CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast, hosts Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins discuss the Cavs’ end-of-season reflections and the potential moves the Cavs could make to bolster their roster and playoff chances.
Takeaways:
The Cavaliers need to develop a tougher mentality to compete effectively.
Coaching styles significantly impact team culture and player performance.
Mental toughness can be cultivated but may require external influences.
Recent playoff losses have highlighted the need for self-reflection and growth.
The salary cap situation complicates potential roster changes for the Cavaliers.
The team has shown success but must address weaknesses exposed in the playoffs.
Urgency is required from the front office to make impactful decisions.
The Cavaliers’ core players need to step up and learn from past experiences.
Exploring trade options could provide the team with necessary improvements. The Cavs face significant logistical challenges for the upcoming season.
Free agency options are limited, making retention of current players vital.
Dan Gilbert’s willingness to spend may be tested after recent playoff exits.
The character and toughness of players are essential for playoff success.
The Cavs must learn from the Celtics’ approach to adversity.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me on today’s episode, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins. And we guys have gotten to talk to a lot of different players as their end of season press conferences today on Wednesday afternoon. And, and Chris, with everything that this season has encapsulated and how the different players broke it down on different areas that they saw how the season ended, successfulness, unsuccessfulness, what did you take away and what was the line that stuck out to you the most from today’s press conferences?
Chris Fedor: So, guys, remember last year when so many of the players were saying something without saying something, like they were essentially shouting it from the rooftops. That and even the organization was as well, that they thought coaching was a problem, that they thought coaching held them back, that they had enough talent and they needed somebody else that was going to come in here, put in a system both offensively and defensively to better maximize that talent. That’s what they were saying all of last year. Felt like today they were sending a clear message about what the next step is for this organization. And they’ve got to get tougher. They’re. They’ve got to get more physical. And I think that’s a little bit easier said than done. Okay. Because I think Kenny Atkinson has decided about the kind of culture that he wants to put in place here in Cleveland. And that’s fine. Some teams are very, very successful with a culture of joy, and that’s what Kenny wants. He wants it very Golden State warriors. Like, he wants them to have fun. He wants it to be more of a loose environment. Shoot arounds are voluntary as opposed to mandatory. Right. Some practice days turn into recovery days because he understands the grind of the regular season. And for this team where they are, it’s more important what they do in the postseason. So how do we manage the regular season? How do we navigate that schedule? But there is a culture that he has brought here, and it’s very different than JB Bickerstaff. JB held people accountable. JB was strict. JB had certain rules about wearing hoodies and wearing earrings. He had a specific schedule in place when it came to practice, when it came to shoot around, like those things were going to happen because that’s just how he is. Not every coach sees it the same kind of way, but because Kenny sees it a certain kind of way and because they don’t have like the most physically imposing roster, I think we can say that their roster is built on talent and skill as opposed to physicality. Like, if they were going to win the series against Indiana, it’s because their talent and their skill was going to be overwhelming. Not because they bullied the Pacers, not because they out toughed the Pacers. So if that’s how they’re built and if that’s the culture that they have in place, they’re going to have to find a way to manufacture toughness. They’re going to have to find a way to manufacture physicality. And to me, that points to external maneuvers and bring people outside this organization that are tough, that are more physical, that are built a different kind of way than some of these other guys on this roster. But it was clear in listening to everybody that toughness, both physically and mentally, was at the forefront of everything that they thought went wrong in the series against Indiana. And I think it’s hard to argue with that.
Jimmy Watkins: You know what’s funny about that? Can’t out tough the Pacers. They weren’t able to out tough the Pacers. Rick Carlisle. Carlisle, that was a tough. It’s like Louisville. Carlisle. Carlisle, on multiple occasions in the series kind of laughed at the notion that we’re this big, bruising team. Their brand of physicality is different. He said this, right? It’s a persistent. Andrew Nemhard is a gnat on your hip the entire game.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: I would say Aaron Denise Smith actually does look like a pain to play against, like more of a physically imposing guy, but like they’re just coming at you all the time. That’s their brand of toughness. I think the JB Kenny conversation in this regard is really interesting too, because given what we’ve seen in the playoffs, I actually think on a foundational level, I don’t think JB had the wrong read with this team. Now, granted, JB is going to operate this way in pretty much every setting. And he also started with basically a blank slate. Right. So he’s trying to whip these young kids into shape essentially. But I don’t think there’s many people who disagree with the following. The Cavs could use a kick in the ass. That couldn’t hurt anybody. The thing about the Golden State culture is that a lot of these guys were already established. I mean, obviously Steph wasn’t capitalist Stephen till Steve Kerr got there. Same with Clay. Same with Draymond. Draymond always had an edge to him.
Chris Fedor: Yep.
Jimmy Watkins: Steph has always been above the shoulders, a killer. Thompson, above the shoulders, killer. Andrew Dala. Nice mix of veterans in There. Sean Livingston had been through a lot in his career by the time he got to Golden State as well. Andrew Bogut, you don’t want to mess with that guy that was already there. So Steve Kerr, who again, is probably gonna install this kind of culture regardless, had the right match. Now, Kenny, clearly something worked about the culture that Kenny installed. We talked a lot about empowerment and guys feeling free and all that sort of stuff. I think that all the little small things that he does interpersonally makes a difference on the court in that way. He clearly believes that, too. It’s just that the Cavs don’t have enough of those Golden State warriors guys, those types of guys, to make it as strong of a fit.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: We’ve talked about this before. I personally believe that Don Mitchell and Max Struse, I’m going to war with those dudes. If we’re having a 100 loose ball contest, I want those guys on my team. I don’t know that I’m saying that about a lot of the other core members of this team. So the conclusion and the reason I asked this question, what, seven, six times today, some version of how much do you think mental toughness can be taught or learned versus it’s just in you? And they all said some version of, for the most part, like, experience can teach you. And I get that is true. That is true. But how much experience do you need? Like, in theory, that Knicks experience should have taught you seven games against Orlando could have taught you. Playing shorthanded against the Celtics could have taught you summer of. Is Donovan Mitchell leaving the whole season last year, man. Is Donovan Mitchell leaving? Darius Garland’s hurt. Evan Moe was hurt. Now with playoff adversity.
Chris Fedor: Different.
Jimmy Watkins: Different, yeah. But if it was just as simple. And by the way, a lot of guys said today, we think that the regular season can help us in some regards, build our mental toughness. I just don’t know that I’m there. I think needs to be part of your culture. I think it can. If you have enough guys around. Some of these other guys who have the kids say, have that dog in them, I think it can rub off. And I think if you have enough of those guys, then if you have a majority of those guys, the minority doesn’t stand out as much. But as far as, like, changing, I’m with Chris. I think it might need to come from the outside.
Ethan Sands: I agree with you. I think it’s. It’s in you. It’s not on you. You literally have to have that mindset as you walk into the building. As I tried to learn about the Cavaliers history, as I was coming up on this team, it was more so, like, Everybody in the 2016 team, like, from game one, they were out on the court, ready to go. The other team hadn’t even come out to the court yet. Like, they were mentally locked in from the outset. Right. And I think, Jimmy, you’re absolutely right. Donovan Mitchell and Max Drew are the two guys that come to mind where I’m like, you don’t have to worry about what they’re thinking. You don’t have to worry about their mentality, their mindset. You know, when a push comes to shove, they’re going to get after it. And I’m not trying to call out everybody else on the team, but genuinely speaking, I think the only other person I can think of, and this is going to be funny because he’s not a core member and could potentially be off this team at the end of the summer. Sam Merrill is wired that way. To me, Sam Merrill is a guy that gets after it, is mentally wired to compete.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I think Isaac Kikoro, for sure.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking, too.
Ethan Sands: I think those two guys are mentally wired that way to get after it. Sam Merrill, through his experience of having to come up through college and not being in the best of shape and having to earn his way through the NBA, and then Isaac Okoro, as we’ve talked about coming and getting thrown into the fire of J.B. bickerstaff’s team that year. Right. And having to adjust to the NBA. I don’t know if there’s a lot of guys outside of that. That’s less than one handful of guys that we feel are competitively driven through the mindset of simply, I don’t want to lose. I want to be better than everybody else on the floor. Is there anybody else that comes to mind for you guys?
Chris Fedor: No, there isn’t. But I want to go back to something that Jimmy said when you were talking about, like, how much experience do you need? Because I think how you lose a series and how you respond to how you lost that series, I think that matters in the context of this conversation. And I think this was the first loss for this organization that they just didn’t have an out. You know what I mean? If you think about the Knicks series, they could easily say, well, it was too early for us. We weren’t ready yet. It was the first year of Donovan Mitchell. It was the first experience for Evan Mobley. It was the first experience for Darius Garland. We had future podcaster Danny Green getting big minutes in that series. We have Lamar Stevens, who has bounced around the NBA since leaving Cleveland, getting big minutes in that series. Ricky Rubio got yanked out of the rotation, but then he retired. So it’s like, I think there was a reality that they accepted with that team and that was in the early stages of their progression as an organization. So they were able to say all those different things, right? And then last year they were able to say, we didn’t have Jared Allen for eight games in the playoffs. We didn’t have Donovan Mitchell for the final two. And he, even before the final two, he was dragging his leg. First his knee, then his calf. So in listening to the guys earlier this afternoon, this was the first one where they just didn’t have, like, the parachute. And I think they understood this was a missed opportunity. I think they understood that they didn’t play to their standard. I think they understood. And I think part of the reason why it was so painful is because they expected more. And this was the first time in listening to these guys talk about a playoff loss that it felt like this, that it came across like this. And I think this is the playoff loss that is illuminating to a lot of these guys and how Darius Garland responds, how Evan Mobley responds, how Jared Allen responds. If these guys are still on the roster, I think it’s going to be a different level of fuel and a different level of motivation and a different level of eye opening than the previous two playoff series losses.
Ethan Sands: So let me say this. We talked a little bit about this yesterday, and we didn’t get into a whole lot of it because we figured we would do this today after talking to these guys. And also, Chris, you mentioned having a feel for this organization. Of course, you are the man on the mission, on the beat. Do you think this core four will be intact by the end of the off season?
Chris Fedor: Guys, I think this is a nuanced and a complex conversation, and I think it starts here. I think it starts with the salary cap situation that they’re currently in. This is going to be an apron team. This is going to be a second apron team. And when you get to that level, it becomes really restrictive. The kinds of trades that you can make, the kinds of players that you can bring in, and when you usually get to that second apron level, your team is your team and you just keep it because you feel good enough about it to go that deep into the salary cap. And you just don’t have a lot of flexibility from a salary cap perspective and from a roster perspective to make all these kinds of drastic moves in saying that, I think this is the kind of playoff loss that makes the front office consider it more than they have in the past. I think this is the kind of playoff loss that you don’t attach excuses to, that you don’t attach. Yeah, buts to. I think you have a real opportunity here to look in the mirror and have a full on evaluation, top to bottom and try to determine, okay, what’s the best path forward for us. And the other thing that makes this all complicated is that you know this core group has been successful to some level, right? Not to the level that this organization wanted this year, not to the level that so many people around town were expecting from this team. But there has been a level of success like you can’t just ignore and cast aside 64 wins. You can’t. I’m sorry, you can’t just ignore and cast aside top 10 in offense and defense. You can’t just ignore and cast aside a historically great offense. You can’t just ignore and cast aside three all Stars, three on the same roster. You can’t just ignore and cast aside two members of the all NBA team. Like those things happened, that that’s what this team has going for it. And I think there’s a level of internal development that can still happen with Darius, with Jarrett, with Evan Mobley, maybe even with Donovan Mitchell. And I think the Cavs have to determine, okay, it’s really, really difficult to quantify that, but how much can we project that forward? And if they’re going to make a move, if they’re going to listen to any kind of conversation about Darius Garland or about Jared Allen, they have to get an offer from another team that they’re willing to say yes to, that they think is going to make them better and allow them to take that next step that maybe they don’t believe that they can take organically. And I think the salary cap situation that they’re in, I think some of the, the, the other components of what’s going to happen around the NBA this offseason, it just, I find it hard to believe that they’re going to get an offer that they’re going to be willing to say yes to. And it would just be a lot better in their own mind to proceed forward with what they already have on this roster, which is really freaking good. Maybe not Boston good, maybe not championship good yet, but it’s really freaking good.
Jimmy Watkins: So I would say while, no, you cannot dismiss all of the regular season accolades when they are accompanied by stark drop offs in the playoffs. I think I’m not writing them off, but I am taking them with a grain of salt. Cavs in the second round Were Chris mentioned today a couple times the worst defense in the second round. Their defensive rating would have ranked high 20s during the regular season around 117.7. Is that what it was? Something like that. Their offense would have ranked hovered around 20th this league best offense against the Pacers team that is doing their their second half surge. Top tennis defense. But the Cavs were the best offense in the league against top 10 defenses as well. So injury like a lot of context to be to be sorted through here. Obviously injuries, guys that you are counting on to be engines in these areas not themselves. But I don’t know that’s, that’s gonna go over very well if they just throw their hands up and say yeah, I don’t know that we can do much better. To this point I’ve thought that Kobe Altman’s a pretty bold, pretty darn bold gm. I mean you did your slow rebuild with your Evan Mobley pick, your Darius Scarlet pick, both great picks foundation of this build Donovan Mitchell trade. That’s a big risk.
Chris Fedor: But they’ve never had the restrictions that come with being a second apron team.
Jimmy Watkins: So I would argue that while I understand those restrictions, I think they need to be met with urgency, as many avenues as possible that you can explore. You should try to explore them because your restrictions are only going to get more difficult as you keep locking this team in. And if you keep, if you get to the point next summer where you think it’s time to break up the core four, that probably means that someone’s value went down because it didn’t go well again. So I feel like there’s an urgency of the moment where the Cavs have exited the playoffs three straight years in disappointing fashion. Context worthy context in each situation. First playoff run, injuries last year, injuries this year. But a lot of teams in a vacuum hitting their head against the same or similar ceiling three straight seasons are thinking okay, I need to shake this snow globe a little bit and then this again. Second apron does make it hard for you, but get creative. I’m no cap wizard. I have not been. I’ve not been up on my Nate Duncan listening. I need to get so I can, so I can best serve the audience. I need to get tapped back in with Nate Duncan and Danny LaRue so they can teach me more about cap minutia in our new cap reality. Because it’s going to get real for the Caps here. They are going to be a second apron team.
Chris Fedor: And so what’s the move that you think they should consider?
Jimmy Watkins: Well, I have a big swing. I have a big swing. Oh, I’m.
Chris Fedor: Have you been on the ESPN trade machine lately?
Jimmy Watkins: I haven’t been in the machine, but conceptually. Conceptually, Chris is just going to hit me with, you can’t do this. Well, maybe, but I don’t know. I think you call the folks in Milwaukee and you have a conversation about everything that isn’t nailed to the floor. That’s what I would say. Everyone but Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley. Make it work. Give them the trade machine. Make it work. If you can find from the remainder of our roster something that you want and it will in return give us Giannis Antetokounmpo, we’ll do it.
Chris Fedor: We’ll do it.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s how I feel. Because here’s the thing, making that move is, again, a very bold move. But I would say two things. Giannis, throughout the course of his career, has not seemed to be motivated by the same types of things as your average superstar. Location seems to mean less than winning more, community more, that sort of thing. I mean, there’s reports that he’s interested in no state tax. Obviously we have state tax here, but Jimmy has him. Get on the phone. Let’s see what we can do here. While you’re negotiating the stadium deal, can we get a Yanis exception?
Chris Fedor: What the hell are the Cavs offering Milwaukee that is going to make Milwaukee say yes.
Jimmy Watkins: Here’s how I think it goes.
Chris Fedor: Giannis Ring.
Jimmy Watkins: Here, here, here.
Chris Fedor: Ring, Ring. In the NBA is going to be interested in Giannis.
Jimmy Watkins: Ring, Ring, Ring. The phone is ringing.
Chris Fedor: To offer than the cavalry.
Jimmy Watkins: The phone is ringing. The Milwaukee Bucks are picking up the phone. Hi, I’m Kobe Altman and I have Darius Garland, Jared Allen, whatever draft capital. Darius Garland, Jared Allen.
Chris Fedor: My franchise has gone downhill since I took over.
Jimmy Watkins: Our fourth string quarterback’s pretty fun though, I think. Darius Garland, Jared Allen, whatever else isn’t nailed to the floor.
Chris Fedor: Nice talking to you, Kobe. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Jimmy Watkins: You want to send back some bad salary?
Chris Fedor: Overall pick, the reigning rookie of the year, Stefan Castle. Thanks.
Jimmy Watkins: Appreciate it. Okay, let’s get real. Let’s get real. Talking to you, Evan Mobley.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, now there’s a conversation.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, yeah.
Chris Fedor: Now there’s a conversation. Who’s doing that?
Jimmy Watkins: Do you want to win a championship or do you want to keep opening Russian doll legs for the next five years? I think if the Cavs pair Giannis and Donovan championship, nothing’s guaranteed in life. It accelerates the window. I understand it shrinks the window. But like, is Evan Mobley ever going to be honest? Probably not. Probably not. Most people are.
Chris Fedor: That becomes a little bit more fascinating. That makes the Cavs a little bit more competitive. Like if, if they had a willingness to even consider that, that makes the Cavs more competitive for some of these bigger name guys that, that are out there this offseason. I just don’t think they would ever consider that.
Ethan Sands: So let me do some housekeeping for the fans listening, trying to figure out what we’re talking about with second April and everything. Because sure, we’re in the, we’re in the off season now. We might be getting some new listeners. So The Cavs are $27.3 million over the projected 2026 luxury tax line with only 10 players under contract after the 2025 season. So even if they fill the last four roster spots with minimum contracts, the Cavs will be roughly $34 million over the tax and $15 million over the projected second apron line of $207.8 million. So that’s before trying to bring back free agents like Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill, who we mentioned earlier, or who knows, trying to go get a different wing or whatever. The thing about the second apron that Chris has tried to allude to, it’s that the Cavs can’t sign any free agents for more than the minimum, can’t make any trades that aggregate salary or take on more money than is sent out, can’t sign and trade, they’re free agents and can’t use cash in trades to incentivize salary dumps. So I think when we talk about the complications of the second apron, like Chris was saying, the Cavs have not experienced it yet. So it’s going to be a difficult offseason. Not only conversations, but also how much is Dan Gilbert willing to go into this tax. What is Dan Gilbert willing to do? Right? And we saw the tweet, what he said about wanting to figure out the solutions for this team to move forward. And obviously the Giannis conversation is probably the biggest fish in the water this offseason, obviously. But what does that leave you with? You building around Donovan, Mitchell, Max Donovan and Yanis.
Chris Fedor: That’s a pretty good start.
Ethan Sands: I hear you, but what I’m saying is I think the intrigue is pairing Giannis with a stretch big right, somebody that can play the four. So you can also have him match up with teams like the Oklahoma City Thunder who have Chet and Isaiah Hartenstein, or teams like the San Antonio spurs who might go get a big to pair up with Victor Wembanyama, who’s proven to be more of a 4 than a 5 in today’s NBA. So I think the pairings of the league and how the league is changing, and this is ironic because one of the major reasons for that change has been the productivity of Jared Allen and Evan Mobley on the court together. I just think it makes these conversations more nuanced, as Chris was saying earlier. And I’m wondering what you guys would be willing to give up. Obviously, Giannis is a big grab, but like, if Evan Mobley is the main ticket, who else is going with him? And what happens to Jared Allen in that situation?
Chris Fedor: Look, I mean, I think Giannis is a pipe dream and I don’t think the Cavs have an appetite for making that drastic of a move.
Jimmy Watkins: Remember, I said big swing.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. So I think we try to turn it a little bit more realistic. And I think, you know, the natural places that you start looking at in terms of whether it’s a combination of shedding salary or trying to improve this roster, you know, I think the places you look are Darius Jarrett, Max Struse and Isaac Okora. The more expendable players, the players that you deem a little bit more expendable, like I was kicking one around driving to Indianapolis with Joe Varden from the Athletic. And it fits under, I think, every single parameter. If I’m Kobe Altman, what I’m doing this offseason is I’m calling up the Orlando Magic and I’m gauging their interest in Darius Garland. They have long coveted a point guard. They don’t have anybody to organize their offense. They can’t shoot threes. They can’t score 100 points consistently. Darius would be the table setter for a team that desperately needs one of those. And I’m calling up the Magic and I’m asking how interested they are in Darius and what kind of appetite they have for moving Franz Wagner. The salaries match. Franz has shown a level of toughness. Franz isn’t going to back down. He’s not going to get pushed around. He fits in a series against Boston because of the style of play. He fits in a series against Indiana. I think we have to kind of worry about Indiana moving forward a little bit here. He fits in a series against the wing heavy New York Knicks. That would be the approach that, that I would take. And this is nothing against Darius in any sort of way. But, but I think just the way that this team is constructed, I keep asking myself a simple question, like, can you find somebody who can do enough of the positive things that Darius does from a shot creation standpoint, from a playmaking standpoint, from a table setting standpoint, can you find somebody who, not who’s Darius? This is a two time all star. This is a $40 million player, right? This is a very talented still with some potential to get better point guard, but somebody who can do enough of those things for you at a much cheaper cost. Because when you have a ball dominant player like Donovan Mitchell, when you have somebody who is going to be so responsible for so much of the offense, not all of it, but a lot of it, like can you find a better complementary piece that doesn’t make $40 million? So you kind of balance the roster a little bit and you balance the salary cap situation a little bit. And I start with Darius myself instead of Jared Allen because I just think there’s more value when it comes to Darius. I think more teams around the NBA are going to value a player like him and would be willing to give up a little bit more for somebody like that than they would for Jarrett. Like, if you’re talking about Max Strust type moves, if you’re talking about Isaac Okoro type moves, you’re talking about improving around the margins and maybe that’s the direction that the Cavs want to go in. Maybe that’s the direction they feel they need to go in. Just improve around the margins, get better 7, 8, 9 in this rotation, get better from a stylistic standpoint. But if we’re talking about like a combination of realistic moves and ones that could also potentially make the Cavs better and allow them to take a step forward, I think those conversations start with Darius.
Jimmy Watkins: I agree. While Jared Allen praised him a thousand times, he’s one of the best rim running, rim protecting centers in the league.
Chris Fedor: One of the best screen setters too.
Jimmy Watkins: One of the best screen setters in the league. It does feel like that skill set is one that teams think they can Moneyball. Now whether that’s whether that’s true, whether a bears out or not, we can have a different conversation about that. But like we’ve just had a conversation, the reason why teams Moneyball it, maybe they, maybe they know they’re getting, you know, 65% of what Jared Allen can do with a lot of these guys is because we just finished talking about, well, was this really a playoff series with J for Jared Allen with the Pacers. And it’s just like if I’m paying a guy $30 million, I just can’t be having that conversation about a guy, particularly at that position. That’s a tough spot. So I just don’t know what Jared Allen’s trade value is on the market. I would say. Phone’s ringing again. Rob Pelinka might give you a call. You think Luka Doncic needs a rim running center like he needs a cigarette on a Saturday night. He needs a rim running center very badly. He needs one. I don’t know what you think of the Lakers leftover assets. We were kicking this around at lunch today. Rui Hachimura, floating your boat. Franz Wagner, who is obviously a much better player than Ruhachamura. Jumper’s broken. The last thing the Cavs need is another wing that teams ignore in the playoffs. Another either or kind of decision for DeAndre. Like Franz Wagner is like. I’m not going to say something disrespectful. I was going to say Franz Wagner is like, if Dean Wade can dribble. But that’s not nice. That’s not nice. And that’s not true. That’s not true if he’s not a great shooter. That’s all I’m saying. I think what we’re arriving at here, not a ton of great options out there, not a ton of layups. Which is why the Cavs could arrive at the decision to stand the pat. I just think that in doing so they would put themselves in a very difficult logistical position. If you’re Kenny Atkinson, you gotta get this team through an 82 game season next year and you bring back mostly the same group. What are you telling these dudes every day? We had this conversation with a couple of guys today about how and they all mostly agree that this is how it should be. The cavs can go 85 and oh during the regular season next year they go 82. 0. Win the NBA cup, win a couple of blowouts, teams by so much that the NBA is like, wow, I’ve never seen this before. Extra wins and no one’s going to care. Where is your motivation? What is your. How do you have this conversation?
Chris Fedor: Jared Allen, Rui Hachimura, deal.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m just floating. I’m just floating options. I would not saying yes.
Chris Fedor: I’m just saying would you say yes to that?
Ethan Sands: Dalton connect as a sweetener and I might.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m not a Dalton connect guy. I mean, you want to talk about guys that defenses are. That offenses are going to go out in the playoffs. Oof, Oof. I get. He could put the ball in the basket, but there is a. There’s a diminishing returns on that. I’d try to finagle Austin Reeves in such a trade, particularly if I’m also thinking about moving Darius. It’s like supplemental creation. He’s not a table setter per se, but he is a creator. And there’s again, not going to be a perfect solution to filling in the gaps to these the guys that you’re leaving behind. Dorian Finney Smith and some stuff.
Chris Fedor: Oh, my gosh.
Jimmy Watkins: I don’t know.
Ethan Sands: We’re back on dfs. We’re back to talking about Dorian Finney Smith.
Jimmy Watkins: Chris, I like. I like Dorian Smith.
Ethan Sands: I liked him until I watched him play for the Lakers like he was not good.
Chris Fedor: I mean, you’re not giving up Jared Allen for Dorian Finney Smith, but you’re not giving up Jared Allen and a 2031 first.
Jimmy Watkins: 2031 first.
Chris Fedor: Oh, my gosh. I just don’t think you can devalue.
Jimmy Watkins: Jared Allen like that by 2031. In Nico Harrison’s world, Luka Doncic knee is a freaking nuclear reactor. Okay? Who knows? You’re gonna get. You’re gonna get the next Cooper flag with that pick potentially.
Chris Fedor: Look, if you want to call up New Orleans and you want to start talking like Trey Murphy. Okay, you got my attention, right? If you want to call up Utah and start discussing Darius Garland in a Lowry Markkanen type package with some other stuff coming back with Lowry, all right, you’ve got my attention, Rui. No, you don’t have my attention. Dorian Finney, Smith. No, you don’t.
Jimmy Watkins: What about Austin Reeves?
Chris Fedor: No.
Jimmy Watkins: Oh, he hates Austin Reeves.
Chris Fedor: No, you just give the defense a little bit less of a chance when you have somebody like Austin Reeves. You give the opposing offense somebody to attack over and over and over again. And I don’t know, I mean, it’s hard to label guys so early into their playoff experience, but I just don’t know that. That Austin reeves is a 16 game player. I think he’s more of an 82 game player. He whines about calls constantly. He doesn’t get back on defense. I don’t think he handles physicality well. I don’t think he’s tough. Like all these things that we’re trying in theory to fix for the Cavs because we think it’s going to make them better and give them a better chance to compete for a championship. It doesn’t speak to Austin Reaves. I’m sorry, it does not.
Ethan Sands: I’m not trying to be mean, but all of those characteristics, except for not being tough because Darius Garland I think is. Is tough, sounds a lot like DG to me, but of course.
Chris Fedor: And you’re trying to improve on that, right? Like, if we’re having this kind of conversation, you’re trying to improve on that.
Ethan Sands: Before I get into the last segment of today’s podcast, which is going to be completely different from what we delved into, I just wanted to go through the team payroll. After the 2024, 2025 season, Ty Jerome is up for free agency. Sam Merrill, free agency as well. Tristan Thompson, free agency. Javante Green, free agency. I’m just listing the names, Chris. I’m not saying all of these guys are our potentials to come back. I’m just. I’m trying to do my due diligence as a reporter and list all of the. The potential candidates. Okay, you gotta laugh at me for reading the dang names.
Jimmy Watkins: Shoot.
Ethan Sands: Anyway, my question is for you, Chris. Who do you think is the most viable for the Cavs to try and bring back of these free agents? Or do you let all of them walk?
Chris Fedor: Well, here’s the problem with letting all of them walk. You don’t have the salary cap space to replace them. And you know, for all of the shortcomings that Ty Jerome showed in the series against Indiana and for all of the questions that people probably have about Sam Merrill the player, you aren’t getting comparable enough players at the minimum. You’re just not. Not in today’s NBA. Not guys that you can rely on, not a guy who’s going to be third in six man of the year voting, not a guy that Kenny Atkinson is going to trust for 20 minutes a night. It’s just really, really hard to see that kind of outcome. So, like, part of this is why it benefits the Cavs so much to just bring their own guys back is because they control their rights and they’re able to do that. They’re able to pay Ty Jerome because they have his bird rights. They’re able to pay Sam Merrill and go into the luxury tax because those guys are the cavzone free agents. So, you know, if. If I thought there was a pathway to getting a good enough player, like, at way less of a cost. All right, totally understand where people are coming from with that. But like, if you’re going to let guys walk, you’re going to have to have an avenue to replace them and the Cavs just don’t. So, I mean, it’s complicated because once you get into the luxury tax and you get into the second apron and you start talking about the value of Ty Jerome, if you’re giving him a $10 million contract, an annual 10 million, maybe 12, maybe 14. 14 is going to be the full mid level exception. If you’re talking about that price range, you know, when you factor in the luxury tax, that’s going to cost the Cavs $80 million. That’s not a $14 million contract anymore. It’s not a $12 million contract. It’s an $80 million contract almost. It’s a very, very different conversation. Right. But I think they need somebody like Ty. I think he proved his value to this organization, and like I said, I just don’t think they have the pathway to replace him. So from everything I understand, he remains the priority this offseason. I think he should be the priority this offseason. But we all know Kenny Atkinson’s affinity for Sam Merrill. We all know how much Kenny Atkinson believes in Sam and trusts in Sam. We all know how much this front office believes and trusts in Sam. They’ve taken all this time to develop him and turn him into what he is right now, a rotation player. So I think there’s a real possibility that the moves that the Cavs make this offseason are bringing back their own guys. At least those two guys.
Jimmy Watkins: Devonte Green, you’re tied. Jerome’s, your Sam Merrill’s, I mean, that’s fine. I don’t quite. I don’t question Dan Gilbert’s willingness to spend in the big picture. We’ve seen it time and time again. I do wonder. Three straight, again, premature playoff exits.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: And he’s gonna. He’s gonna say, I’m sorry, the. The luxury tax check is how big for Ty Jerome.
Chris Fedor: Right? Right.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s how big. And I also wonder about Ty. I was thinking, like, during the season, okay, maybe 15, 16 a year for Ty. And that would put. That would put basically most of the league out of his sweepstakes, because you need cap space to get there. But what if during this playoff series, he dropped down into like that mid level exception range, 12 million or so. And that opens up his world. Worldview a little bit, I think. If the money is comparable, I would assume he’s staying here. I would assume it’s the team that gave him his break. This is a group of guys that he really likes. He’s got a great relationship with the fans here. He worked really well under Kenny and playing with these guys. I just think that there might be a few more dogs with the capability to be chomping here, whether they want to after watching that Pacer series. Different conversation.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I think the Cavs were always approaching this as if we had to go above the mid level. For somebody like Ty, that’s a benefit to us because the teams with cap space. Ty’s not an A list free agent. Okay. He’s probably not a B list free agent. I don’t think there are very many teams in the NBA.
Jimmy Watkins: I don’t know that there is an A list this year.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, you’re probably right about that, but I just don’t think there are too many teams around the NBA that are looking at Ty Jerome and saying starter quality, 82 game point guard. You know what I mean? Like, the Cavs felt like they had to manage his minutes for a reason. Like he played 19 minutes for a reason. Yes. Part of it was because he’s on a team with Darius Garland, Donovan, Mitchell, but there are other components to it as well. So I think the Cavs always felt good about the situation that they were in because they said, all right, who are the projected cap space teams? Detroit? Nope, not happening. Okay, great. So now we move on. The Washington Wizards tied Jerome. Going to take like a boost of $4 million annually to go be stuck in basketball purgatory and never play for anything meaningful. It doesn’t seem like he’s that kind of guy. It seems like winning matters to him. All right, so those are two options that don’t seem all that feasible. They’re the ones with projected cap space. Now we continue to move on. Utah, really, like, I can’t see that. They’re nowhere close to contention. Right. And they also have a young player on the roster and Isaiah Collier that they just drafted, that they pushed for. These all rookie teams that they probably want to give an opportunity to continue to develop. They also have Keon George, a guy that they want to have reps and playing time. And you know, they didn’t play Colin Sexton in second halves because they didn’t want him to get into the way of the on court reps and the meaningful playing time for some of their young guys. And obviously as you go further along in this rebuild, you start to have, you know, different aspirations and goals and stuff like that. But I just don’t think they’re going to go out and spend what they would have to spend to have that guy come in and almost stand in the way of some of their younger guys. And I don’t think that would be a situation that would be appealing for Ty anyway. So those are the cap space teams and then there’s Brooklyn. Brooklyn’s interesting. A little bit more interesting, probably a little bit more appealing than those other three teams. It’s home. He’s a New York kid. There is like a pathway to Brooklyn, like accelerating this thing. Could they get involved in the Kevin Durant, could they get involved in Giannis, could they get involved in maybe somebody who’s not on that same tier but, you know, makes them a little bit more competitive immediately. It’s a good coach, it’s a good system. Well respected in the Eastern Conference as opposed to the Western Conference. So more of a pathway to the playoffs, I would say. So that one, I think is the one that internally, as the season progressed and Ty was in the sixth man of the year conversation, I think that was the one that people in the Thai camp and in the Cavs organization were like, is that competition for us? But the other three, like, I just don’t see it. If it does get to a situation. Jimmy, like you said about the mid level exception, now all of a sudden the pool of teams expand. Now all of a sudden you’re talking about playoff caliber teams. Now you have to determine how much of an appetite did they have for giving their full mid level exception their only pathway in some cases to improving their roster. How much of an appetite did they have in giving all of that to Ty Jerome? It’s a different kind of question, but the options would be way more appealing than the cap space teams.
Ethan Sands: To me, I think Todd Jerome would get pissed off trying to play with Cam Thomas.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s just me, I think. I think you should not throw shade on the. On the name of a legendary, legendary tank gunner. Okay. Cam Thomas fits a role in this league.
Chris Fedor: That’s true.
Jimmy Watkins: He knows what he’s on this earth to do. That’s put ball near rim. Okay. Near rim. Brooklyn, I think. Yeah. From the Tide Jerome camp perspective, I don’t know if they’re looking at this competition. They’re looking at it as negotiating position.
Chris Fedor: Sure.
Jimmy Watkins: Looking around, hey, somebody like Utah, I promise I won’t sign it. And I like, trust me, I don’t want to be Colin Sexton bench in the second half to a. That was a nice way you put it there, Chris. To not get in the way of their young players development reps. I would say to not get in the way of losing a lot. Sad, sad week for Utah. Didn’t have a great lottery situation. Also Brooklyn, that Whatever path exists for Brooklyn to accelerate lottery. Look, lottery luck would have helped them out.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: As well. That didn’t happen. Okay, so let me ask you this. I have a legit question. Like Dan Gilbert spending for a championship team. We know he does that.
Chris Fedor: Yes.
Jimmy Watkins: We all have questions about whether this is a championship team. And spending on this team puts you in a little bit more of a bind than spending on some of the teams that Dan Gilbert spent in the past. Given the new restrictive second apron reality, are we concerned at all that Dan might take a look at this team and say, yeah, I’m not sure I want to foot the bill for this one?
Chris Fedor: I don’t think so. And I don’t think so because of this. You know, since LeBron left and the Cavs went through everything that they went through, I think Dan can look at this situation and say, this is our best shot. Like, we believe we have the coach. We believe we have the star. We probably need more experience. We probably need more maturity, but we have the talent. We have the skill. We have the depth. And I don’t think like anybody with. With a straight face will. Will look at the regular season and completely dismiss it. I don’t think Dan Gilbert will laugh at that. I think he understands that improvements need to be made and that this season was a failure and they have to take steps in a different direction, potentially, provided the right moves are out there for. For that to be the case. But. But I think. I think this. When you have these guys under contract, when you have this. This Runway for success, I think. I think this is the team that Dan will look at and say, I’m willing to do it. He wasn’t in the past. Right. There was no reason to in the past. But. But this is the kind of team that you do it for. Three All Stars, two all NBA players, for all of the flaws, for all of the things that we’ve already talked about with this team, this is the kind that you spend on typically.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m not saying, like, cut salary. I’m saying just reshuffle the deck. Sure. A little bit.
Chris Fedor: I get that. Especially because I think there’s another variable in place here. Right. Who knows what’s going to happen with Giannis and Milwaukee that could take one contender out of the mix? Who knows what’s going to happen when it comes to Boston? Jayson Tatum’s not going to play much, if at all, next year. Does Boston completely retool their roster, try and stay competitive, or does that take another impediment out of the way.
Jimmy Watkins: I’ll take one Derek White, please. If they’re selling them. Oh, one Derek White. One Derrick White.
Chris Fedor: Have tried that a couple of years ago, man, they really, really liked him. They were involved. That’s the other thing. The landscape of the Eastern Conference. You know, if you’re somebody like Dan and you’re having these conversations with Kobe and the strategy people in the front office, they lay all these things out there, right? And nobody can predict the future. Nobody knows what the landscape is going to look like. But there’s a very real possibility that how daunting it feels right now in the Eastern Conference because of Boston existing, that. That it’s not going to feel that same kind of way. And there’s a very real possibility that some of these executives say, this is our time. Strike now. Take advantage now, especially when it comes to the east and all the. All of the things that are very much up in the air.
Ethan Sands: And just to end with our very, very brief Celtics corner, the Boston Celtics.
Chris Fedor: Going on, even though the Cavs aren’t going to play them in the conference finals.
Ethan Sands: Hey, when our boss higher reps ask for something, I give it to him. Chris. I will deliver. I like this job. I’m trying to keep it.
Chris Fedor: Celtics corner for 2027.
Jimmy Watkins: Sixth corner. Derrick White, anyone? Drew Holiday. Who you selling? Who are you selling over there?
Chris Fedor: Jalen Brown? Jayla Brown, Anybody?
Jimmy Watkins: Brooklyn could make like a five seed just out of teams who might be reshuffling their parts this year.
Chris Fedor: There are other teams, though, that I think are way better positioned as, you know, like Oklahoma. If Oklahoma City had the appetite for the big swing, it’s done. Nobody can top what they can offer, right? If San Antonio had the appetite for a big swing, to put somebody next to Wemby and really speed that thing up like, it’s almost done. Like, they can beat a Houston offer. They can beat a Brooklyn offer. They can certainly crush a Miami offer. Who else? Lakers. Forget it. Who else is even in the conversation?
Jimmy Watkins: Dallas.
Chris Fedor: Dallas.
Ethan Sands: Back to Celtics corner for two seconds. Boston stayed alive. Even without star Jayson Tatum, they were able to extend the series. They are still trailing the New York Knicks 3 to 2. But they won game five. 127, 102. With Derrick White obviously fan favorite for Jimmy Watkins on the podcast, who had 34 with seven triples.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m the aliens in the claw machine in Toy Story, and the claw is Derek White. Derek White. Derek White.
Ethan Sands: The only thing I’m gonna say is I think Boston’s adjustments without Jason Tatum proves that they’re not just one player and that’s how they’re built. And I think that was supposed to be what the Cavs were striving for. And even when without some key pieces, they weren’t able to put together what they thought could have been or should have been a victory, especially in Game two. And seeing as though Derrick White, who is arguably their third option, was the guy to come through for them, I think it’s telling to the different standard of mentality and mindset that the Boston Celtics might have the mental toughness, as we’ve discussed throughout this podcast, for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that’s the main difference. And we talked about it. If there’s a team that we thought could come back from a three one series deficit among all the teams that were down, we thought it would be the Boston Celtics. Obviously, that changed when Jayson Tatum went down, but I think tonight was another example of the Boston Celtics trying to prove that it doesn’t really matter if they have jt, Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, whoever, whoever’s on the court is going to give everything they got to try and extend the series. And the saying from Joe Missoula afterwards, who is known for his short press conferences, at least in Cleveland, he said the goal coming in was to win one game. The goal for the next game is to win one game. And taking it one game at a time is basically exactly what each team that’s in these kind of deficits would have wanted to do. And I think that’s the mentality and the mindset that you need, especially when in enemy territory for the next game.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I think the other thing that stands out to me about Boston is that their most important players don’t have to play catch up to the lead guy. And I think the Cavs are in a situation where Darius Garland, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley are still trying to play catch up and get to the level that Donovan Mitchell is ready for, clearly ready for. And you know, Jimmy, you were talking at the beginning of the podcast about dawg. D A W G. Like Drew Holliday is a dawg, right? Derrick White is a dawg. Dawg dog. Jaylen Brown is a dog. D A W G, dawg. And it’s one of the things that as we were spinning it forward and the regular season was unfolding, it was one of my primary concerns about the Cavs in a potential matchup against Boston. And I think you saw differences in approach, differences in focus, differences in fragility, differences in all those things when it came to how Boston approached it at home. And I know Boston didn’t play Indiana. Boston played New York. The Cavs had to play Indiana and deal with all the different things that were problematic for them. But the approach, the mentality, all of those different things, the focus level, all of those things just felt different for Boston in a win or go home type situation than they did for the Cavs the other night.
Jimmy Watkins: My takeaway from the from Celtics corner tonight is and for the last several nights, what a missed opportunity for the Cavs. Even if you’ve run this back, you just don’t know the Jayson Tatum Achilles lesson is you just don’t know what your window is. And that’s not saying the Celtics can’t get back. That’s not, you know, Jayson Tatum is in the prime of his life. He’ll still be at a young enough age, I think, where this is not going to like debilitate the rest of his career and he’ll never be the same player or anything like that. I’m obviously hopeful that’s not the case and I don’t think it’s going to be the case. But the Celtics had a pretty good thing going. Even if they were going to have to rearrange some deck chairs this summer. Like they were always going to be a really good team. And all of a sudden we don’t know what the next two years look like, frankly. So like one seed. How many, how many more times in the next five years think the Cavs will be the 1 seed? I don’t know. I generally don’t know the answer. How many more times will the Cavs stiffest competition, whoever they may be? Let’s. And that’s assuming that the Cavs are again, top of the line, that tier of contender. And we know there’s going to be a lot of movement this summer. We’re assuming that how many more times is that team going to be one down, three one in a series? Two lose their best player? I don’t know the answer to that one. This is it really felt like if you took care of business, the stars were kind of aligning here. The Cavs caught some bad breaks themselves, but if they could have fought through them, they were catching a lot of good breaks elsewhere.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. Even if they got to the NBA Finals, I think there were potential for good breaks too. Right. I mean Minnesota is a six seed. Denver’s battle tested championship DNA, but flawed. And I think there’s a legitimate question about is Oklahoma City ready for this? So like, yeah, I agree. You know, even the level of competition that could have been waiting for them in the NBA Finals if they got to that point, think about, like, just how much more confidence they would have built by potentially beating Boston getting to the NBA Finals, like, all of the things that they had dealt with throughout that playoff journey and how much better they probably would have been because of all those things. Like, even what was waiting for them in the NBA Finals didn’t feel, feel as daunting as maybe it could have.
Ethan Sands: And I think even if they would have gotten past the New York Knicks, which I think they were better built to do this season than in years past, but even with Mitchell Robinson back in their lineup, if they get past that, they shred the physicality, the toughness layer, the conversations that have been around them, all those things, I think with whoever they would have faced in the Eastern Conference Finals, said the Cavs would have gotten there and potentially gotten past them. I think that would have boosted their confidence, as you mentioned, Chris, to an extremely new level because of the narratives surrounding both of those teams over the previous years that they had ended their season. But I’m going to end the podcast with this. And it’s a line from Joe Mazzulla to kind of bring this full circle during his post game press conference in response to with their backs against the wall, what their mindset was or what their thought process was. And he said it’s just who they are as people. You just rely on the character of the guys. That brings us full circle to what we said about the Cavs and how it’s got to be in you. It’s not going to be something that you can experience or learn or taught if you don’t got it. If you don’t have that dog mentality, it’s really, really hard to have that instilled into you. It’s just who you are as a person, your character, your draw and, and what you think about where you want to be and how willing you are to do it. Donovan Mitchell said he’d die on the floor to get to where he wants to go. How many other players on the cast can say that?
Jimmy Watkins: Thought you were going to quote Missoula saying, damn, it.
Ethan Sands: Wasn’T in the cards, buddy. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the One and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a cast insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. I know you guys have been waiting for another hey Chris episode. Sorry the season came to an abrupt end, we had to make some maneuvers, right? So we’re gonna do the hey Chris podcast tomorrow to come out on Friday to get your weekend started, right? To send in your questions and get your voice heard, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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