CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins reflect on the Cavs’ disappointing end to their season after losing to the Indiana Pacers in the Eastern Conference semifinals in five games.
Takeaways:
The Cavs had a strong regular season but failed in the playoffs.
Darius Garland and Max Strus struggled significantly in Game 5.
Mental toughness is a critical area for improvement.
The Cavs lost their identity under pressure during the series.
Jarrett Allen’s performance raised questions about his playoff readiness.
Donovan Mitchell’s frustration reflects a desire for championship pursuit.
The Cavs are not currently positioned to compete for a championship.
The Cavs bench struggled to contribute effectively in the semifinals.
Future improvements will require external changes to the roster.
Accountability is essential for both players and coaching staff.
Historical performance can inform future expectations for the team.
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Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we’re coming to you after the end of the season for the Cleveland Cavaliers. They fall to the Indiana Patriots in Game five of the Eastern Conference semifinals. Chris, how do you react to this end of the season, how the Cavs fared? And we’re going to get into what everybody said behind the scenes, but I want your thoughts first.
Chris Fedor: Oh, God. Must win game. Game 5 at home, Darius Garland, Max Struz combined to go 4 for 24. Jared Allen was invisible. The pressure, the physicality of the Pacers bothered the Cavs once again. I just think after this kind of season and this kind of loss, it’s strange here to me, guys, because the Cavs did a lot of things right. I think they resisted the temptation to break up the core four. After a flame out last year. They made the ballsy move to move on from JB Bickerstaff, and they found the right coach in Kenny Atkinson. They went for it at the trade deadline. They sacrificed chemistry and camaraderie, brought in DeAndre Hunter, who was like a missing piece who brought some things, but both offensively and defensively that this team was missing. They managed the regular season the right way. Donovan Mitchell made sacrifices, took a step back to elevate and empower his teammates. So there were so many things that they did right throughout the course of this year. But for it to end like this, the same place it did last year in the Eastern Conference semifinals with a 41 series loss against a team that was favored in zero games of this series, a team that was a clear underdog against you going into the series. Like at that point, it’s just not about the journey you’re expected to win. And it’s very difficult to process this kind of defeat because of all those different things, because I think there’s a lot of soul searching that this franchise has to do. Now after this, I think the narrative is going to continue about this team. I think there are going to be a lot of harsh things said about this team, and rightfully so. But this season, despite the fact that they won 64 games, despite the fact that they were the number one seed in the Eastern Conference, this season was about getting to the conference finals and the NBA Finals. You had multiple players using the C word. You had people inside the organization using the C word. They lost in the Eastern Conference semifinals to the Indiana Pacers, the four seed, who, like I said, was Favored in zero of the games. This was a failure of a season for the Cavs. Point blank period. They did not get to the destination that they wanted to get to. And there are a variety of reasons for it, but I think what it showed is that the Cavs thought they were ready to make a step forward. They weren’t ready. Indiana was ready for that.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m thinking about Donovan’s press conference tonight and the way he just kept hitting the table and saying, man, you guys are going to write some ish about us. It’s almost like he was, like, trying to eight mile us. And Eminem’s like, he’s gonna say all the things about himself.
Chris Fedor: Gangster. His real name Clarence.
Jimmy Watkins: Exactly, Exactly. I know something about you. You went to Louisville. That’s an ACC school. We’re gonna write those things because at what point does a narrative stop being a narrative?
Chris Fedor: Right? Right.
Jimmy Watkins: I said it after game four. You are. You guys are perpetuating this narrative. That’s me putting it nicely. After three straight playoffs, series exits, that underwhelm, let’s say, yeah, we got two data points. We’re two years removed from the next series. We’re supposed to be done with all the physicality, mental toughness talk. Well, we’re not. We’re still talking about it. It’s like one of the first 100 words that were out of Kenny Atkinson’s mouth.
Chris Fedor: Yep.
Jimmy Watkins: Tonight we’re physical and mental toughness. And he tried to dance around the physicality thing. Force, aggression, whatever you want to call it, I would say resilience. I sent this out to the subtexters during game. The lot of different ways you could slice up this series. When the Pacers fell behind big, they kept fighting, and they ended up coming back twice, winning the game. Cavs fell behind big. They let go of the fricking rope. It’s not that simple, but you can make it that simple. Honestly, I’ll be really interested to say. See what president of basketball operations Kobe Altman has to say about this, because, I mean, it can be very easy. We have praised him for his patience on this show in our writing because clearly he was right to think there was more meat on the bone with this team this year. My question now is, how patient are you waiting on these guys to grow up as playoff guys? The answer can be sort of patient. You want more out of Evan Mobley, but he clearly is more ready now than he was last year and the year before. Right. Darius Garland. That’s a tough eval. That’s a real tough eval. Honestly, he. I’m the closest to giving him a pass and I’ve been really hard on Darius in the past. I’m the closest of all the injured guys. I’m the closest to giving him a pass because you could see tonight by the end. I think you switched shoes at one point tonight. He did, yeah. So I would assume that’s him. I wasn’t there for his interview tonight. I haven’t listened to it yet. But he didn’t talk, I assume. Oh, he didn’t talk. Okay, then we’ll talk to him tomorrow. I assume that was discomfort with the carbon fiber insert. And then he. That’s again, I’m assuming. I don’t know, but I’m assuming. And then he tried to play with it for a little while. He could barely walk at the end. But we have. We still have questions, at the very least about his playoff readiness. And like Chris said, Jaredown poof, six rebounds last two games. What do you do about that? How patient are you willing to be and what are your other options if you don’t want to be so patient? These are the questions we have to answer now.
Ethan Sands: I think the biggest thing for me, it wasn’t the physicality, basically what they were talking about, because obviously Kenny Atkinson made it clear, like physicality, force, like all these things go hand in hand. For me, it’s the mental toughness, the mental fortitude that continuously needs to be harped on. And obviously for somehow he still said I like our maturity, while also saying that I think we need our mental toughness to improve. I think that is where the Cavs need to start. Right? Because Max Stru feeling the need to send a text message into the group chat, like, if you don’t believe, don’t show up to work. That means that there was some people in the locker room that weren’t believing, were or were giving the indication that they weren’t ready for what was to come. So what I think for this mental toughness of this team is that they hear all of the stuff that is being said about them. Clearly, Donovan knows it’s going to be written. Donovan understands that we have a job to do as well. But how did they respond has been what the saying has been throughout the entire season and they still have yet to show me that they can respond positively. And especially after this Indiana Pacers series, there’s no indication that they’re going to be able to move forward, especially with this group as a whole.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I think the hard thing for the Cavs to process is the fact that Indiana turned out to be the better team, they were more together, they were more connected, they were more composed, they kept their poise, and they stayed true to themselves. I think that is a big difference in this entire series, is that when pressure ramps up and you’re faced with adversity, are you you or do you go outside of who you are? You know, throughout the course of the season, one of the things that we praised Kenny Atkinson for was staying true to himself. You know, the Cavs were mired in this losing streak, and everybody was going crazy in March about it. And he had them play a game of horse because he thought that was best for his team, because he had the pulse of his team, and because he wanted to stay true to himself and make sure that he continued to harness that joy. It felt like in this series when the Cavs were pushed to the brink, when they had all the pressure on their shoulders, when Indiana was outplaying them and pushing them around and making them feel something that Miami simply couldn’t. That level of adversity making them feel something that they didn’t in the regular season, they lost themselves. Tonight was not Cavs basketball. Look at the way that they played on offense, their shot profile. They had 10 assists. Are you kidding me? 10 assists on 30 made shots. 30 plus made shots. That’s not Cavs basketball. Indiana tested them in a certain kind of way, and I would say they broke them because they lost themselves, because all of the things that they did that led to success during the regular season, all of the things that they did that they felt like were going to be advantageous for them coming into this series, in this particular matchup, they did none of it. Not consistently enough, certainly. I mean, and the results speak for themselves. And Kenny Atkinson said it after game one, after game one, he said, I didn’t recognize that team on the floor. How many times were you watching this series between the Cavs and the Pacers and saying to yourself, what the hell are they doing? What is this offense? What is this spacing? What is this defense? And that’s because of the stress that Indiana put on them relentlessly. And they just didn’t know how to respond to it. They just didn’t know how to handle it. And I think that is the definition of composure. I think that’s the definition of poise. And when the Cavs pressed Indiana, when they stressed Indiana, when they made Indiana feel comfortable, they stayed true to themselves. They didn’t go outside of themselves. They calmly executed their offense. They didn’t get rattled. They weren’t phased.
Jimmy Watkins: And.
Chris Fedor: And like, all of those things speak to a level of maturity, basketball maturity, that the Cavs are still searching for. It did feel like in this series, guys, that it was a bunch of adults, a bunch of grownups against a team that is still learning what it needs to learn about playoff basketball. And I think I’m not putting words in Donovan Mitchell’s mouth. I’m not going to do that. But I sense frustration with him from a standpoint of, I’m ready, I’m ready. Like, who else is in this organization alongside me? Again, he didn’t say that, but that’s my sense of his disappointment and his frustration that he’s on a specific timeline and he’s ready to compete for championships. And the other most important players within this, the same conversation as last year. Like, as you said, Jimmy, Evan Mobley’s better. He’s a better version of the guy from last year. Darius Garland is better. He’s a better version of the guy from last year, but better enough to compete for a championship. I think that’s a legitimate question coming out of this series. And I think there’s. There’s some that are wondering, and possibly Donovan included, who else in this organization is on that same timeline with me? Who else in this organization is ready for everything that playoff basketball requires? And are the most important people in this organization ready for that?
Jimmy Watkins: I think we’ll have a couple of fun off season podcasts as it pertains to Kenny, too.
Chris Fedor: A little bit too.
Jimmy Watkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, Kenny. Chris and I were talking about this before we started recording Kenny in this fourth quarter. I mean, throwing darts in. In every direction. Throwing darts over his shoulder without looking. It felt like in the fourth quarter. Ty Jerome. Okay, Ty Jerome, you scored eight points. Go back in there. No, not Ty Jerome. Darius Garland.
Ethan Sands: No.
Jimmy Watkins: Isaac Coro. Two bigs. We want to try two bigs. We got. We had a nice little stretch of getting offensive rebound. No, no, two bigs. DeAndre Hunter needs to go out there because he’s had a nice little resurgent game. I mean, like, what’s going on out there? That’s Kenny searching in part because, like we’re saying the Pacers broke the Cav’s identity and there’s. There’s no lineup you can point to and say, well, they.
Chris Fedor: This.
Jimmy Watkins: This is what worked really well. Well for us in the past, getting cooked the whole series. You did the two big head. The one game you did win. You got a lot of offensive rebounds. That’s the one thing you could lean on. But of course, there were many other moments where you guys were lagging behind in transition. So this is why this conversation is why I really, really, really hope that Kobe Altman doesn’t come out and say we had a bunch of injuries. Because it’s just not that simple. Yeah, it’s just not that simple. Obviously, Darius wasn’t himself. Obviously Evan Mobley and DeAndre Hunter missing a game, that hurts you, but you were winning that game by 20 points.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: And you were ahead by seven with less than a minute left. Like, you blew it. You blew it late in game. I mean, it’s so eerie how the competitive games in this series, they followed such an eerily similar script. I think it’s game one, the Pacers get off to a great start, but the other two, it’s like, okay, the Cavs get off to a good start pace. Just chip, chip, chip, chip, chip. It’s like, it’s a little bit like Knicks, Boston, where it’s like, if I. If we could get you late in the game, close fourth quarter, we know we got you. We know we got you because we’re more composed in those moments. I wonder how, if you floated this to a Cavs higher up, how would they respond to this? The Cavs are not close to winning a championship right now. That’s not what I thought 10 days ago.
Chris Fedor: Sure.
Jimmy Watkins: But it is. It is clear to me now. I mean, just think of it. Logistically, you lost in five games in the second round. That’s not close to winning a championship.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: And then context of how you lost those games. Did you guys catch any of Denver OKC tonight? Those guys are playing some ball, man. How many Cabs are surviving out there?
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: How many Cabs are going to be able to withstand the swings of those series? It’s that OKC crowd. No disrespect to the Pacers crowd. They get after it. It’s. It’s a little different. I think the Cavs, okc, some of these crowds are a little bit different. Cavs are blowing away in the wind against the Orlando and Indiana crowds. Yeah, you haven’t seen anything. You haven’t seen anything. But. Yeah, I don’t know what to. How to process. They’re so far out of their. Out of their norms. Even like with Donovan, it’s hard for me to evaluate him even, because it’s like, well, he’s just going full hero ball mode.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: So is that. Is that Donovan getting outside of himself or is that Donovan reading the room?
Chris Fedor: Fair question.
Jimmy Watkins: Maybe the answer is yes. I don’t know. I don’t know. But I could not have given the way things started the regular season. It’s like borderline worst case scenario.
Ethan Sands: Just breaking this game down a little bit. The CAVS had a 19 point lead in this game. Obviously Jimmy referenced the 20 point lead they had in game two. They had a 19 point lead in game five, and at one point in the contest, they had a 38 to 14 edge in paint points. That lead ended up just being six points by the end of the contest, 50 to 44 in favor of the Cavs. My thing, and I’m not trying to point fingers, but I think there’s going to be bigger conversations. We’re talking about the viability again, just like last year of Darius Garland and Jared Allen, how they fit with this team and those different assets and how they play alongside the readiness of the players on this roster. Jared Allen having a great first quarter, 3 of 3 from the field and having three rebounds. He had more points, field goal attempts, field goals made, rebounds than he had in one quarter of Game five than he had in the entirety of Game four. So we’re on the edge of our seat. This is the Jared Allen that we needed. This is the Jared Allen that the Cavs wanted to have in Game three. That’s how they helped him get get into the lead with the paint points and how they were taking over the physicality on the interior. Then for the remainder of the game, Jared Allen has one rebound, right? Unacceptable. And I think in the second quarter there was a moment where Miles Turner rejected Jared Allen. And after that, it just felt like Jarrett was beside himself, not only on the offensive end, but on the defensive end as well. Getting caught in, in rotations, getting caught, looking at the ball, getting caught, not moving, guarding on the perimeter. And I wrote about this for my buzzer story after tonight’s game. I just think Jared Allen is a guy that he fought so hard to be able to show that he could play 82 games in a regular season. He was available in the playoffs this year, but then you just evaporate into thin air when the team needs you most. That’s the opposite of what you had been doing all season. And I think it’s hard to have this conversation because of the relationship that Kenny Atkinson and Jared Allen have. But we saw it with that toggling in the fourth quarter. Like Kenny was like, I want you to be out there. I need you to be out there for us to be able to just hold on to this. But you’re not giving me anything. And I think there’s a realization of who, as Chris was saying, who is ready to help take this team to the next level. And I’m not so sure that Jared Allen is. It just simply because of what he wasn’t able to accomplish in a series where we knew he was going to be at a disadvantage and he didn’t show the capability of making adjustments and being able to simply be there for his guys when needed most. And I think it’s. It’s more hurtful to say because he wasn’t there last year, and then you’re here this year and you made maybe a similar, if not lesser impact.
Jimmy Watkins: Can I defend Ja for a second? For starters, before game four, he was 17 and 10 on 70% shooting in these playoffs. Rock solid Miami Heat, we’ve already established. Not a real playoff team. We respected them too much. The Cavs, clearly, the jump in competition played a role, by the way. Maybe that should be a thing for, like, a quarter, but after that, like, step it up, buddy.
Chris Fedor: All right?
Jimmy Watkins: It’s the playoffs. But I will say this about Jared Allen. Everything that Jared Allen does. Jared Allen’s activity is a function of how involved he feels in other areas of the game, and how involved he is in other areas of the game is not necessarily within his control. And I think that while Jared Allen deserves a ton of criticism for not being able to manufacture that energy himself and not getting more rebounds, and yes, Miles Turner was bullying him at times. Like, you just gotta be stronger with the ball in your hands. Okay, It’s. It was noticeable. It can’t be. It can’t be. Every time someone tips the scales above 260, you shrink. Can’t have that. Can’t have that. But the Cavs broke. And when the Cavs break, I feel like Jared Allen’s gonna break. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Like, I think Jared Allen’s performance is a function of his environment all the time. And when the Cavs are functioning at a high level, Jared Allen looks awesome. And when the Cavs are not functioning at a high level, you get moments like this where he disappears. Because you can’t go over there, Chapstaff, and say, give me the ball. You know, like, it has to be. Everything else has to be working around him. So, again, deserves criticism. But he’s a cog in the machine. The machine was. There was a lot going wrong with it.
Ethan Sands: That goes hand in hand with playoff readiness, does it not? Like, you cannot succumb to the environment if you’re going to be a core football member.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s his literal job. Okay, so, like, what do you want Jared Allen to do?
Ethan Sands: His energy shouldn’t depreciate because the intensity of the game becomes too much, right? I’m not saying that’s why.
Jimmy Watkins: I don’t know that that’s why that’s happening. Part of the reason why I think it’s because he doesn’t get the ball. And that’s how most big men operate.
Ethan Sands: I’m not talking about scoring. I’m talking about being active defensively. I’m talking about being on the boards. I’m talking about, like, we all understand Jared Allen is in the system of the offense, right? But that’s not why Jared Allen is mainly on the floor for the Cavs. He’s on the floor to get boards. He’s on the floor to play defense. He’s on the floor to be physical and play with energy. He wasn’t doing that.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m just saying those things are connected to how involved he feels. Chris, go ahead.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. I think the other thing is that Jarrett was brought out to the perimeter in this series, and I think we knew that that was going to happen. Miles Turner is a stretch big. Pascal Siakam can play out there on the perimeter. The Cavs did some different things on the defensive end of the floor with their zone. And sometimes Evan Mobley was up high, sometimes Jarrett Allen was down low, sometimes Jarrett Allen was out on the perimeter. So, I mean, I think you have to acknowledge the fact that part of the reason why Jarrett wasn’t getting the rebounds around the rim is because he wasn’t in position to get those. Because he was out there on the perimeter, because he was guarding Tyrese Halliburton on switches, or he was guarding Aaron Neesmith on switches, or he was guarding Andrew Nemhard on switches. So, like the positions that the Cavs put Jared in because of their switch heavy approach, that didn’t do him a lot of favors. That it was very similar to me, if you go back to two years ago in the Knicks series, like, everybody harped on Jarrett not getting rebounds, not getting rebounds, but he was the guy that was blitzing Jalen Brunson, and then he had to recover, and he was behind every single player that was in the paint because he was running from the perimeter. In this series, it was kind of similar. You know, he had to get out to the perimeter to contest those shots and defend on an island and at the same time try and get himself back into position. So that he could get rebounds. And I think it was a difficult assignment, and I think we always knew that it was going to be a difficult assignment for him in this matchup against this particular opponent, against their spacing, against their speed and quickness, and sometimes that’s what the playoffs are about. And I guess the big takeaway from me with all of that is, you know, if he is a sometimes player or certain matchup type player, can you really look at him as a core member of this team, you know what I’m saying?
Jimmy Watkins: Or pay him $30 million?
Chris Fedor: Or pay him $30 million. Because I think we do understand that there are certain matchups that are going to be problematic for him. And if that’s going to be the case, like, how do you work your way around that? Like, what kinds of things do you have to do from a roster composition to make that a little bit more manageable? And I think that’s a hard answer for this organization moving forward.
Ethan Sands: So the next question would have to come based on the fourth quarter and something that Jimmy was mentioning, how Kenny was operating with it. What do you think was the correct answer that was not gone to for this Cavs team?
Chris Fedor: Because, oh, there wasn’t one. No, there wasn’t one. I think the reality became the reality as this series unfolded. And I think at some point, as a coach, you try to go what you think is the best of bad options. And Indiana was a really difficult matchup. Indiana was always going to be a really difficult matchup. And I thought Rick Carlisle was brilliant with a lot of the stuff that he did. I also thought that he had what turned out to be a more reliable roster. Like, one of the things that we said coming into this series is okay, if you’re in the schoolyard and you’re picking all these guys and you’re just running through all of them. Who’s your first pick? Who’s your second pick? Who’s your third pick? And coming into this series, we thought a lot of Cavs players would be near the top of that, Certainly Donovan number one. And then you keep going on and on and on. It certainly didn’t play itself out that way. And I think part of that had to do with how Rick Carlisle was able to manage situations, the adjustments he was able to make. It turned out as the series progressed that he had more reliable options. He had more chess pieces that could move in different kind of ways. And, you know, when Kenny Atkinson has to go with like, basically offense, defense stuff for the final six minutes of the fourth quarter, I think that’s pretty telling. When he feels he needed to bench Ty Jerome in the first half because he was having such a bad series, when he felt like at times he needed to go to a defense heavy lineup that did not work. I mean, I think that tells you all you need to know. He was searching. He was out there searching, scrambling to try and find solutions to a lot of the stuff that, that Rick Carlisle and the Pacers were throwing at the Cavs. And he didn’t find those answers in part because I don’t know that he had those answers.
Jimmy Watkins: So as the idiot who wrote Cavs in five because of the playoff golden rule, which is they had better players. Oops. I feel like I need to address this. It’s not just the same guy’s been emailing me after every pace of win, just hammering me, like, what am I supposed to say? You’re right, dude. It’s not just that, like, okay, Darius was in the top five draft pick in this series. Let’s say Evan Mobley, maybe fringe top five draft pick if we’re being generous. Game three was awesome. Game three was awesome. No, okay. Donovan, sure. It’s also like Kenny said something tonight, like to try to avoid the injury excuse. Like we’ve been the best 6 through 10 team in the league all year. Bench got outscored in three straight games coming into tonight. And I think the final bench talent was like pacers plus 40 something for the series. I haven’t done all the math yet, but it was like, I think it was like 167 to 117 coming into tonight. And I know the Cavs won it by a little bit tonight, but like, didn’t see that coming. Thomas Bryant, coming out party tonight. Sure. And more as many points tonight as he did in the four previous games in the series combined tonight. Nine, by the way. He didn’t. Not like he killed it. Obi Toppin, awesome. Benedict Matheran, awesome. This is the other point, this idea that like the Pacers are like this crazy experienced playoff team. Okay. Pascal Siakam is. Miles Turner has played in like 50 something playoff games. But most of those are just first round L’s. Most of them are first round L’s. Same with TJ McConnell. Tyrus Albertan has played like 20 something playoff games. This is not. We’re not talking about the Celtics, we’re.
Chris Fedor: Talking about Indiana compared to the Cavs. And that becomes a drastic difference. It does.
Jimmy Watkins: Is it? Is it a drastic difference?
Chris Fedor: Yes. With the exception of Tristan Thompson, Max Drus And Donovan Mitchell, of course, it’s a drastic difference.
Jimmy Watkins: Like Darius Garland has played in as many playoff games as Tyrese Benedict Matheran watched the playoffs last year. Jairus Walker watched the playoffs last year. Obi toppin comparable Miles Turner Again, more games.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, but it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. Experience is experience, whether it’s the first round, second round, or the conference finals.
Jimmy Watkins: I hear what you’re saying and rick.
Chris Fedor: Carlisle’s like 200 to 5.
Jimmy Watkins: Sure.
Chris Fedor: Coming in.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s huge.
Chris Fedor: Or something like that.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s huge. Yes. Rick Carlisle vs. Kennedy, not a fair fight in the playoff experience category, but player wise, I just think you need to do better. Like the experience. That conversation doesn’t sway me. You guys just did poorly.
Ethan Sands: So the main question that I was trying to get to at the end of the fourth quarter is when Darius Garland obviously re aggravates the toe injury and is like by the opposite side of the scorers table, like reaching down to try and figure out if he’s going to be able to. Able to even play for the remaining however many minutes. Do you think it was wise that Kenny Atkinson stuck with Darius in that situation?
Chris Fedor: What did you want him to do differently? Who do you want him to go to instead?
Ethan Sands: I think Ty Jerome was on the bench at that point and Ty Jerome had been on a heater at that point, so I would have gone that way.
Jimmy Watkins: There’s a save a player from himself argument here and eventually Darius was so limpy that, you know, it just had to be done. But Ty Jerome, who coming into Tonight had scored 11 total points in his last three games on 12% shooting. I get it. He did have a nice little stretch there at the third, fourth, like I told again, another pre pod combo. I think if Ty Jerome doesn’t do that, there’s a chance the Cavs lose this game by like 15, 20 points because the arena was so dead and they were so in search of. Ty Jerome does have like a unique relationship with this crowd. Nothing gets this crowd. I mean, like, besides like a Donovan poster, I feel like Ty Jerome pull up 3 is just like freaking monster energy drinks to these people. I love it. I love that they have that relationship. But yeah, the other, you know, what else was happening with Tyrone? My goodness. They were going after him.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, they were.
Jimmy Watkins: My goodness. He was giving those points back. I hear ya. Darius clearly didn’t have it tonight. Respect him for gutting it out, but he was not very good in basically any regard. Again, giving you an extra ball handler, but at that point to nitpick Kenny on that stuff. It sounded like we’re talking about J.B. bickerstaff again.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, I thought that was such an insignificant spot of the game, to be perfectly honest with you. Like, I thought the game ended the minute that Miles Turner went to the free throw line and put Indiana up by nine coming out of that timeout. Now, obviously it didn’t end there. You know, Donovan had some miraculous shots. DeAndre Hunter got fouled on a three pointer. But that was the moment to me when they went up nine. Those foul shots coming out of the timeout. That’s. That’s honestly when I started, like really writing my gamer and filling it in with all the stuff as if it was a Cavs loss to me. So I just think like those kind of minor decisions were so insignificant when talking about the overarching theme of this series.
Jimmy Watkins: We’re back at square one, aren’t we? Like Kenny, let’s. Let’s question all these lineup decisions. Or is the adjustment just play better like this? That’s. We were talking about this time last year with J.B. bickerstaff, man, that’s. I don’t. That is an indictment of the people in that locker room or the way. Or the way this roster is built or both or something like that.
Chris Fedor: Look, I think the truth is there was one player for the Cavs that played to his standard one in this entire series, and it was Donovan Mitchell. Right. Anybody want to push for somebody? I mean, you probably would have said Max Stru before tonight’s game, but over nine from the field, over six from three point range, that’s not a good lasting image. So like, if Evan Mobley is not going to be the best, the second best player in the series that he was supposed to be, if he’s not going to play like a second team all NBA player, that he’s going to be going to be hard if Darius Garland is not going to play like the All Star that he is. Like, I’m going to focus on those guys first. Right. Because more is expected of those guys. More should be expected of those guys because they’re more important to the success of this team. But you can keep going down the list. Like if DeAndre Hunter plays like the guy that the Cavs acquired from the Atlanta Hawks, who is supposed to fill in the gaps and be a missing piece of this thing, then it’s a more competitive series. I don’t know if they win the series, but it’s certainly a more competitive series. So me like just when it comes to evaluating this whole series and a 41 series loss, like I’m looking at Darius, I’m looking at Evan now. Part of it is I’m also looking at Kenny because the involvement of Evan, he didn’t play a single game, I don’t think in the playoffs, honestly, where he got more than 13 field goal attempts. Like that wasn’t cavsy from the regular season. So like, I think if you’re slicing up the blame plot, the blame pie, there’s a lot to go around with the exception of Donovan Mitchell. Like he’s the only one who played to his level and even that like is a little bit funky because his shooting numbers weren’t there, his three point numbers weren’t there, but like he found other ways to be successful and kind of carry this offense. So you know Indiana is good and if your best players are not going to play to that level, then it’s going to be really, really hard for you to compete no matter like what coaching moves you try to make.
Jimmy Watkins: You know, what about Donovan though? Like Donovan Mitchell gives you three straight 30 point games. Two of those are 40 point games. Yeah, you just got to win those. They went one and two in those and two of them were at home. Sounds like crazy talk. I know, that’s like implausible. I will, I will defend Evan a little bit further. Look at me. Stand up for the tall guys. This never happens. Jared Allen’s getting no rebounds. I don’t even mention it. I do mention it, but I’m not, I’m not hammering him for it. Evan Mobley not being assertive. It’s not all like, it’s, it’s, it’s clearly a shared thing where Evan Mobley at some point just needs to say, give me the ball. The guards need to give him the ball and Kenny’s needs to tell him to give him the ball. But here’s what I’ll tell you. Evan Mobley was really good in the first quarter tonight. They were running a lot through him and it looked like that was something that this had legs like, oh, this could really, really extend the series with this stuff. And they just stopped fricking doing it. Last three games of the series, MMOB averaged seven first quarter points per game. Two of them were double digit quarters in the second quarters. After those two shots per quarter, after this guy, you tell me is the most important player on your team, he’s one of the most improved offensive players in, in the league. It’s just like it’s so crazy me. You’re telling me all these things about how awesome this guy is and you don’t give him the ball. Make that make sense to me. I can’t.
Ethan Sands: There was a lot of lip service throughout this entire season, to be honest. And just because I know we have another podcast that’ll come out tomorrow after we do end of season conversations. I don’t want to keep this lingering too long. So I’m a read the stat from Mike Lucas and I talked to him about this before the game and he was like, hopefully we don’t have to use it. But it came to fruition. Sixteen teams in NBA history have ever won 64 or more regular season games with an average margin of victory of nine or more points. The Cavs and the OKC Thunder both did it this year. Of the 14 prior, so not including the Cavs and OKC this year, 13 reached the NBA Finals. That other team that didn’t have, I believe it was the 2016 San Antonio Spurs. Twelve of the 13 teams that reached the Finals won the championship. So obviously we also know that the OKC Thunder won tonight. They’re now 32 series lead against the Denver Nuggets. The Cavs have been bounced from the playoffs. They are now a part of history in a negative way as much as they had a positive year. A regular season that was historic with so many different records either matched or broken, were set entirely where they had the opportunity to separate themselves from legacies set before them. Precedent. All these things kind of came down to a crashing halt and now we’re back to square one. As Jimmy was saying, back to these conversations where we don’t know what is to come in the offseason. And if anybody follows Dan Gilbert on social media, he said it might have been heartbreaking, but we will address the the areas that need to be fixed. Take that however you want to.
Chris Fedor: I think that’s good that he put that out there. It shows a level of recognition that there are problems with this team, that even though they won 64 games, even though they were in the number one seed in the Eastern Conference, there are flaws. And those flaws showed themselves throughout the course of this series. And it’s going to have to be a proactive approach. It’s going to have to be a mirror test. And there’s just no way, given the resume that the Cavs had like that resume doesn’t point to early exit in the playoffs. It just doesn’t. Not over the course of history, but it did for this team. And that’s not Acceptable. That’s not good enough. They were talking about a championship period. Like they weren’t good enough. They aren’t good enough, and they have to find a way to become good enough. And Dan Gilbert, for him to recognize that, I think that’s good. Now Kobe Altman has to recognize that. Mike Gansey has to recognize that. John Nichols has to recognize that. Everybody in the front office has to recognize the same thing. Like, I think there are legitimate things that they need to fix with this roster that are not going to happen organically. It’s going to have to be an external improvement this time.
Ethan Sands: I’m going to say this last thing and then let Jimmy get us out of here with his last take. But y’ all remember how somber the ambiance was. The environment was when Kenny Atkinson had to let go of George Niang and Karis Lavert in the middle of the season. Could you imagine if he has to get rid of one of the players that he helped bring up, he helped churn through this season?
Chris Fedor: That’s not the one. I think you’re looking in the wrong direction, honestly.
Ethan Sands: I’m not saying any names. I’m just saying, Chris, you talk about the upper portions of the organization have to having to accept this. I think it’s also Kenny Atkinson, who. Who is known as a player development coach, who becomes super attached to all of the players who he has the opportunity of coaching. I think any player that would have to be taken away from this roster would not only affect him, but it’s something that he would have a hard time with. So I’m not necessarily putting any names out there, but I’m saying that there feels like there will be changes this offseason. And we talked about it before today’s game about the potential if things did not go the Cavs way and how, as Jimmy mentioned in that podcast, fireworks. So, Jimmy, get us out of here with your last take.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, to what you guys are saying, it would be quite the thing to build an entire season around camaraderie and chemistry and all that, and then say, okay, you’re not good enough. Kick you out of the cool locker room, our super fun locker room. You don’t get to be here anymore. That is a difficult conversation, whoever it is. That’s sports to expand on, on our guys stat here, because 64 wins is kind of. I mean, that’s how many wins the Caps had. But it’s like kind of a strange. I went 60 wins because I use the same stat in my. In my buzzer, and that 60 wins also throws the Celtics of this year into the mix. We have three teams in the same year we have this 60 wins plus nine point differential. It’s been a while like there’s only 23 of these teams, 60 wins, nine plus nine point differential and to either point, 15 of them have won the title. Cavs are the fifth one to not advance to the conference finals. And a couple things I notice teams that first of all, most teams that do this have done this are before 2000 and most of the teams that have won the title are before 2000. So that to me we’re having these conversations at large about the difference between the playoffs and the regular season has never been larger. I think that data point might suggest that a little bit concerning part made the caps. Two teams in Modern ish let’s say since 2010 that have missed out 60 wins plus 9 point differential were out west because the Western Conference is always a freaking monster. Seems like for two decades now we got 50 win eight seats. All right, the east as obviously after what we’ve seen the last five games, we respect the Pacers, we respect the Pacers, but the east is still perceived as the much weaker conference. So for this to happen to the Cavs in the second round out east, it’s just another layer of how bad of a look this is for them.
Ethan Sands: Alrighty. Chris, anything before we go?
Chris Fedor: No. You said Jimmy was going to get the last thought, so I let Jimmy have the last thought.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, I just see your mind wheels turning, so wanted to give you the last laughs hurrah. If you wanted it.
Chris Fedor: No, I’m good.
Ethan Sands: Okay. Well, with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Don’t think just because the cast season is over that we are not going to be still giving you insights to Subtext. Also, we will still be doing hey Chris podcast throughout the summer. So if you have questions about anything going on, any trades, any moves, any decisions, this is where you can have your voices heard. So to do all of that, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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