CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, hosts Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the upcoming NBA conference finals and highlight the implications of how these series could alter the landscape of the NBA — including what it could mean for the Cavs as they prepare for next season.
Takeaways:
The Knicks have shown a top five offense during the regular season.
Indiana Pacers have improved defensively since January.
The Pacers can execute late in games without being rattled.
Oklahoma City Thunder’s defense is a key factor in their success.
Minnesota Timberwolves may struggle with consistent secondary offense.
The NBA is experiencing an era of parody with different champions each year.
Cavs have an opportunity to capitalize on the changing landscape of the NBA.
The importance of mental toughness in playoff series.
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Ethan Sands: Foreign what up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, and it’s your dynamic duo. Chris Fedor joins me, as always. And Chris, as you know, it was a dynamic Sunday with two game sevens going on. One in the NBA, which we know you didn’t really care about, and then the NHL had a Game seven between the Florida Panthers and the Maple Leafs. Chris, I think people need to understand why you’re a Maple Leafs fan and then why you feel like this might have been one of their worst losses, if not the worst loss in franchise history, in a Game seven at home. Talk me through it.
Chris Fedor: I mean, there is no hockey team here in Cleveland, so I love hockey, I love playoff hockey, and I had to find a different team. And a couple of years ago, I was fortunate enough to go to a Toronto Maple Leafs game in person. When I was up there for a Cavs Raptors game, it just kind of coincided with the visit. And then I’ve been to multiple Maple Leafs games inside Scotiabank Arena. It’s just the environment, the history, the tradition. I went and bought some gear when I was there, and, you know, when you. You don’t have a team in town, you kind of, like, try to adopt one. And I had followed Mitch Marner throughout his young career. I’d obviously known about Auston Matthews and I had followed him. So they had a couple of players that I really, really liked. They’ve got an awesome logo. The environment is unbelievable. And the first time that I went to Scotiabank arena for a Toronto Maple Leafs home game, I said to myself, then I was like, this is something that I’m going to be a part of. Like, this. This is my team. Everything about this is awesome. Like, so much so that because I was there in the arena, I couldn’t get a ticket. I wasn’t there as a fan. I got in as a media member. And I just tried to take somebody’s seat every time they got up so that I could be a part of it. But because of that environment, because of my experience being at multiple Maple Leafs games, I just became a huge Maple Leafs fan. And that has become really, really painful. Like, more painful than I anticipated. It was a lot more fun. When I went to those games during the regular season as opposed to, you know, what I saw tonight against the Florida Panthers, I planned my entire Sunday around it. I made sure that I talked to Holly about her putting Elliot down for night night instead of me so that I could Be there in front of the tv. And in fact, as Elliot was getting ready for bed, at one point, I got so excited over a breakaway that the Leafs had, and it was a terrible shot. Like, the guy just. It looked like he was rattled and he just wanted to get something on net. It had no chance, but at the time, it looked like a breakaway. And I jumped off the couch and I made some kind of noise. And then Elliot stomps around, like, I’m hearing this stomping from his bedroom straight above me, and I’m like, oh, man, I made a mess. Oh, what’s he going to say to me now? And he just comes out of his room, opens the door, and he says, daddy, you be quiet, please. What was that? That was probably like the best moment that I had in the game, because after that point, it was basically all Florida. And at this point, as a Leafs fan, I would just rather them avoid game sevens altogether because they cannot win game sevens. And it just, you know, the hope that they put in you by forcing a game seven, and then you’re like, trying to convince yourself, hey, they’re at home. Hey, they were playing really, really well early on in the series, and now it’s seven straight game sevens that they have lost in franchise history. So just chalk this one up. Wonderful night.
Ethan Sands: I feel like Cavs fans can relate slightly to that unfortunate feeling, knowing, like, hey, it’s Cleveland. I remember, I forget who I was talking to. I think it was Nate Ulrich from the Akron Beacon Journal. And the Cavs were without three of their top seven players in game two. And. And Nate goes, well, you know, it would be so Cleveland if they ended up winning this game before anything happens. And then in the last minute of the game, after being up by 20 points, the Cavs led off a collapse of sorts for the Indiana Pacers to come back. That’s one of the teams that we’re going to talk about now that has made it to the conference finals. Also today, the Denver Nuggets and the OKC Thunder competed in a Game seven of their own. And that game wasn’t close either, Chris. So I think you can feel some solace in. In that. But I wanted to ask you a question about the NBA Finals, but we have to get there first, right? The conference finals are a great matchup this year. WWE previewed the New York Knicks versus the Indiana Pacers, having a little showdown between Jalen Brunson and. And Tyrese Halliburton, dating back to last year, kind of writing the script for that one. And Then Minnesota and Anthony Edwards vs. Shay Gilders Alexander and the Oklahoma City Thunder. I think it’s going to be two great matchups. But for me, Chris, I think the end off story would be phenomenal if it was the best defense versus arguably one of the best offenses in playoff history. Because we know how prolific the defense is for the Oklahoma City Thunder, how they were able to hold off Jokic in the Denver Nuggets today. And then, you know, Indiana shredded the Cavs defense and they have been shredding teams dating back to last playoffs when they had one of the best playoff offenses in NBA history. Chris, what do you think about these matchups and who do you think is making it out of each conference?
Chris Fedor: Well, I think it also becomes a little bit interesting, Ethan, because the Knicks had a top five offense during the regular season, so they have shown a ceiling. They have shown a different kind of style. Like this isn’t the Knicks from two years ago where they just want to muck it up and they want to grind it out and win games in the 80s or the 90s. They can score too. I think it’s fascinating because I don’t think the Knicks have gotten enough respect for the offensive leap that they have taken. Just like I don’t believe that Indiana has gotten enough respect for the defensive leap that they’ve taken. You know, everybody thinks about Indiana as this run and gun team and they want to play fast and it’s all about offense and then they’re going to turn around and give up like 115 to 120 points. That’s not who they are. That’s not who they’ve been since January. Like, yes, they want to play fast. Yes, they want to shoot threes. Yes, yes, they are known primarily for their offense because it’s that good. But we saw in the series against the Cavs that they can lock it down. Andrew Nemhardt is a pest. Aaron Neesmith can guard his butt off on the perimeter. Miles Turner is a really good defensive anchor and paint protector. You know, Siakam has enough length, athleticism, strength and physicality to bother guys. TJ McConnell coming off the bench just to be a pest, picking up guys full court. I just think it’s going to be fascinating to see how do the Knicks handle, like everything that the Cavs couldn’t handle that on ball pressure. The relentlessness of the Indiana Pacers picking up the CAVS by average 53ft away from the basket. And like what does that do to the rhythm and the flow of the Knicks offense and how comfortable are they having to operate maybe against a shorter shot clock than what they’ve grown accustomed to, maybe in the half court more than what they’ve grown accustomed to. So I think it’s going to be a fascinating series in the East. I think it’s got seven games written all over it. Honestly, I do. I have so much respect for the Pacers. You know this Ethan. I’ve been talking about the Pacers basically since January. You know, when we were having all these conversations about, okay, if not Boston in the Eastern Conference, who, who can challenge the Cavs, who’s the team that we should worry the most about? And I brought up IND again over and over and over again. So I’m not going to lose respect for them now. If anything, I’m just going to continue to gain more and more respect. I think it’s fascinating because Halliburton, Brunson. I think it’s fascinating because both those teams, you know, theoretically at various points can play five out style. Cat is the kind of big man who’s comfortable on the perimeter. He’s certainly more comfortable on the perimeter than Jared Allen is. So how are the Pacers going to handle that with a big like him? What are they going to do to try and get him in foul trouble because he’s foul prone? I think it’s going to be a fascinating chess match if you start breaking down the matchups. Look, coaching goes the way of the Pacers, but then you start looking at the high level talent. And this is why the Knicks made the deals that they did over the last couple of years and they gave up all the draft capital that they did for this time of year for this kind of series for og, for, for Mikel Bridges, for Karl Anthony Towns. All of those guys has been great throughout this playoff run for the Knicks. So I’m really, really excited about this series and like I said, I think it’s got seven games written all over it.
Ethan Sands: I mentioned just how fun it would look to have the best defense versus the best offense in the NBA Finals. But like the storybook of you get to test out who had the better end of a trade between the Minnesota Timberwolves and the New York Knicks. Carl Anthony Towns, of course, going to New York and Julius Randle and Dante DiVincenzo breaking up the Villanova boys like before it gets. Yeah, before it even gets started. Like, I think the storylines you really can’t miss with how the playoffs are going to end up in the NBA Finals and not to mention a team will win A championship for the first time since 1979, which is the Oklahoma City Thunder, or since 1973, or ever. Ever.
Chris Fedor: I think the other big thing, Ethan, is that seven straight years of a different NBA champion. This is an era of parody that we’re living in in the NBA. So when we spin it back to the Cavs, as we often do on this podcast, this is their opportunity to take advantage. Right? And I know that I’ve got a ton of respect for Boston, but Boston’s just going to be a different team coming up this season. No Jayson Tatum, if not for the season, a majority of the season. You don’t want to completely dismiss them before seeing what else they do with their roster. But there is no Golden State warriors from when LeBron James and Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love were trying to win the championship here for the Cavs. So, like, if there’s an opportunity for these Cavs for Donovan Mitchell to maybe possibly finally make it out of the second round, you would feel like this is the era for it to happen because of the parity, because of how much the league constantly changes with player movement and player empowerment and stuff like that. You know, seven different teams to win a championship in seven years, that’s something. That’s something in the NBA. And every team should feel like emboldened to try and go for it to a different level as we head into this particular offseason.
Ethan Sands: And Chris, just to take that stat just a step forward further, in the previous 70 years, the same seven franchises won 77% of the championship. That’s a lot of sevens. It’s a tongue twister. I’m glad I got that out. But I just think you talk about all of these different things that go into this series. In the Western Conference, we obviously saw a series where we talked about it coming in like Denver had the experience. Denver had arguably the best player in the world also going up against the other potential MVP candidate. So I think it’s interesting that it was one of the most lopsided seven game series in NBA history. Most lopsided seven game series here in the top three. 2008 Boston versus Atlanta, plus 84 in that series. The 1948 series. Basketball association of America, that’s how long ago this was, was between the Philadelphia warriors and the St. Louis Bombers. Plus 77. Man, history is great. Nerding out a little bit here. 2025 OKC versus Denver, plus 64. Obviously that’s a testament to the defense of the OKC Thunder and how they’ve been able to hold off other teams. But I just think there are teams that are built to counteract that. And even though OKC plays extremely fast, we’ve seen it time and time again. Nobody plays as fast as the Indiana Pacers. We talked a little about the Eastern Conference series, the Western Conference series, Minnesota versus SGA and okc. What do you think about that series?
Chris Fedor: I think the series that OKC just went through against Denver, I think that was the hurdle that they needed to jump over. And I think that is going to help them significantly in this matchup against Minnesota and throughout the remainder of their time as they keep their core together. There are always these tests that these upstart teams need to deal with at some point during their playoff run. Like there’s always a dragon that they need to slay and for them to do that. Game 7 at home against Jokic, against Jamal Murray, against the champion Denver Nuggets, that was a big deal for the Thunder and I think they’re going to be better because of it. And I go into this series and I just wonder one thing. If Ant is going to be bothered. I’m not going to say that OKC is going to stop him. But look, man, like Lou Dort is a menace. Everybody knows that. Alex Caruso, the way that he defended throughout the course of the Nuggets series, including against Jokic for a lot of game seven earlier today, Jalen Williams, another one, they just have multiple guys that they can throw at Ant throughout the course of a 48 minute game. Shay could be on him too. And I just think that is going to wear down the Timberwolves and I think that is one of the key formula pieces that you need when dealing against Minnesota. Like who do you have against and how many of those guys do you have against Ant? And to have three, four, maybe five different guys that can at least bother him throughout the course of the game and show him different looks. I don’t know where else Minnesota is going to go for consistent secondary offense. Is it going to be Jaden McDaniels? I mean he has really elevated his offensive game throughout the course of this year. You know Dante DiVincenzo, he hasn’t shot the ball as well throughout the course of this playoff run as I think Minnesota would like. It’s certainly not Rudy. Like he can be a beneficial scoring threat at various points but. But not somebody who can take that scoring load from. Ant is probably Julius Randle, right? Like that’s who you’re looking at. That’s part of the reason why they made the trade that they did. The other part of it obviously was the salary cap situation and the tax and all that kind of stuff. But you know, Julius has been in playoff games before. Julius has been successful at various points in the playoffs before. He had a very good series for them against the Lakers. So if Ant is going to be bothered by Oklahoma City and I think he’s going to, I just don’t know that that Minnesota is going to have enough consistent offense throughout the course of a seven game series. And I think OKC is the better team. I think they should be favored. I think the fact that they got through seven games against Denver is a big deal for their confidence and their belief in themselves and everything that they favor. Think they can be. So I think Oklahoma City wins this one. I would not be surprised if it’s like five or six. Honestly, I just don’t know that Minnesota is going to have enough consistent offense. They had a hard time at various points scoring against the Lakers in that series and that was with Ant, you know, having big time games, at least a couple of them against the Lakers. So you know some of the questions that we’ve had about OKC throughout the course of this playoff run, one of them being who is the reliable, consistent second scoring option. I think Minnesota runs into that same question going into this series against okc, especially given the defense that Minnesota is now going to face. Like, it’s one thing to like have enough of that against the Lakers or previous playoff series, but against this opponent, against this defense, with all their switchability and their versatility, I just think Minnesota is going to have their hands full on the offensive end. And I’m not sure that they’re going to come up with enough solutions over the course of a seven game series.
Ethan Sands: I think the other difficult part of this for Minnesota is they’ve gone against two straight teams without a true center. Right? Draymond Green is one of the best defenders of all time. We can have this conversation all day, but he is not a true center. Right? And that’s the death lineup that they run. At various times the Lakers took Jackson Hayes off the floor like they did not have a center. And now you’re going to go up against a team that has two legitimate centers. Chet Holmgren, Isaiah Hartenstein. Obviously Chet Holmgren is more of a stretch four than a center, but he’s tall enough to be a pest on the defensive end, especially as a rim protector. So I think it’s going to be an interesting series. I definitely think OKC also Comes out of that series as well. Talks about the lopsidedness of their series against the Denver Nuggets, but yeah, Chris, I just think both of these series could pose to be interesting. I think Indiana and New York is going to be more interesting, obviously, because we know if the Knicks can somehow manage to get it close, to keep it close in the fourth quarter. Fourth quarter, clutch player of the year Jalen Brunson is going to have his moments. And I think it’s important to note that if we’re going to turn this back to the Cavs, that was a liability for them. They didn’t have a fourth quarter performer. Obviously. Darius Garland throughout the regular season was one of the best clutch players, but he wasn’t at the same caliber in that series. Also, dealing with that toe injury, that does not help with that at all. Donovan Mitchell gassed usually in those fourth quarters from carrying the team through those first three quarters and having to get them there. So I just think these two teams, these two matchups are going to be great. It’s going to be really interesting. Whoever matches up in the NBA Finals.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, but that whole fourth quarter thing and that whole late game situation thing, Ethan, that is not a vulnerability of the Pacers the way that it was with the Celtics, the way that it showed itself to be, you know, for the Cavs in those situations with Indiana on the other side. I think Indiana, they are tough. They are mentally tough. There’s nothing fragile about them. Tyrese Halliburton is clutch. Myles Turner hits big shots, Andrew Nemhard hits big shots. So they’re just not going to be phased the same. Like Boston was a team that, you know, in late game situations, even in the past, you wondered about them because Jayson Tatum takes bad shots at various points. Jaylen Brown takes bad shots. They go into this isolation stuff where ball stops moving. It’s dribble, dribble, dribble. There is no player movement. Obviously New York was able to take advantage of that. And going into the series, that was kind of like a swing point. The question was, you know, could New York keep it close enough to put pressure on the Celtics? In late game situations where it comes down to half court execution, where it comes down to late game execution, that’s not a problem. Problem for Indy, they can execute late, they can run their offense against whoever it may be, and they might even be more equipped to deal with Brunson on the defensive end of the floor because Andrew Nemhard is a great defender who at times bothered Donovan Mitchell because Aaron Neesmith is a great defender who at times disrupted everything that the Caps wanted to do on the offensive end because of his physicality, because of his ability to navigate screens, because of his ability to. To fight over the top of screens, because of his ability to not force Indiana into switches and stuff like that. So I just don’t think, you know, obviously New York has the edge when it comes to late game situations because they’ve got Captain Clutch and they’ve got the clutch player of the year. But it’s not as decisive as it was in the previous series against Boston because when it got close in late game situations, you know, Indy, Indy showed a lot against the Cavs. That’s the Cavs, not the Knicks. But they also did it against Milwaukee. They also did it in the regular season against Milwaukee at various points. So having somebody like Tyrese Halliburton who does not make mistakes, who does not get rattled, who doesn’t turn the ball over, and other guys that have been in those situations throughout the course of their career and they’ve come through in those situations, I just don’t think it’s the same vulnerability. I don’t think it’s the same level of advantage for the Knicks going into this particular series.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, and I think that’s a good point because both of these teams have the ability, have the star power, have the mental toughness to be able to hold on for the fourth quarter. I just think for Indiana, because that’s what the Cavs found out. They do it for 48 minutes, they’re running you and they have the depth. How is that going to affect the Knicks, especially with Tom Thibodeau’s lineup, how many players he plays, how many minutes they’ve already accrued throughout the two playoff series before this alone. I just think it’s going to be a test of mettle. And obviously it’s two very different styles with Tom Thibodeau running basically eight players, while Rick Carlisle can get up to 12 players even then some depending on the series. So I think it’ll be extremely interesting in the east and we already talked about the Western Conference.
Chris Fedor: There is going to be no narrative about mental toughness coming out of this Eastern Conference finals series, that’s for sure, because both of these teams are mentally tough as hell. Yep.
Ethan Sands: No excuses. And hopefully we’re going to hope for no injuries as well. So it’s a clean series to see two of the best in the east, two of the best in the west, and find out which two teams are going to meet up in the NBA Finals, but we’re sticking with five episodes, so stick with us throughout the week. Don’t get tired of us just yet. Continuing to give you content throughout the summer off season and all of those things. With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Of course it is the off season. We’re going to get to talk to Kobe Altman tomorrow, but if you guys have questions that you think that we should ask him during this press conference, the end of the season, the last person we’re going to get to talk to, this is where you send in those questions. And of course, for the hey Chris episodes that are to come throughout the entire summer. To get all this information, to get all these things and get Give your voice and get your voice heard, Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice from Heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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