the main one is health. So, like, they’re not going to rush Ty Jerome back because they feel like they need him to get the number one seed. They’re not going to not rest Donovan at various points in these final seven games because they feel like they need to get the number one seed. They’re not going to take Dean Wade and Deandre Hunter out of proverbial bubble wrap.
because they’re pursuing the number one seed, if that makes sense.
Jimmy Watkins (10:29.721)
nor should they, but I just want to said that NBA teams are like 110 and 30 or something in game sevens at home. So like you should want the number one seed, particularly against the Celtics. Just want to throw that out there.
Chris (10:37.86)
you
Ethan Sands (10:45.954)
And we talked about this with Kenny Atkinson today, just the fact that rotations are going to shrink. There’s an idea of what he has in mind for the players that are going to be available. And also understanding that Ty Jerome did not practice today. So they hope to have him back for three or four games before the regular season comes to a close so he can ramp back up for the playoffs. But that kind of gets into
Chris (11:10.158)
Jimmy, going back to what you said there, I think that’s an important point. And I think that’s where the conversation turns. Right? Like if you’re the Cavs, it’s probably more important for you to have home court advantage than it is for Boston. Because I think there’s a gap. I still think there’s a gap between the Celtics and the Cavs. I think the Celtics have proven it more on the big stage. Obviously they won the championship. They’ve been through things together and they’re playing at a different level. And it doesn’t seem
Like they have significant injury worries, which, know, that’s one of the things that can kind of level the playing field for anybody when it comes to Boston. Like what’s the health of Porzingis? What’s the health of Horford? How’s Jalen Brown’s knee? Derek White? You know what I mean? I just think the rest of the NBA, including the Cavs, I think they’re in a position where they need help. They need help from the Celtics to beat the Celtics four times in seven tries. And you need everything.
to your advantage, everything that you can control to your advantage. So for the Cavs to close the gap on the Celtics, one of the ways to do that is obviously get home court advantage and find a way to get a game seven back in Cleveland or just find a way to get the first two games in the series and go up two and shift the pressure to them going back to home court advantage.
They call it that for a reason. It should be advantageous for the home team. And I think for the Cavs, you know, they need every possible thing on their side to beat the Celtics four times in seven tries. And it would certainly increase their chances of winning that series.
Ethan Sands (12:55.992)
Getting to the next question from our subtexters coming from Chris and Lakewood, says, Hey y’all, a couple weeks ago you had a pod where you spent time talking about Celtics vs Cavs. You said rotations will shrink in the playoffs, why can’t the Cavs use their depth and try to run teams like the Celtics or the Knicks with smaller rotations so hard that their stars get exhausted? Is that a legit strategy, or would the Celtics just beat up on our bench too badly for that to work? Thanks!
Chris (13:01.154)
What a name.
Ethan Sands (13:25.57)
This starts off with something that we learned from Kenny Atkinson today when he mentioned that he will start every playoff series with 10 in his rotation, right? And I think that’s different than what we had originally come into. And as Jimmy has mentioned on different podcasts, the first round and second round, depending on who they play, can also be seen as the regular season and ramping up for the Boston Celtics, because that’s just simply how good the Cavs have been. And again, we’re not talking about a drop off. We’re talking about them
bringing their game to another level as well. So I wanted to get into this question because I think it’s a good one and why the situation presents itself for the Cavs to have two options, right?
Jimmy Watkins (14:06.787)
Sorry, can I ask a clarifying question real quick? Real quick, I want to ask a clarifying question. Did Kenny, I didn’t transcribe this part of Kenny today. So I’m trying to, did he say every playoff series he played? think he, I know he said he believes he can play 10. He said every playoff series? Okay, just gotcha.
Chris (14:20.579)
Yes.
Yes, yes, going into every playoff series. That’s the way that he’s looking at it. But that plan can change quickly, as we know.
Ethan Sands (14:34.082)
Yeah, he did also admit that it could change, could shrink based on the performance of the 10th player on the rotation and based on what he is bringing in every given scenario. And obviously I think that 10th player, correct, correct. And I think that 10th or ninth player can also change in the rotation based on the series and based on what Kenny Atkinson believes he could need. But what do you guys think about this? What do you think about the plan that Kenny Atkinson
Jimmy Watkins (14:44.801)
or the ninth.
Chris (14:49.124)
For the next. That’s right. That’s right.
Ethan Sands (15:03.534)
talked about today and how he plans on implementing it in the playoffs.
Chris (15:08.42)
Well, I think there are variables attached to all of those players outside the top eight. Sam Merrill, can you hold up defensively? Isaac Okoro, are you making shots? Dean Wade, are you making shots or are you staying confident? So it’s like each one of those guys has the thing that could get them played out of the rotation, just like it’s happened in the past.
And I think everybody inside this organization is wondering the same thing about all these guys. Kenny Atkinson is not a dummy. He understands that Isaac Kikoro’s viability in a playoff environment is all going to be about how he’s used offensively, whether he’s making those shots, and whether the opponent is actually guarding him.
Like he’s going to have a short leash and Sam Merrill is going to have a short leash and Dean Wade is going to have a short leash. And that’s just the way it’s going to go. But the bottom line is Kenny at the very least has options, certainly more options than JB Bickerstaff did and more playable options than JB did. So if, Max Struce is having a hard time holding up on the defensive end of the floor, in the starting lineup against the Boston Celtics, then what do you think happens?
The same thing that happened last time they played against the Celtics on the road. He got a quick hook and he was essentially turned into a role player or a specialist. And then you give those minutes to DeAndre Hunter. And if DeAndre Hunter is in foul trouble or he’s not impacting the game in a positive way, then you say, okay, how about Dean Wade? All right, how about Isaac Ikoro? Or how about maybe we try a more offensive lineup with Sam Merrill? So a coach that has options,
That’s what it’s about to me. And Kenny Atkinson’s going to have those options. It’s just about what’s the matchup call for? What’s the situation call for? Who’s playing well? Who’s not playing well? but it’s not going to be a consistent 10 man thing. It’s just not, it may be in the first round, maybe in the first round against Chicago or Atlanta or whoever it may be. But as the playoffs shrink, Kenny, just like every other coach,
Chris (17:25.348)
is going to find a comfort zone with a certain rotation and a certain set of players. And he’s going to have more trust in certain guys than he is Sam Merrill, Isaac Ikora and Dean Way. That’s just the reality of it. Every coach in that situation would have more faith in Deandre Hunter, Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Evan Mobley and want to play them 40 to 44 minutes or something like that, because that can become an advantage for you if
those guys can handle that workload and if they can be effective playing that many minutes.
Ashley (18:01.019)
I wanted to bring up too, like, the general idea behind this question, because I think, well, I think a lot of people listening to this podcast understand why playoff rotations shrink, but it seemed like with this question, a basic understanding of it, I think, is important, because as a coach, as an organization, to what Chris is saying, you’re making a bet with your best players. And that’s why you go from playing like 10 to 12 people to typically seven to eight for most teams. That’s the core.
because you want the Cavs, in the Cavs case, their core four, to play as many minutes as they can because that’s gonna give you your best chance to win. And I know, like it might sound counter induct or counter intuitive to be like, well, like if the other team’s only playing seven guys, wouldn’t we just wanna like run them down the court? Like that might sneak you a win in game five, but long-term, it’s not a strategy to have playoff success because really like you’re gonna get wins based on.
your stars and your core and you want those guys playing more minutes than they were playing in the regular season. So in case anyone wondered why this is a phenomenon, that is why we see it all the time.
Jimmy Watkins (19:12.249)
Teams also just aren’t like as deep as the Cavs are. There’s like in terms of shot creation, playoff level shot creation. No one’s really that deep when it comes to elite playoff shot creation. We’re talking about talking about, think, think Donovan qualifies. Darius can qualify depending on the playoff day. I think we’re projecting forward the Cavs 1, Evan Mobley 2 qualified Deandre Hunter as his own shot creator.
Chris (19:41.187)
you
Jimmy Watkins (19:42.061)
Qualifies, right? Maybe Ty Jerome on a good night qualifies, but like start drying up real quick. And if you’re trying to run, you’re trying to really push this, we’ve got the depth thing to its test. You’re putting too much on, the way you have to do that is like you’re just taking the wrong guys off the court essentially. And you’re putting a lot of specialists.
on the court because of wind. And that’s just not enough. Ironically, one of the only teams who probably who has enough shot creators to spread them out like this, the Boston Celtics. It’s just like, they’re so good that you want to be throwing your best punch or the best punch you possibly can at all times.
Chris (20:33.262)
And this doesn’t mean that there won’t be points throughout the course of this playoff run for the Cavs that are coming up where Sam Merrill just goes on a heater and changes a game. Or, you know, Max Struus bangs in five threes and changes a game. Or maybe Gervonta Green has his Dante Jones moment for one minute at the end of a half where he just changes things, right?
Ashley (20:56.003)
my gosh. Well, it’s because I just wrote about it, which like I hadn’t thought about it in a while, but obviously Dante Jones is on Tylue’s staff. So he was in town the other night. And that’s but that’s like an important point, right? It’s like just because you’re out of a playoff rotation doesn’t mean you’re not going to get some key spot minutes, even if like you have if you’re Isaac Akura and you miss shots. Well, maybe you get through that series. Maybe he’s missing shots the first series and maybe they need to him to lock somebody up.
defensively and face guard somebody. Like, those moments can still happen even if you’re not in the core rotation or you’ve got knocked out of it for some reason.
Chris (21:33.984)
We all know that Ty Jerome is going to go on a mini run all by himself, you know, against another team’s bench that creates some distance for the Cavs. He’s done it all season long. He’s a big game player. I believe in him in a high level. The Cavs believe in him in a high level. Like that’s going to happen. Like that’s an advantage that the Cavs could have.
But like that’s not going to last over the course of a series or that’s not going to last over the course of a game. It’s going to be a pocket of a game, a pocket of a series where it becomes extremely meaningful. Like think back to, you know, the Cavs championship run. There were moments for Richard Jefferson where he stepped into the starting lineup for Kevin Love and he gave them a different kind of look and he gave them more length, defense, athleticism. But there was game seven where Kevin Love was brought in there.
to pull down a bunch of rebounds, to be physical and stuff like that. So like he was neutralized through a majority of that series because of the matchups against the Golden State Warriors. But there were moments where he stepped forward and played a significant role for a small pocket of a game or the small pocket of that series. And you’re going to have guys like that for the Cavs that get those opportunities as well that are outside of the core four players.
And if they capitalize on them, then the series looks a little bit different, right?
Jimmy Watkins (23:03.725)
Can I say this?
Ethan Sands (23:03.82)
And I want to make this point just let me, let me give you, I’m going to toss it to you, Jimmy, I promise. But there’s been like comments about DeAndre Hunter and his playoffs experience and injury management and injury history as well. because Jimmy has mentioned on the podcast before that he hasn’t played outside of the Eastern Conference first round, which to be fair is true because in any other series that, the Atlanta Hawks made it.
out of the first round, Deandre Hunter was injured, right? So the most games that he’s played in a playoff series is six that happened in 2023. And he got injured. I believe it was that year as well, right? So I think it’s important to note that these players are also trying to create their playoff moments. Those guys that have not been there, Ty Jerome, Sam Merrill barely played when he was in
Milwaukee, right, when they won a championship. Deandre Hunter hasn’t played outside of the first round. The team that he was on has made it out of the first round. He just didn’t play, right? So I think it’s important to note that there are players that are looking to make their mark. Jimmy, I’m going get to you before I get into this next question. But I just think it’s really important that we continue to watch how these bench players react. And that’s why Chris has mentioned
Chris (24:11.588)
Mm.
Ethan Sands (24:29.228)
that this organization is going to bubble wrap some players and be very cautious with some of these guys. And it’s not necessarily all core four guys. And I don’t even know if we can say one of the core four guys has got to be putting bubble wrap. Obviously they’re going to be cautious with Darius if he gets hit in the face, right? That’s a given. But I feel like if there’s anybody or any players that are going to be the most crucially saved, it’s going to be the bench players. But go ahead, Jimmy.
Jimmy Watkins (24:57.817)
I just want to say regular season depth. I’m thinking of it this way. Regular season depth is about what you can do. What you bring to the table. think playoff depth is about what you can’t do and what, what you can, what other teams can use you to take off the table. So it’s like, yes, as a Quoio’s lockdown defender, it’s also someone that Celtics might not have to guard. Ty Jerome, incredible story, great shooter, great floater game, great shot creator.
Also someone they’re going to go at on defense. Sam Merrill. Sam Merrill. don’t know how long this is going to hold up. He’s had a great defensive season. I sent out on subtext the other day. He has the same on-off numbers as Evan Mobley. Same on-off numbers as Evan Mobley. A lot of noise in there. He’s playing, he’s probably playing in bench units anchored by Evan Mobley. That helps. like, and Dean Wade, all these other guys around him, but still crazy. Sam Merrill, people are to go at him.
Chris (25:40.664)
you
Jimmy Watkins (25:55.717)
I just, I think that’s a neat, neat way to put a ribbon on how playoff rotations, how to think about that.
Ethan Sands (26:05.206)
So the other question that we’ve had from the conversation with Kenny Atkinson is how the Cavs are going to use Deandre Hunter in the playoffs. Because Deandre Hunter has played just 30 minutes alongside the core four this season, according to NBA.com. And we know that he is a guy that has played more minutes alongside Evan Mobley with Jared Allen on the bench and tried to figure out these different optimal lineups for the Cavs. Chris.
Kenny Atkinson talked in practice today about wanting to get a bigger sample size on the Deandre Hunter with the core four before the season is over. Obviously it’s just seven games, but he did say that he wanted to get more, a more, a better look at that. What do you think that could do for potential lineups or anything? do you, are you, are you of the belief that Max Drews is going to start the first round?
playoff series, regardless of how Deandre Hunter plays in this last stretch, with potential options with the Core Four.
Chris
I think the Cavs are going into the playoffs with the plan to have Max Struce in the starting lineup the same way that they’ve operated for a majority of the second half of this season. Number one, I think they like the things that Max brings alongside the core four. Number two, they can point to the numbers, the effectiveness of the core four plus Max Struce. And the other thing is Deandre was coming off the bench in Atlanta.
in the middle of a career year. He was in the six man of the year conversation. So he’s clearly comfortable coming off the bench. He clearly can be effective in that role coming off the bench. And it works for him and it works for the Cavs. If it works for both sides and they’re on the same page about what his role is going to be, then I think it’s fine to go that way. But look, like if Max Drews is struggling, if the Cavs aren’t getting out of the starting lineup,
what they want to get out of it, then they can quickly turn to DeAndre and have him play, you know, majority of the minutes at the small forward spot. But I think the Cavs are still also trying to work through a lot of stuff related to DeAndre. I think they’re trying to figure out is he better playing the three or the four? Is he better playing alongside two bigs or better playing alongside one big with Evan Mobley? Primarily, it’s been DeAndre and Evan Mobley together.
not DeAndre and Jared Allen together. But I don’t think the Cavs to this point, for a variety of reasons, I don’t think they’ve gotten as much of a look at DeAndre at the three as what they wanted to. And I know responsibilities are what they are and it’s a positionless basketball game, but who he shares the floor with is important. How he’s used within the offense and on defense, that’s important too.
And I still think Kenny is trying to work through those kinds of things when it comes to DeAndre. But we’ve talked about this so many times on this podcast. DeAndre is a blender and he can play with a bunch of different guys and he can fill a bunch of different roles and whatever it is that the Cavs need from him on that given night, whether it’s a scoring punch off the bench, guard the best player in end of game situations, a downside
Chris (31:24.444)
to the five position if you have to in a super small ball lineup. know, play the three, play the four, play with the starters without the starters. He’s capable because of his skill set and because of his versatility, he’s capable of filling in a lot of those different gaps in a way that not everybody on this roster that would theoretically occupy that same position can do.
Jimmy Watkins (31:53.911)
say, okay, a couple things to say here. Number one, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that De’Andre Hunter is on pace to play the second most games of his career this season in the, in a six man role. I think that could be playing a role in this too, if we talk about bubble wrap going into the playoffs. The other thing I’d want to say is if you are questioning
Micro managing Kenny Atkinson’s lineup data after the season that this man has turned in. have Kenny for coach of the year column run in the morning. Please get a grip. If you are frankly at all combing through small data sample sizes in March and April of the regular season, please get a grip. I want that said, because I think I’ve said this a couple of times now that Deandre.
has played with three members of the core four, the one he doesn’t play with very often, Jared Allen is the easiest dude to play with in the world. Like it’s good. I promise it’s going to happen and they’re going to be okay. And the other thing that I actually don’t think we’ve talked about yet on the pod is like putting Deandre out there with Donovan and Darius, you’re getting less of what you got Deandre Hunter for out of those groups. You know I’m saying? He’s like an extra shock creator guy.
Chris (33:10.362)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (33:13.837)
He’s a guy who can bring some juice when one of them are on the bench. If he’s on the floor with Donovan, Darius and Evan, he’s probably gonna do a lot of stand in there, which is fine. Floor spacing is important, but like, don’t you want to get the most mileage out of your mid season acquisition? Like this for both sides, the Cavs want to get more out of Deandre Hunter. Deandre Hunter probably wants the ball too. So.
He’s not going to have the ball as much in those situations. It’s something that you need to work through as you get to the playoffs. But we’ve talked about this. He’s just not playing with Jared Allen. And Jared Allen fits on 30 NBA teams. Like it’s going to be all right. I promise it’s going to be all right.
Chris (33:56.73)
you
Chris (34:00.594)
To your point about that, mean, part of the reason why Atlanta moved DeAndre to the bench is to get him away from ball dominant Trey Young and give him a little bit more freedom within the offense. And look what happened.
Ethan Sands (34:01.046)
I think it’s.
Ethan Sands (34:13.794)
Yeah. And De’Andre has been great off the bench, but I also think it’s funny to mention that he’s trying to be utilized in a non-ball dominant role or non-ball dominant lineups. it’s also like Kenny Atkinson simply hasn’t really figured De’Andre out all the way yet. He’s still trying to figure out how to run ATOs and plays and sets for him on the offense event because in part,
Because DeAndre Hunter is so good at creating his own shot. He doesn’t need all the picking roles and these things. he is, that’s one of the things that Kobe Altman raved about in his press conference when the trade was first announced. He like, Kobe Altman took to the press conference, it was going through his shot motion to describe how DeAndre Hunter was going to be able to shoot over opponents. And that’s come to fruition. So good on Kobe Altman.
ball nowhere, not just somebody that’s behind the desk, because we know he’s not. But I want to get into this last question from our subtexters. And I think when we talk a lot about LeBron and how the franchise records were mostly set, this is where we’ve come to. And Isaac Acuro and Jared Allen talked a little bit about this the other day as well. The question is, every year, it didn’t matter with what
seed you had with LeBron because East ran through him. But with getting 60 wins this year and with eyes on the championship, would a championship this year mean more to the city and organization than the one in 2016? Winning a championship without LeBron to me would be more special than with him at this time. Ashley, I’m going to start with you and see where you fall into this category about the
championship run comparison to 2016.
Ashley (36:11.655)
So my gut is it wouldn’t be more special just because LeBron’s not here anymore. But you think about all that is wrapped up in 2016. You’re ending a 52 year title drought for a city that was so desperate for one. That’s number one. Number two, they come back from down three one. And I know now, you know, the how the Cavs fandom is split on LeBron.
Like, that’s a whole separate discussion. But in real time, like, as it was happening, like, it did mean something that he is from Northeast Ohio and did that. Like, I don’t think that this one would be less special necessarily. I don’t think it would be more special. And I don’t think you can really categorize it in that terms because you’re essentially trying to quantify the specialness of it. Like, I think it would be appreciated in a different way.
right, because these are a bunch of guys that they got under very different circumstances, right? Like you draft Darius Garland when you’re bad, you draft Evan Mobley, you make the amazing trade for Donovan Mitchell, you trade for Jared Allen, which was, you know, that move alone has been one of the, I guess, under heralded ones that they made in making this team up. So it’s just different. Like, it’s not lesser.
It’s not more than it’s just got so many different circumstances around it. But I think, truthfully, in so many ways, like the 2016 title won’t really be eclipsed by much. I truthfully think and this is not just me saying this because it’s my primary beat. Like, I think the only thing that would ever eclipse 2016 is a Brown Super Bowl. Like, quite honestly, like that’s it. That’s the standard. And this team is not not providing that as much as Brown’s fans would like it to be true.
Chris (38:00.325)
yeah.
Chris (38:08.966)
Completely agree with all of that. The other thing is there is no NBA finals, whether it’s Golden State, whether it’s Oklahoma City, whether, well, maybe the Lakers. Not even the Lakers, even though it would be Lebron. That would make it a little bit close. That would add a different kind of layer to it. But it was Cavs Warriors. It was the rivalry during the time. And that added more to that story and to that win as well. Cavs fans hated
the Warriors and they had every reason to hate the Warriors. That level of hatred does not exist for the Oklahoma City Thunder and it won’t over the course of one series. So that added to the story as well. The thing I will say though is I do believe that it would be a significant point of pride and rightfully so for this organization to show itself that it can do it without LeBron. Not that they haven’t like proven that
they can be a respectable franchise, not that they haven’t proven that they can make smart moves and stuff like that. But like, there are people, general people that follow the NBA, that work in the NBA that are like, can you do it without LeBron? Can you show that you can win a championship and build a sustainable winner and do all these different things when it comes to your culture and stuff without LeBron?
And I think it would be a big point of pride for Dan Gilbert, for Kobe Altman, for Mike Gansy, for Brandon Weems, for everybody inside this organization to be able to say that it wasn’t about Lebron. That the Cavs history isn’t solely tied to just one guy, one entity. Like we can do it without him. We can do it our own way.
Jimmy Watkins (40:02.125)
So I understand that. And I understand why players want to be a part of that. But like why Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland and Jared Allen and Evan Mobley want to be part of the next wave of Grey Cavs. Why do fan why are fans wondering about this? That’s my question. Why why is it a bad thing? Like why are you trying to get out of the LeBron James is flagship franchise. That’s pretty cool. That’s pretty cool to me. He’s like the
Chris (40:29.5)
No.
Ashley (40:30.887)
I just think...
Like, to answer the question, I think it’s just this segment of Cavs fans that, quite honestly, it’s probably a lot of Cavs fans that just turned on him the second he left that were also not happy when he went to Miami. I think it’s specifically to me, the question of why, Jimmy, I agree with you that I don’t fully understand it, but I understand the phenomena.
Jimmy Watkins (40:48.195)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley (41:00.241)
I don’t agree with the phenomenon, but I think there’s a large segment of Cap’s fans that just, despite the title, have negative feelings around LeBron for leaving a second time. And I think that kind of, to me, causes these questions, comparisons, a desire to do something without LeBron. Like, it’s almost like an inferiority complex, right? Like, we want to prove.
as a fan base, our team can still win without you or like a scorned ex boyfriend. Like that’s kind of how I’m looking at it right now. They’re, yeah.
Chris (41:32.026)
Yeah. I mean, there’s also, there’s also a sense from a fan base that it takes away something that other people can use against it. Use against the team that they love. Right now, like people that are skeptics of the Cavs or people that are Boston fans or people that are Oklahoma City Thunder fans or whoever they are, they can use it against the Cavs fan base and they can say these things.
Ashley (41:42.598)
Yeah.
Chris (42:00.92)
and it can hurt their feelings because like some of it is a little bit true because they haven’t won a championship without LeBron, right? They haven’t won 60 games up until this season without LeBron. As of last year, before they got past the Orlando Magic, they hadn’t won a playoff series without LeBron. And it’s like, it just takes something away that other people can use against the team that the fan base loves.
Jimmy Watkins (42:30.539)
the reason they didn’t win without LeBron is because LeBron was here for a long fricking time. He just kept winning playoff series. Yeah. Okay. the previous 15 years, not great. But like, I don’t know, these people who are using LeBron to discredit Cavs, it sounds like a bunch of people who don’t know ball. Like Mark Price was a really good basketball player. Brad Doherty’s really good basketball player.
Chris (42:35.196)
Eleven years is a long time in the NBA.
Jimmy Watkins (42:56.547)
They got caught up at the wrong time in the Eastern Conference. They’re like the other teams who were playing against, they’re like the Toronto Raptors of the LeBron era, a little bit got caught up at the wrong time. It happens. It happens. do I understand? Here’s where I understand it from the, the cabs winning a championship. Ashley said this well from the, classic small market build, right? We were bad. And of course they were bad in part because LeBron left. Maybe there’s something there too.
Chris (43:03.409)
Yes, right.
Chris (43:07.174)
Mm-hmm.
Jimmy Watkins (43:26.093)
We were bad, pick by pick, piece by piece, we shrewdly drafted and shrewdly acquired Jared Allen and then we pushed all of our chips in for Donovan Mitchell and we got him to stay when everyone said he wasn’t gonna stay. I understand that build. I just don’t know why we have to pit this awesome Cavs team against other awesome Cavs teams. Just let the awesome Cavs teams be awesome.
Ethan Sands (43:54.57)
I think that’s a great point. And I honestly think that’s the perfect way to end this podcast. There is no competition between teams. You bring a championship to a city, as Jared Allen and Donovan Mitchell spoke about, you get free drinks anyway. So that’s the most important thing. You get to have fun in your city. You get to bring a championship, a parade, all these things. It’s not necessarily the era of which you do it. It’s just being able to hang another banner in Rocket Arena.
Obviously the first banner in the new arena name, same arena as what happened, but we’re going to go through that at very different time. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to
Subtext if you want to get a shout out on the podcast if you want to hear your name called when we talk about your questions This is how to do it. Also if you want to send in your questions for next week’s Hey Chris episode. That’s how you do it as well to do so sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit Cleveland comm slash calves and click on the blue bar at the top of the page If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. We can tell you
that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, Jimmy, and Ashley. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.