CLEVELAND, Ohio — It’s a Monday edition of this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. This week, they run through some listener emails in the wake of the Cavs’ playoff elimination by the Pacers last week.
They also get into the Guardians and moves that might be happening sooner than later. And they discuss a listener email about the Browns‘ “tanking” from a decade ago, and whether it tells us anything about the current team.
Have any questions or comments for the podcast? Send your thoughts and questions in via email to us at sports@cleveland.com and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line, and we’ll try to feature it on an upcoming episode.
Also, we are looking for stories or memorable moments you’ve had with Guardians play-by-play voice Tom Hamilton as he prepares for his induction into the Baseball Hall of Fame this July.
Highlights:
The Cavs faced significant challenges in the playoffs due to injuries and coaching decisions, but listeners have some critiques of Kenny Atkinson’s coaching during the playoff series against Indiana.
The reliance on Darius Garland for ball handling exposed weaknesses in the Cavs’ offense.
The Cavs need to develop more mental toughness to handle playoff pressure. How can they do that?
Injuries to key players like Garland and Mobley impacted the Cavs’ performance.
Should the playoffs be officiated differently than the regular season?
The Pacers’ style of play highlighted the Cavs’ weaknesses in handling pressure.
A listener asks: Can the 0-16 rebuild era tell us anything about these Browns a decade later?
The Guardians are struggling. Here are some moves to expect soon, maybe as soon as the next couple of days.
Send in your Tom Hamilton stories as he prepares to enter the Baseball Hall of Fame in late July. You can email those to sports@cleveland.com and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
Here’s the podcast for this week:
If the player above doesn’t work, you can listen to this week’s podcast here.
If you have a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below.
The transcript below was generated by a computer, and as such it contains many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell (01:00.098)
Hey, it’s a Monday edition of the Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m David Campbell, your host. Terry Pluto is here. Busy day, Terry. You were down at the Cavs kind of a post-season wrap-up thing with Kobe Altman. And I guess we can start with that. We also got some good Brown stuff. And I know there’s a lot of Guardians to dive into after their rough weekend down in Cincinnati, but you’re just back from independence and the Cavs wrap-up press conference. What did you hear down there? What was your take on it?
Terry Pluto (01:14.842)
Sure.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (01:28.086)
We’ve got a bunch of emails too from listeners about the calves that we can talk about as well.
Terry Pluto (01:32.548)
Why don’t you pick an email right away for the calves? Let’s do that. Why don’t we do some of those and then we’ll see what they’re interested in before I talk about what I’m interested in.
David Campbell (01:34.636)
OK, yeah, I’ll run through a few of these.
David Campbell (01:41.12)
Okay, let’s see. So I’m gonna run through a few of these and then we’ll just double back. So the first one is from Chuck Loughlin from Menner. Chuck’s a long time listener. says, hey Dave and Terry, as always love your show. Terry’s talking. Here are my scribbles regarding why the Cavs lost to the Pacers. Would you agree? Regular season and heat series led to overconfidence. Garland’s injury took away his strength, quickness and change of direction, cutting down his ability to score and defend.
Terry Pluto (01:55.504)
All right.
David Campbell (02:08.254)
Atkinson was out coached. Carlisle made better and quicker adjustments, kept his players fresh. Atkinson didn’t have his players ready for the fast pace and intensity of the Pacers. Atkinson went away from the offense that worked so well most of the season, most of the season ball movement and getting everyone involved, resulting in open looks for three point shots. Went back to isolation primarily by Mitchell, but also by Garland and Jerome, both of whom were ineffective. Mitchell was relatively effective in his ISO play, but that won’t win a series.
Terry Pluto (02:36.784)
Okay, let’s stop there. A bunch of these really are garland-centric.
David Campbell (02:38.509)
Okay.
Terry Pluto (02:46.39)
offense falling apart and trouble with the pressure from Indiana had to do with shows how they were reliant on Garland to bring the ball out during the regular season and how Indiana actually exposed the weakness and tied to Rome’s game, which I saw once in a while about how he would, when he was pressured, he would just back the ball at the floor slowly. And when you’re backing it up, you actually are.
Only maybe seeing half of the court at the most, you know, the right or left side. And so they were, that was a, that was a problem for them. where I do fault Kenny is that, he could have helped, Gar, excuse me, could have helped Donovan with the ball handling even. And this is something that Kobe Altman mentioned when I talked about this, talked to him at the press conference that, know, even if it would have been having Evan Mobley come back to help bring it up, just to take some.
load off him because Garland was awful. I mean, whether it’s the toe was certainly part of it. but he just, and then he lost his game. Like he would break the press and then he went one on one. He just, he wasn’t moving the ball. He was just, we talked about that last week. It was really discouraging to watch him play, but I think a lot of the things there where the offense fell down or whatever, it showed how much they relied on Garland and how that kind of toppled it.
David Campbell (04:14.584)
Alright, got a few more. Chuck’s got several bullet points here. last few are Jerome was exposed, his lack of quickness, Hunter and Mobley’s effectiveness was diminished by their injuries, but hard to know how much they appeared to be closer to form than Garland. Mitchell also was hampered by injuries, thus essentially taking away his outside shot. So thanks for that, Chuck. Yeah, alright, here’s one from.
Terry Pluto (04:16.836)
Yeah.
Yes.
Terry Pluto (04:34.69)
Yeah, I’d agree with most of us. Yeah. I mean, there’s nothing in there, so it’s nothing outrageous. Okay.
David Campbell (04:40.45)
Yeah, there’s a lot there. So here’s one from Vince Granary and Vince lives in Cincinnati. He’s a long time listener. He says, Hey, Dave and Terry, I found it useful when tempted to blow off a little steam to take a deep breath and sleep on it. Well, with the calves, that didn’t work. I know you were probably as frustrated as I am. Although the future is bright, a few concerns emerge. Number one, Kenny Atkinson was clearly out coached. One of the most glaring weaknesses occurred on out of bounds plays after timeouts, which is something we talked about, right, Terry?
Terry Pluto (04:54.48)
You
Terry Pluto (05:09.134)
Yeah, I mean actually actually they trashed two of them. Unfortunately, the two they trashed were the last minute of the game of game two. I mean, it has I heard from somebody with the calves on because I took him to task on that and I’m sure it’s right because I never noticed that earlier in the season at all. I guess during the regular season, they like a 98 percent success rate getting the ball in bounds. But it all depends. It’s like, you know, he only threw
David Campbell (05:09.774)
Indiana, you, yeah.
David Campbell (05:19.276)
which passed them,
Terry Pluto (05:39.312)
two home runs, you all season, but he threw them in the ninth inning, you know, it’s kind of like, well, here would be the example. Last year in the playoffs, during the regular season, Clausay had allowed only two home runs the whole regular season. He allowed three in the playoffs, you know, so it really jumped out. But I did fault Kenny, at least on one of those out of bounds plays, which was the long pass that they threw from.
Strews tried throughout the Dean way that was never gonna work and they really could have done some stuff there but but anyway, so they were 98 % successful during the record season
David Campbell (06:19.502)
The class a Coral areas it’s known All right So anyway Vince goes on he says Indiana usually got a good look Cleveland did not sometimes they couldn’t even get the ball in bounds This is one area where guys like Doc Rivers and Ty Lue were exceptional and Rick Carlisle put on a clinic in this series Second was his usual reliance on Isaac Acora was a six-man Acora cost us many points uncharacteristic bad defense including
Terry Pluto (06:23.024)
You’re a girl, yeah, right.
David Campbell (06:46.05)
that stupid foul at the end of the first half and gave us near nothing offensively. Not that anyone not named Mitchell did. And third, leaving Garland in when he was obviously hurt and not even trying tied Jerome until the 19 point lead became a big hole late in the third quarter. What did he have to lose? Jerome provided a needed spark, arguably too late to regain control of the game. Then Mitchell had his Tony Fernandez moment, missing all three free throws. I say this because we all remember Tony’s blunder, but few remember that his heroics earlier got us
Terry Pluto (06:49.391)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (07:09.754)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that’s awesome.
David Campbell (07:15.746)
where we were in 1997.
Terry Pluto (07:17.39)
And he was a borderline Golden Glove infielder too on that.
David Campbell (07:21.976)
Dare I mention the fumble where poor Ernest Beiner had an awesome game until fate intervened in Denver. All right. Well, Vince wraps up. says, I’ll leave it you two to figure out where the Cavs go from here, given their cap issues that will likely change the supporting Cavs. Keep up the great work. Thanks for that, Vince.
Terry Pluto (07:25.26)
No, no, no, leave, leave, leave Ernasana. No, no, we’re not doing Erna’s Spider. We’re just stopping it right there.
Terry Pluto (07:38.768)
Now that now one of the things that messed up the O’cora never would have been the six man, but but you guys are hurt I mean this you know the the key subs Were when you would bring when they would go to the bench, you know, usually you know Jerome it would come in and They would bring in Hunter, you know, those are your first those are your first two then after that and then they had Wade and a coral were usually the next two
David Campbell (08:02.082)
Hunter,
Terry Pluto (08:09.162)
and so that was all messed up because of that. I thought they should have pulled a Garland earlier in that game where he was acting like his foot got shot off and was limping around, and just showed how Kenny had lost, confidence in Jerome. It also, I think showed too, how Jerome was able to, disguise that negative part of his game. Cause I think a lot of times he wasn’t bringing the ball all the way up the court.
Let’s face it, Indiana had a team that is Kenny said, it was an interesting comment. wrote it down at after the game five because they recruited to their identity. In other words, they have all those guys like knee Smith and Neymar and obviously have Halliburton, but they were just very, very active, you know, athletic middle-sized players. I was talking to, and.
Mike Fritello this week. also this is something that Kenny, excuse me, that Kobe mentioned at his press conference. The growth of Miles Turner is astounding from when he first came in to, you know, how he plays now. And I think that’s part of how the Cavaliers are relying on Evan Mobley. I’m not sure I would have said, and I’m pretty sure I got this quote right, where Kobe said at this point, we’ll go as far as Evan Mobley will take us.
I think that’s a lot to ask right now of him because I’m not sure he’s going to become this great all-around player that they think. And that, I mean, this guy was going to score 25 points and get all the rebounds and be the defensive player of the year. And that he could still, you know, he’s fairly close to average in 20 now. I think he ever 17 or whatever it was, but I’m, I’m not there yet.
David Campbell (09:39.938)
Why?
Terry Pluto (10:05.996)
And he still was an all star and everything else, but I just, I did, I could be wrong, but I just don’t see that he’s the guy that’s, you’re going to strap the whole thing and carry them on his back. What you want to do actually is develop a team much like Indiana. Yes, Halliburton’s their star, but you know, he has this sometimes he has some so-so gains in there and they, they won anyway. They’re, they were a real team.
David Campbell (10:29.41)
Yeah, I think we were talking about this a little bit last week, Terry, that they’re very interchangeable. Like they, they’re very switchable and they’re able to guard different positions. I feel like the calves have kind of small guys, medium sized guys, and then big guys. And there’s, they kind of fit into their own category. And there’s not a lot of, you know, back in, back in 1989, the,
Terry Pluto (10:34.499)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (10:51.16)
flying a line I like that was how they were built to it was like just a bunch of guys who could who look the same play the same and could switch on to anybody that they needed a guard so
Terry Pluto (10:56.964)
Mm-hmm.
That’s one of the thoughts that you try to get in the NBA. There’s going be everybody between six foot six and six foot nine. I don’t know about that. for a while there was some truth to that, but then they became three point obsessed and it’s hard to find guys at that size who could also shoot three pointers. Well, first of all, keep this in mind. Even if you’re thinking about making a significant change, say trade Allen or trade
Garland, if Kobe Altman, you’re not going to in any way hint about that. There is no way, you know, these guys are my guys basically till they’re not. And you do not want any of those guys to get any sort of negative vibe. Now I, I tend to think Kobe was generally telling the truth and his confidence in the core four and that, but I always keep that in the back of my mind that this is how you approach it.
David Campbell (11:54.722)
Right. Okay, let me, we got two more here and then we’ll kind of get back to what you heard today, all How about that, Terry? So this next one’s from David F. And again, we appreciate everybody sending these in. I think we asked last week, like, hey, the losses just happened, process it, send us in your thoughts. We really got some great emails this week. David F. says, thinking about what were the weaknesses of the Cavs, there’s one area that no one is mentioning, the coaching of Atkinson. During the year, Indy would do a full court press and Cleveland couldn’t handle it. They mentioned at the time, no one does that anymore.
Terry Pluto (12:04.624)
Well.
David Campbell (12:24.492)
Well, heading into these playoffs, there needed to be a lot more practice on inbounding, handling the press, and basic little things that Carlisle emphasizes. I had hoped that they would have been better prepared for it. I like this team and the way they play. They have weak spots, but all in all, they are better and deeper than just about any team. Again, that’s from David F. And then here’s one last one from Joe Maroon. And Joe says, Terry, I love your writing on sports and faith and have many of your books. I grew up in Akron and now live in the Richmond, Virginia area.
but still root for all the Cleveland teams and read sports on cleveland.com every day. Thanks, Joe. Here’s my question. It appeared on TV that Kenny Atkinson stopped believing and stopped actively coaching in games four and five. He was sitting on the bench most of the time. The TV cameras showed him instead of being up and coaching the team stopped passing the ball around and started having one guy dribble, then shoot usually a three that they too often missed. I thought coach Atkinson did a great job throughout the season to get them to play team basketball.
and make the pass to the open players. So what happened in round two? Did you see it that way too? Thanks. And again, that’s from Joe Maroon.
Terry Pluto (13:25.572)
Well, I think after the game for everybody, we should have just sat down at the bench at halftime and gone home. So I’m not gonna throw that out. Yeah. I mean, Kenny style, he isn’t like up and around all the time. That’s just not his style. He’s more there where JB is always up and JB is always on the officials. that, Atkinson and that regard reminds me more of Lenny Wilkins was more of the, you know, kind of you get up when you really need to,
David Campbell (13:30.894)
Yes.
Terry Pluto (13:54.768)
rely on your assistant some, I’m not sure that had a big bearing. The big problem with why the offense, and this is a Lenny Wilkins term, discombobulated. I remember I had to look up how to spell it. We got discombobulated once a month when I was covering him about the offense is that it was disrupted by Indiana disrupted because Garland’s with the toe and Garland totally lost confidence in his game.
David Campbell (14:08.494)
You
Terry Pluto (14:24.382)
disrupted and this is where he could maybe fault Kenny that he didn’t find somebody else to help, bring the ball up. By the way, you know, who did it a little bit and did it successfully was Hunter DeAndre Hunter a few times. In fact, they had a, a group of guys out there where it was either Mitchell in the back court, but Hunter was the other guard and they went big across the front with Wade and, the two big guys.
Or they took out Allen and they had a Coro in there, but actually was Hunter was playing the other guard. And that, that, that was when they got that big lead in the second quarter of the game of game five. and, but it’s sort of, think in the anime, some adjustments and took it away. But, you know, you look at this.
Kobe is correct. mean, the main guys in a team are between 23 and 28. Kobe’s also correct about most playoff teams that go deep into playoffs go through several years of a lot of frustration and pain. That’s how it goes. Kobe actually did not like my question about the two small guards and simply tossed it off on, well, Donovan and Garland showed that
They could play well together in a regular season. did counter with, but Kobe in the playoffs, you know, what about that? Which he then tossed on the, the toe factor on Garland and let that go. Now, whether that is what exactly he believes or just what he wanted out there, I would, I still am back where I was a year ago. I think we did do this in the last podcast that I, I’m not thrilled on the backcourt makeup. I’m just not.
I’ll tell you one thing, this shows if nothing else, you gotta go get another guard that can handle the ball. He didn’t have to be great. Or he was sitting there and his name was Craig Porter Jr. and he never was used.
David Campbell (16:28.076)
Yeah, it’s something they’re going to have to think about. was trying to, I should have gone through and put a list together. I was trying to think of how many guys Garland size in the last 10 years have had a lot of playoff success. And I mean, you know, you look at the Nixon, what’s going on there with Brunson, but he, like you mentioned last week, Terry, they’re, different animals. He and Darius Garland are different. They might have similar height, but they play a different kind of game. And he’s, he’s built like a football player.
Terry Pluto (16:49.071)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (16:53.2)
Yeah, I’ll your butt from one end of the other. You know, I’m used to, I use those Avermarris thing about, uh, how, um, and with Donovan, you know, it represents that, but he’s kind of, you know, built low to the ground and everything too. But Brunson he’ll just bully you. He really will. He’s unique. Uh, and dare, you know, Darius, uh, I did ask also, cause I kind of hit him with three quick questions about durability and.
David Campbell (16:56.641)
Yeah!
Terry Pluto (17:22.512)
He said, yeah, he has to get stronger, but other guys and he just did not want to get into Garland. Kobe, I mean.
David Campbell (17:31.778)
Yeah, it’s tough. The wounds are still raw. so, you know, I like to kind of do some hockey comparisons sometimes. The Toronto Maple Leafs, which play in this incredibly high pressure market in Toronto. People are fanatical about the team. The entire province of Ontario are just rabid fans. It’s kind of like a little bit of Canada’s team. They haven’t won a Stanley Cup since 1967.
Terry Pluto (17:33.85)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (17:55.216)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (17:58.12)
And they won their division. They lost game five at home in an embarrassing fashion to Florida. Then they won game six on the road, came back for game seven and went out and laid an egg last night. And there are two, two of the best players are free agents and everybody’s like time to blow it up. Right? Like this is not working. People were throwing their jerseys onto the ice from the stands at the end of game five. That’s how embarrassed they were with the effort they saw that night. So anyway, that’s.
Terry Pluto (18:15.802)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (18:20.784)
HAHA
David Campbell (18:27.598)
there’s like a life cycle of franchises, right? And it doesn’t feel like the Cavs are at the, we need to make a lot of, they don’t feel this way, but you think they need to make some kind of a big change here this off season in the backcourt, right, Terry? Am I summarizing that right? That you think they need to do something here.
Terry Pluto (18:42.544)
At the very least they either need to...
Terry Pluto (18:50.8)
I’m stopping because I want to put this together in my head correctly before I say it. If you trade Garland, it’s got to be a significant deal. It just can’t be a dump job. That’s what it is because it is hard to replace what he brings in the regular season in that. I would like to see them add a guard with some size who could play in the backcourt and maybe even play some small forward. know, Struz is sort of like that.
But maybe somebody else just to get help with the ball handling. I, just really believe that the, back court was more of a liability in the playoffs then. And as, you know, you go back to the year before, and they got all that trouble there, but he was hurt then. And, know, it’s, it’s, I know it’s a hard thing for them to try to get their head around what exactly they should do with, with this, but,
I really think they are afraid, their view now is they’d rather wait one more year and be gone too long with this group than dump out a year too early just as it’s getting ready to jail. That’s where I think where they’re at. It’s tough though. It’s hard to go from good to great. that’s what they’re going to be pounding their heads against the wall on me.
Kenny Atkinson, part of the reason he didn’t look as good in the playoffs is he just didn’t have the roster he had in the playoffs. That was, mean, the regular season, the regular season, they had no major injuries, none, zero. I mean, yes, some of those guys faced 72 games or whatever out of 82 reason being that was those designated breasts. The frustrating thing for the franchise, the, the, deep thinkers was that they put all these minutes restrictions and games for resting.
to make sure you’re healthy for the playoffs. Well, you were healthy for the playoffs and then guys got hurt. know, Garland mashed his foot into somebody. I’m not sure exactly when that happened. Mowby went up for a hook shot after he threw it, came down on, I think it was miles Turner’s foot or somebody’s foot on top of it. Kenny was mad cause he thought, maybe the guy was under him, but it was a basketball injury. But yeah, but it wasn’t, yeah, but the injury, correct. And then finally, you know, when
David Campbell (21:04.992)
It should have been a foul. It should have been a foul, but anyway, that wouldn’t have changed the injury.
Terry Pluto (21:12.644)
Hunter went to the room, got knocked to the floor and jammed his, his hand as he tried to break the fall and dislocated a thumb. So.
David Campbell (21:20.462)
And then your, you know, one of your six, your six men of the year candidate is totally off his game and ineffective. So I can see why they feel like they have what it takes. It’s like everything happened at the same time that went wrong all at once. And if you’re a coach, there’s only so much you can do. I agree with some of what our emailers are saying. Like they could have been better prepared, but it might not have mattered. It might not have mattered with those injuries and the limitations.
Terry Pluto (21:27.344)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (21:35.087)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (21:43.299)
Yeah.
I mean, it’s just like, you know, they could have played Porter more, but does that win the series? No. some people wanted Tristan Thompson to go throw some bodies around. Well, okay, fine. But does that get the ball up the court against pressure, get the ball in bounds? No, it doesn’t. Might make you feel better because he committed some files, but overall actually the Cavs did out rebound Indiana in that series. And, and they actually had twice as many offensive rebounds.
is Indiana. the thing that was, I think, defensively to, Indiana’s it’s like controlled chaos. They’re offense. I just go flying down there, but they kind of, the guys sort of know what spots they want to run to. And the ball just flies from one end of the court to the other, a little bit like how the calves are playing earlier in the season. And the nice thing there for like, if you notice at Halliburton,
They don’t, there’s not a lot of stress on him. He’s not bringing the ball up against pressure. You know, he brings it up sometimes. Sometimes he doesn’t. He kind of hunts for his favorite spots to shoot. they go Indiana through more passes per possession during the regular season, any other team. And they got the ball past half court faster than any other team. Thank you, Mike, for telling for those stats that he gave me. And it looked like it when you watch them play.
David Campbell (23:08.782)
So a lot of what you’re talking about Terry is the the quote unquote mental toughness and mental stress that the Pacers put on a team and you’ve been talking about potential moves bringing in a bigger guard but when it comes to mental toughness like I guess it’s the same thing you can try and bring somebody in from the outside to add some of that or the guys on the team now have to figure it out and get tougher. How does how what is mental toughness and how does this team get it?
Terry Pluto (23:13.316)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (23:36.548)
Well, one of things you do as a coach where you’ve been exposed with this, pressing defense and things or whatever, is you design your practices more to bring that in, you know, more pressure. I don’t know how they preg, cause you don’t see practices. know, they, every time you’re walking in gym, shooting free throws or something. to, to put that, you know, I’m sure Kenny has 14,000. He’s Mr. Drills. He’s got all these drills and everything else to put more pressure on these guys.
And by that, mean pressure of dealing with a full court press, whatever. Secondly, it should practice that more. You know what that’ll do is it’ll build up your endurance. And I think that was exposed that maybe the Cavs need more endurance to handle this. Indiana is unique. You know, if they were playing the Knicks or whatever, it’d be a totally different game. You saw the scores there, just like Miami. You know, the Cavs, also what they wanted to do was play Celtic style basketball.
You know, where they’re firing up all these threes and that they just weren’t making them. And part of it was the offense was, was completely disrupted by Indiana. And that was the thing that I never saw coming that they were going to have so much trouble against pressure. And they did.
David Campbell (24:55.566)
Well, yeah, it’s kind of like this Cavs team was built to beat Boston and they ended up not having to play Boston. got something totally different and it was...
Terry Pluto (24:59.726)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody sat around and say, well, we got to make sure we’re ready to beat Indiana. Even though Indiana went to the final four last year, by the way, by the way, I want the Pacers to win the whole thing. I do. I love the way they play. I know they knocked off Cleveland. It’d be fun to see Carlisle do it. He was sort of engaging to be around. And, I just,
David Campbell (25:07.138)
Yeah. Yeah.
David Campbell (25:11.47)
All right.
David Campbell (25:15.874)
Yeah, that would be fun, wouldn’t it?
Terry Pluto (25:30.084)
They play team basketball. I mean, the average NBA fan probably can’t name four guys on the Pacers or three. And that’s cool.
David Campbell (25:36.866)
Yeah. If they were playing in New York, they sure would. The whole country would be a totally different, they’d be on TV every night. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (25:41.164)
Yes, they would. Well, yeah, that’s going to be fun to see that because two contrasting skiles, two old Greybeard coaches going at it, the grumpy tibs. And Karlo always strikes me just kind of bemused by things. It’s like, you know, like when he was acute, said about
Atkinson’s complain about the files. By the way, I thought that was a bad move by him where he went back to that well about three times. Once is fine, possibly two, but not three. but yeah, remember for parallel goes, well, it’s the first time in all these years we’ve been ever accused of being too physical. And then he shrugged and smiled. It’s like, just like that, that was better than outrage or whatever. And he, he goes, that’s right. Like when did the Pacers become, you know, the, the bad boy pistons or something? I mean, when did this happen?
or even the nicks of a couple years ago, when did that happen?
David Campbell (26:40.504)
Yeah, yeah. All right, I do want to mention real quick. We’ve been talking about mental toughness. There’s some great reporting and writing by Chris Fedor and Ethan Sands about that topic over the last week. Our two Cavs Beatwriters, if you want to check that out at cleveland.com slash Cavs. They also did a podcast last week and we actually got an email about this, Terry. This idea that’s been floating around about should the Cavs move Evan Mobley to the Bucks.
For Yanis, we have an email here from Joel and he says, I’m not even sure it would be a good idea, but do you see the Cavs making a trade for Yanis? Maybe Jared and Darius, both of whom I love. Yanis would bring not only his talent, but also the fierceness Terry seems to think is lacking. Curious what you think. Thanks. Thanks for that Joel. I think Jimmy Watkins joined Chris and Ethan on the podcast, the Cavs podcast last week, and they seem to think that Evan Mobley was the only way that
Yanis would end up playing for the Cavs next season. I guess the idea of trait that
Terry Pluto (27:37.56)
Yeah, yeah, my question was, why do I, why, if I’m Milwaukee, I need draft picks because it’s like, they don’t have any draft picks coming up. Why do I want Darius on a max contract and he physically has broken down the last couple of playoffs and Jared’s a nice player. By the way, I wrote about this for the weekend, but about Jared, first of all, do you know Deandre Hunter makes more money than he does? Yeah. Fifth on the team in payroll.
David Campbell (28:03.33)
Yeah, it’s crazy to think about.
Terry Pluto (28:07.108)
He was the 85th highest paid player on the NBA and he made, mean, it’s an astounding amount of money, but remember NBA is all fun and yeah.
David Campbell (28:15.278)
Well, it was like a total guardians move, right? Like they were out ahead of the market when they traded for Jared Allen, and now they have him on a controllable contract at a very, very reasonable price. I you had that in your column. He’s going to be below $100 in salary next season, right?
Terry Pluto (28:20.591)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (28:24.758)
Right. And, and, you know.
Yeah. then after these other, right. And so, and then also I suggested if they want to, uh, make him into a hot, hot rod, Williams style, six man, big man coming off the bench. If they wanted to look a little differently. And you see, I know Jared made the one all-star team and everybody talks, Jared up, but except them for what he is. He’s a pretty good big man where it’s hard to find any and I have people go, well, they are trained to Lakers. Why do I want to give them to the Lakers?
for what some, you know, Austin Reeves or something. No, man, you know, I’m not giving this guy away. Also, Evan Mobley. Now he had an ankle injury in the playoffs and he had a high ankle sprain the year before. am, I want Jared is depth behind, um, Evan. And frankly, if you’re going to play these small guards, you’re going to need some big size underneath. I mean, you could say you get Dwight Dean way, but this guy’s hurt all the time. You know, it’s a.
It’s another problem there. anything, I wouldn’t mind them picking up sort of a marginal big man from somewhere, but we shall see.
David Campbell (29:34.488)
Yeah, so the question I guess would be if the Cavs needed to give up Evan Mobley to get Yanis, would you make that trade, Terry?
Terry Pluto (29:44.688)
Hmm.
David Campbell (29:46.85)
Giannis is 30, I think, right now, and what Evan Mobley is 23.
Terry Pluto (29:49.068)
Yeah, yeah, how much does my Yanis go left on his contract too?
David Campbell (29:55.49)
You had to look that up. I think he just signed a couple of years ago.
Terry Pluto (29:56.76)
Yeah. I’d have to think, I’d have to think about it. I, I, know, cause it just kind of came out of nowhere on me, but the other trade of course, yes, I would trade Jarrett and, and Darius for, for Yanis and the, and the, and the GM who does that in Milwaukee should immediately be fired. so that would, that would be that, because, but really I forgot what Milwaukee’s draft situation is, but it’s horrendous. I mean, they,
David Campbell (30:11.308)
No questions asked.
Terry Pluto (30:26.34)
They, yeah, they went all in, yeah.
David Campbell (30:27.054)
They went all in, yeah. All right, so Yanis is signed for three more seasons after this one. He’ll be a free agent after the 27-28 season. In that 27-28 season, he will make almost 63 million. It goes 54, 58, and almost 63, 62.7 for 20, 27, 28.
Terry Pluto (30:48.462)
You would have to put another high price player in there with.
David Campbell (30:53.356)
Might take Mobley and Allen or Garland, right? Garland for sure, but.
Terry Pluto (30:55.364)
Garland. Yeah, Garland, yeah. Would they want to do that? Yeah, I don’t know.
David Campbell (31:00.268)
make the salaries match.
Terry Pluto (31:08.121)
It’s an interesting thing. I don’t think it’s going anywhere, but, good for a podcast. Yeah.
David Campbell (31:14.126)
Why not right? All right. Here’s a little bit of a different question As we continue on the Cavs here. This one is from Joel I’m sorry. This one is from KK. We just did Joel and KK says Terry I’ve tremendously enjoyed watching the Cavs play over the recent seasons primarily for three reasons They have a majority of players that have been with the team for over three years. They’re really nice guys and in an era of pro basketball It’s hard to find teams where we can say that’s true. That’s why I’ve been so easily able to embrace them. They play a good
Terry Pluto (31:35.183)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (31:43.864)
brand of basketball that’s very skillful and team oriented. They’re fundamentally very sound. The problem I have is why are they penalized during the playoffs for having to play a different brand of basketball because quote the game is officiated differently during the playoffs and quote follows that are called during the regular season aren’t follows in the playoffs. Playoff basketball is the brand that I can’t stand watching. It’s not fundamental. It’s just how much can you push shove hit and sometimes mug it and get away with.
Nothing is defined. So the Cavs aren’t used to playing that way. Plus they’re not very good at it when they try. I would love to have someone like you address this with the NBA. They don’t change the strike zone in MLB or offsides in the NFL during the playoffs. I can see calling things closer, but not differently. And that again is from KK. So what do you think of that Terry? The playoff officiating.
Terry Pluto (32:33.644)
All right. I was talking to Mike Fratello while driving to the press conference and he said to me, did you watch Denver and okay. See, I said, I turned it on. Roberta and I went out to eat and then some other stuff and turn it on. And it was a blowout in the third quarter. And he said, they just allowed okay. See to totally mug Yoke Hitch. And he actually echoed much of what was just written there by was a KK you said. Yeah. And.
David Campbell (33:00.574)
KK, yeah.
Terry Pluto (33:03.15)
By the way, when Fratello coached, he liked to have guys grab people and everything, but it was even a little much for him. And I said, yeah, some of these games are like the NBA, the nineties, which led to all the, rules about grabbing people. know, they, they were calling all these files away from the ball and everything else to do that. And, know, if you want it and you’re an official in hockey, correct. Aren’t you David?
I mean, if you want to clean it up, you can clean it up. You just call a bunch of files early and say, this is not going to happen.
David Campbell (33:38.872)
So would you like to see it change? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (33:40.943)
Absolutely. Yeah. Freedom of movement. that, you know, the one of the ways that, uh, that they hope to clean up some of the action under the rim was, you know, to, to the five quote unquote five out, shooting a lot of three pointers to, uh, create that. But I just, you know, some of those, and I forgot what game I was watching. It was one of the next games. I think that was brutal too.
And of course, Indiana was grabbing a hole. Indiana’s, you know, they’re not like flat out dirty elbow to your jaw or whatever, but they do a lot of holding grabbing jerseys and that. you know, fans hate it when the game is stopped by those calls away from the ball, but that is the only way to clean it up. And this would be one of those things where they always in the beginning of the year, it’s a point of emphasis. They need to tell people who are in the playoffs that no.
Here’s the point of emphasis and wait till you see these calls in the first game or two. Be ready boys. That’s what I would do.
David Campbell (34:46.382)
You mean before the playoffs have a point or are talking about the season as a whole? yeah, did change. I mean, I remember the Legion of Boom with the Seattle Seahawks, they figured we’re just going to hold on every play because we know their defensive backs. They’re not going to call holding on us every single play. So it’s kind of the same mentality.
Terry Pluto (34:50.478)
both.
Terry Pluto (34:54.927)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (35:02.852)
But if you start calling it, otherwise that would be a standard strategy all the time. If you call a couple early in there, and yeah, in that first game or two, I don’t know. That’s the only thing I could think to do.
David Campbell (35:14.602)
set the tone.
David Campbell (35:20.056)
So I guess going back to my question, to KK’s question, I would follow with if the Cavs are playing one way in the regular season and this is the way the playoffs are going to be, do they need to change the way they’re playing? I guess that’s the big question from KK’s email.
Terry Pluto (35:33.644)
I suppose, but...
David Campbell (35:41.826)
We’re deep in thought here on Terry’s Talking.
Terry Pluto (35:42.968)
I’m right I am because I’m thinking about okay, I’m thinking about the Celtics, you know, they’re they didn’t play that way. They want to title that way. They didn’t play that way. And that’s why I’m trying to go through my mind. Denver, when they won the title, did not play that way. So it isn’t a guarantee of anything. New York did play that way and found they had to go trade for some more offensive players to try to win. You know, they made their deal for Townsend and Noby and that and Bridges.
David Campbell (35:50.082)
That’s true.
Terry Pluto (36:11.19)
there’s still have a defensive identity, but nothing like that group that faced the Cavs a couple of years ago in the playoffs. So it only takes you so far, but I just didn’t think in general, you can, you can clean this up fairly easily by just being, I’m sticking to this point and this is what it is. I’m serious. If I were silver, I would say we want, you would be telling the teams this, but I would even announce it for the playoffs. I want to see more freedom of movement and just.
I want to see regular season basketball see it called that way and you start going the other way. You’re going to hear a lot of whistles. The games are not going to be fun to watch. So you get back to playing games that are fun to watch.
David Campbell (36:51.16)
Yeah, we’re going to have 40 fouls called in the first quarter otherwise. Yeah, yeah. All right, well, great question, KK. Thanks for getting us off on that discussion. All right, Terry, anything else to wrap up from the Cavs today when you’re out there? that... All right. Well, let’s take a break here. When we come back, we’ll talk a little bit of Browns and we’ve got to get into the Guardians who are coming off a long weekend in Cincinnati. There’s a lot to get into there in terms of changes that they might want to make here since we’re getting close to June.
Terry Pluto (36:53.679)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (37:03.075)
Nah, I think that’s it.
David Campbell (37:20.184)
Get into that and more when we return. Terry’s talking.
David Campbell (40:39.448)
Hey, we’re back on Terry’s talking. I want to mention Terry’s newsletter real quick as we do every week. Check it out if you haven’t. It comes out every Wednesday at noon. Go to cleveland.com slash Pluto. Go to the blue bar at the top. You can subscribe there. You get two weeks free and there’s all kinds of great insight. Always full of thoughtful analysis, contract stuff, behind scenes things that Terry’s hearing. So go check it out. You will love it. All right. Why don’t we do the Browns real quick, Terry, since
Terry Pluto (41:08.399)
OK.
David Campbell (41:08.866)
I’ve got some stuff queued up here but they’re heading into OTAs here the next couple weeks where all the quarterbacks and all the players who agree to show up. We’re thinking all four quarterbacks are gonna show up even though it’s kind of voluntary. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (41:19.576)
I have a question. I have a question. OTA stands for what?
David Campbell (41:23.594)
organized team activities.
Terry Pluto (41:25.873)
What about a DTA? Disorganized team activities. Why don’t they have call it that?
David Campbell (41:33.676)
Yeah, that’s a... You want to be organized, Terry. You don’t want to be the disorganized.
Terry Pluto (41:36.941)
That was honor of Les Levine. I did that for you. There you go. Okay. How come quickie? Yeah.
David Campbell (41:39.95)
Yeah, it’s like a how come quickie so But and then they’ll be heading into many camps in June before they break for the summer and then come back for training camp So we do have a bronze question here from Pat Clary Pat’s from Chicago He lives in Chicago, but he’s originally from Akron and he says hey Terry listening to and reading the recent draft coverage I was wondering if you have a sense for how the Haslam’s view the 2016 era rebuild given almost a decade of hindsight
Terry Pluto (41:56.708)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (42:07.918)
Do they see the 0-16, 1-15 years as the correct process that involved the necessary pain to obtain elite players like Garrett Chubb Ward and the chance to select the QB at number one? Or do they feel that the extreme rebuild was unnecessary? Knowing how the Hazlem family feels about those years could give us an idea of what to expect over the next one to two seasons. Thanks again, that’s from Pat Cleary. Thanks, Pat.
Terry Pluto (42:32.014)
I don’t think they want to go through it again or else you would not have seen them go out and get Kenny Pickett and sign Joe Flacco.
David Campbell (42:40.278)
I agree. They’re basically trying to change the tires while they’re kind of going down the road, right? Or I don’t know what a good analogy would be.
Terry Pluto (42:46.128)
They’re doing more of a guardians thing, know, the old Terry Francona, know, the thread in the needle.
David Campbell (42:52.29)
We want to be competitive every year.
Terry Pluto (42:54.16)
I mean, that was the one thing that Paul Dolan insisted, you know, he wasn’t like, Oh, you need to trade for this guy or whatever. But I was told this by Mark Shapiro and I was told this by, um, also Chris Antonetti, Paul Dolan said, we are not setting out to lose a hundred games. I am not inflicting that on my, my customers and my fans. I don’t want to see it. You’re not doing it. And I think you go back and you look at.
They actually were four and 44 in that era of what 14 or 15, 16, 17, whatever that three year era there. And, and you know, what did they get them? Not got them Garland. Excuse me, Garland, Garrett, excuse me. You don’t want to draft, you’re in football. You really don’t want to draft Darius Garland. I would not suggest that, but they got Garrett. They got Garrett. You know, you got Baker, you got Denzel Ward.
Um, and you got chubb. That was a, uh, Dorsey draft. Um, you, you you missed on some guys and you look back and say, all right. Uh, the, where they really kind of fell apart is some of the trading downs that they did, especially that 2016 year, you know, that whole, went from like number two to, forgot where they took to 15. I think it was when they took the.
the kid from Bay or the receiver whose name escapes me at the moment, Corey Coleman, the great Corey Coleman. That’s why my name, his name escapes me because it should. He was so bad. And, and, and the other guys from that draft. So I don’t think they want to do that anymore. The other thing is working behind some of their moves and that is I really believe that part of the reason they were so gung-ho on bringing Watson is cause they, the stadium thing was coming.
David Campbell (44:27.982)
Corey Coleman. Yep.
Terry Pluto (44:52.976)
And they wanted to see if they could, you know, build up something, take, you know, the, we just talked about the calves go from good to great. That’s what they tried to do there. Cause they were good in 2020. They were not in 21, but there was a huge asterisk next to it because of Baker being hurt and the mess with Odell and all that. Uh, there was no reason to look at that team and assume that, uh, it was going to just be awful.
And so, but that’s what they did. And I think they know now they can’t turn around and go, you know, three and 14 again.
David Campbell (45:31.81)
Yeah, and they don’t want to. mean, it’s embarrassing for the whole organization to go three and 14, right? Like, and they have some players on this team, some good players. And I think they just feel like they’re not going to put all their eggs into one person like they did with Deshaun. They’re going to rely on strength in numbers to quote the old Warriors motto. This is what they’re going to do. I think they’ve said it flat out. We’re going to look for good football players. I’m going to throw them out on the field.
Terry Pluto (45:36.026)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (45:55.65)
And also like when I wrote about over the weekend about the, what I heard about the draft and we talked about a lot of it first before it went in print was.
Terry Pluto (46:08.304)
They would say, Andrew Baring is for an office at okay, quarterback is the most important position on the field. And we don’t have a quarterback. We got a chance to draft two.
both successful in college. So we’ll take two, even though we have Flacco. When we signed Flacco, I’m speaking like the Browns, but we didn’t know we were gonna take two. But why not take two? So let’s just do it. Because odds are this franchise plays three every year anyway or more.
David Campbell (46:44.056)
Yeah, most teams do now. Jeez, with the injuries and everything.
Terry Pluto (46:45.42)
Yeah. So, so why not? And, and see what you got. And you can always trade Flacco for a fifth round pick or pick it for a fifth round pick or something like that. anyway, so I, I don’t think they want to do it anymore. And I think they look at it and say, was it really worth it? I think the answer is no. You got the one playoff victory.
David Campbell (47:08.376)
Yeah, it’s ancient history now. think the plan is we’re going to try to start winning. We’ve got our GM and our coach signed for another few years and let’s see what they can do. And then they’ll make a decision as those contracts start to run out.
Terry Pluto (47:16.09)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (47:19.672)
Yeah, let’s see. Let’s see what we can do without the Watson hanging over everything. We’ll see what we can do when we’re allowed to draft again. You know, this would be, again, speaking from the Browns, like the we not that I’m there, but just if I were running the Browns and that would be exactly what I would say. All right, guys, you know, the Watson thing was a big swing and miss. I just admitted it, you know, so we got to dig out what you guys did with that trade on draft data, start to some draft picks. Now let’s see what you can do. You know, nobody’s
You don’t be forcing any of these quarterbacks down your throat. You pick who you think. That’s what I like. Pick who you think fits the pick who you think develop on how you want. All right. You’re football guys. Here’s your job.
David Campbell (48:02.094)
Yeah, and as you wrote a couple weeks ago, Kevin Stefanski gets to pick his own quarterback for a change. So yeah, yeah. All right, well, as we said, the Browns will be heading down the stretch here through OTAs and mini camps and then training camp will be here shortly in July. all right, Terry, there’s a lot to talk about with the Guardians. I don’t think we’ve said this in a long time. The third place Guardians who are now behind the Twins and Detroit. I think they’re five and a half games behind Detroit, which is off to a 31 and 16 start.
Terry Pluto (48:05.476)
And he’s gotta be, gotta be relieved by that.
Terry Pluto (48:23.632)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:27.973)
Yeah.
David Campbell (48:31.138)
The Guardians were swept down in Cincinnati and Terry Francona over the weekend. They went three for 21 with runners in scoring position in that series. And we do have an email here from Neil in Jamestown, New York and Neil says, Hey Terry, I like your idea that on a typical baseball roster, a third of the players are exceeding expectations, a third are meeting expectations and a third are falling below expectations. With that in mind, how would you size up?
Terry Pluto (48:40.944)
I didn’t think it was that good. I’m serious. seemed like they never got to hit one of anybody’s scoring position.
David Campbell (49:01.026)
the Guardian’s roster at the quarter marker. So you go back to that three for twenty one with runners in scoring position Terry like like there’s some some of these batting averages like big Christmas is I think hitting 150 Nolan Jones 181 like there’s a lot of guys in the 100s here.
Terry Pluto (49:13.264)
All right, big Christmas. Big Christmas. All right. First of all, we’ll go through some of them. Big Christmas. They’ve got to send him to the miners. He’s had 84 plate appearances. He’s got four extra base hits, two doubles, two homers. In those 84 plate appearances, he struck out 27 times and he’s at 150. It’s an embarrassment. It makes no sense to half him here. Please send them out. Even if it means...
David Campbell (49:20.494)
Alright, let’s do it.
Terry Pluto (49:43.408)
And I’m not a big Jonathan Rodriguez fan, even if it means bringing up Jonathan Rodriguez. But I was looking at it thinking, well, he play him against lefties. Now, Jonathan is really having a nice year at triple A where he’s hitting 336, 812 OPS. So I said, well, he’s got to be hitting lefties. If he hit in 336 and you’re right handed batting, he got to be hitting lefties. He’s batted 20 times against lefties Dave Campbell. And he has how many hits?
David Campbell (50:13.912)
Four. Two.
Terry Pluto (50:14.736)
Two for 20. He’s like he’s sitting like 365 against righties and he’s hitting 100 against lefties. I’d probably bring him up anyway because I just can’t watch big Christmas anymore. Now the other thing you do have Lane Thomas coming soon. You know what I forgot? How bad Lane Thomas was hitting before he got hurt. He was seven for 45. It’s like yikes, but I know we’ve seen it before. This guy’s cold and then he gets hot and
You know, so, and he does have a much better career batting average against lefties and righties. So that’s probably the move they’re going to make. Big Christmas goes down and Thomas comes up. Meanwhile, the guy we, we advertised to her about a month ago, CJ Cafas, he is hitting 379 at triple A. One 086, he’s a left-handed hitter. so I broke down his splits.
By the way, between double and triple A is 371. I mean, he’s you know, he’s not hitting a ton of home runs because he hit her. He’s hitting 286 against lefty 396 against righties. You know, that could be something that coming up there, but the big Christmas thing that’s got to go. Okay. Who else you got?
David Campbell (51:28.888)
Well, I was going to mention about Kephas Terry. I was looking at his main numbers and he’s betting 377 in May so far. And I think they played at Omaha over the weekend. The last four games of that series, he went two for three, four for six, three for four, two for four. And I know you’ve been talking about how they’re trying to get him more reps in the outfield. And I think he’s played 13 games in the outfield this season, right? And 18 games at first base. I think.
Terry Pluto (51:30.67)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (51:42.416)
David Campbell (51:56.493)
Maybe they’re trying to build up some of those outfield appearances just to get them used to being out there before they try. But do you think we’re gonna see him? I mean, you didn’t mention him as somebody they should bring up youth. It’ll be Lane Thomas first, obviously, because he’s a veteran and has shown he can do it. But I mean, how far behind is Kafas do you think?
Terry Pluto (51:58.661)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (52:09.07)
Yeah, because I’m trying to find some
Well, I’m trying to find somebody that could hit a left-handed pitcher. And because I didn’t know this, the Guardians have faced lefty starters in nine games. And Dave Campbell, what do think their record is in those nine games? You got it! Look at you! Only a hockey ref would know that. Now, there are two in seven.
David Campbell (52:30.542)
Two and seven? Yeah.
David Campbell (52:35.79)
That’s right.
Terry Pluto (52:41.764)
So that’s why I was looking like a Jonathan Rodriguez. mean, Kate, could do, they could bring up KFIST. I mean, we could probably send Noel out now. Then the other question is, you know, the rest of the roster, who do you, who do you send down? And the other answer is who would it be in the outfield?
David Campbell (53:01.038)
To send down Well, I’m I don’t think Will Wilson’s in our field but he’s not doing much either he’s a roster spot you could probably Do without right is it who are you thinking?
Terry Pluto (53:13.132)
All right, you do. They don’t want to do it. Nolan Jones. Yeah. Yeah. Now he’s had a couple of hits lately, but all right. Haven’t done her a Weaver for like two weeks. And, and so, you know, they have no one Jones with all the, what velocity off the bat and the hard hit outs and that. And I remember one time we were talking to Weaver about something or other and, said about, you know, guy set the ball hard or whatever, and he’s not getting anything and Weaver’s
David Campbell (53:15.19)
Nolan Jones, 181, right?
Terry Pluto (53:42.885)
Well, if he hit the bleeping ball over the bleeping fence, that would solve that problem.
Terry Pluto (53:52.08)
or off the wall. He goes, that works too. And he said, I do understand. mean, either every step, but sometimes and I will, and it was a big guy. can’t remember physically. That’s why I thought of it with Nolan Jones is a big guy. It was like a shit head home runs. You know, he’s got, let’s say got two. Um, it’s just, you know, Nolan Jones, you got 121 plate appearances.
You got six doubles and two homers. mean, I don’t know. Daniel Schneeman’s got six homers. I mean, what am I supposed to say here? Stephen Kwan’s got four.
David Campbell (54:31.224)
Yeah, well, I mean, we-
We mentioned the three for 21.
Terry Pluto (54:35.616)
Austin Hedges has three. Yeah. Yeah.
David Campbell (54:38.254)
But you know how it works here. You go three for 21 with the runners in scoring position. The Guardians are already, the bow nailer and hedges combination, you know that that’s like a hole in the lineup, right? And probably always will be unless something changes. You can’t afford to have two giant holes in the lineup. And that’s why they need to do something very soon here, I think, in terms of getting some numbers in production.
Terry Pluto (54:48.208)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (54:56.496)
and that’s why I would be looking at them.
I mean, if you want to do this, send both of those guys out, Noel and Jones, and you bring back Lane Thomas and you try CAFIS.
David Campbell (55:07.522)
Nolan Jones.
Yeah, which we might see that this week.
Terry Pluto (55:13.36)
I mean, bring him up while he’s hot. Why not? That used to be their thing. Never. They tell me bring them up. Well, he’s hot. I mean, I was interested in Rodriguez. I saw two for 20 against lefties. mean, I’d have to look to see what he hit last year, but yikes.
David Campbell (55:29.614)
Alright anything else on the guardians you want to get into minor leaguers or other?
Terry Pluto (55:30.584)
Okay. Yeah, a couple of things here. When you look at the team, you see that...
I was looking at like, where do they rank in different situations? And like an OPS, they’re 22nd and a batting average or 23rd and run scored, they’re 21st, which means they’re in the bottom third in all those categories. and the pitching and this is unusual, but it’s been a problem all year. the issue, the, the guardians are near the best and not walking guys.
They’re 22nd in walks. Here’s the big thing too. Actually, when you break all this down, your surprise are 25 and 21, I may add. The relievers, you remember last year, they are like 2.7 or something, is 4.06, which is 18th, and the starters are 4.21. They’re still winning one-run games, or eight and three, but really, that tells you somehow that
There was kind of kind of their, their record of being four games under right now is sort of soft. And, know, if you go like, who’s playing well, you know, Jose’s back Jose Jose’s amazing. You know, nine homers, nine doubles, eight, 87 OPS, 12 stolen bases. Still mad about being thrown out the other day. I mean, you know how he is. what do think of Angel Martinez? I like him. Um, he’s sitting 294. You’d like to see more extra base hits, but, um, he’s got seven extra bases and 109 plate appearances. But I think he’s, he’s a switch hitter. Uh, he’s an infielder who looks pretty good in the outfield. I really, um, I’m high on him and, you know, so I want to make sure he continues this thing. If you do some of this switching and I’m talking about that, he continues to get some playing time. Um, you know,
Manzardo while the batting average is low 221 everything else is good the 10 homers and 25 RBI’s and I mean right now Manzardo leads a team in homers and RBI’s and He is supplying some Protection for Jose and you know you just look at some of this other stuff that I’m sure they were hoping that they would catch some lightning in a bottle with Nolan Jones
And even though big Christmas did not have a good spring, they decided to bring it up and see. But it’s not happening at all with him. You have to kind of come around to that. All right. For those of us, you know, we’ve got these emails periodically about spin rates and guys thrown hard, not thrown hard. This I never saw coming. The phenomenon of Colby, Colby Allard. Are you ready?
17 innings, Dave Campbell. How many strikeouts does Kobe Allard have? Six, and his ERA is 1.06. And he’s allowed 12 hits and he’s walked only two and he hasn’t given up a home run. And after I do this, I’ll probably go throw batting practice at his next game. Nonetheless, that little crafty lefty as they would call him is doing a really good job. And it shows, you know, we right now,
David Campbell (59:10.05)
Really?
Wow, okay.
Terry Pluto (59:38.704)
Lively’s on the injured list and I hope that’s not serious But it just shows you work in the corners throwing it over the plate, you know that it’s you can get some mileage out of that Now I was what did you watch Chaconi the other day or not? Okay, I was impressed They should have pulled them after five innings he had allowed one run at five innings because he had only thrown like 70 some pitches in the minors and
David Campbell (59:54.35)
I did not, I didn’t get to see him.
Terry Pluto (01:00:06.606)
And I know they try to get him in the sixth and he kind of fell apart in the 16th. He ended up giving up three runs with five innings, struck out eight, didn’t walk anybody. He was thrown mid nineties. looks like he could use a better breaking ball, but I could see in the same way you could see when you watch the, the rotation, when you watch, excuse me, Ortiz, you know, pitching, there’s something there.
And there’s quite a bit to work with. Now we’ll see if they can turn around and make that happen. But he was intriguing to me. He was part of the Josh Naylor deal. Remember, that trade really was Naylor for Carlos Santana for Ciccone and for a second round draft pick next year. Or it is. Basically, it’s like a second rounder. That was a trade. And because...
David Campbell (01:00:56.654)
round B. Yes. Right.
Terry Pluto (01:01:03.408)
They were convinced now, and they were having a nice year. Last I looked at like 306 and whatever for, for Arizona, they were convinced that, um, well, they weren’t going to sign them and they were very worried about their starting pitching. Now. My I’ve talked this guy up before, and I think he should be the next one to come up when they need a response starter. And that’s Parker Messick. Uh, we talked about him in spring training, uh, two and one over 2.63 ERA at,
Columbus, he’s really a polished pitcher. was the ACC pitcher of the year, I think at Florida state or Ford, forgot which, so that would have been SEC, one of those big time schools. And, just, I just love the way he’s changed his speeds, college, college pitcher. I’m high on them.
David Campbell (01:01:53.944)
Yeah. And to just build on that, I mean, I think in a couple of months, Terry, we might see a different looking, like the rotation right now is what like by B or T’s, I guess, Saccone would be in there Williams and Allen. And we heard the other day from the guardians that Shane Bieber is rehabbing coming back from his Tommy John surgery from last April. I think I have this quote from Carl Willis here. know Shane’s live batting practice sessions have been really good.
Terry Pluto (01:01:59.6)
All
Terry Pluto (01:02:05.688)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Campbell (01:02:20.622)
We saw his fastball at 92 to 94 miles an hour in the live BP, so he continues to move forward. He hasn’t had any issues. The next steps are very soon and it sounds like he’s going to be pitching some minor league innings, maybe within the next month.
Terry Pluto (01:02:33.008)
Good. Good. That’s good. I love Bieber. And they got to tell Bieber what Terry Francona would tell Bieber. I don’t care if you throw him 92 miles an hour. Get people out. I don’t care. I don’t want to hear anything about, got to get the fastball back up. And as the old nattering nabobs, the negativism in the media started, I never thought it was quotes. I think it was Spiro Agnew or one of those people in my life. Start talking about your.
velocity show me or run average, which was like 2.9 that year that he, did that. I have to watch him close coming up closer and I, and you try it. Let’s try to do this too. David Tanner, by me in 51 innings, he’s only struck out 35 and he’s allowed 11 homers. I, I don’t know if it’s, need to do a little work on that. You know, some of the, velocity stuff,
something’s going on there. He’s walked 17, so the problem, that’s one every three innings, that’s fine, that’s not a problem. He’s not giving up a ton of hits, but the hits he’s given up are going over the fence. And that’s a concern, you know, to see that. And then finally, finally.
They are trying to send Will Benson to the hall of fame with Pete Rose. I figured that out. That’s why they kept throwing them these crappy slow breaking balls. And I would give Rick Manning right away jumped on it because Will’s dropped his hands down. He’s got this whole new batting stance because I mean, he’s always been a big strong guy with a ton of strikeouts. And right away Manning says, just throw the guy up around the fastball up around the letter. They don’t want hit it.
David Campbell (01:04:00.206)
you
Terry Pluto (01:04:23.76)
But no, they kept throwing this little breaking ball stuff and Will’s a big strong guy. By the way, great person too. He’s just a terrific guy in a lot of areas. I’m happy for him on that. But gone and gone for the four home runs.
David Campbell (01:04:38.414)
Yeah, I think your point about him being a former first round pick of the Guardians, like a lot of guys would have been like, yeah, I was glad to stick it to them. They gave it, they gave up on me too soon. And he was just like, yeah, I don’t care. It’s just another, it’s just another game. Like it’s fine. I know some guys over there and whoever it is, I’m going to try and hit home runs.
Terry Pluto (01:04:50.81)
Yes, right.
Terry Pluto (01:04:55.898)
By the way, Tito, he threw his clothes for three straight days. I’m not saying that he acted like it was any other series, but he acted like it was not any other series when he threw your clothes for three straight days. I think he also wanted to show the old man still has a little juice in him and he’s something special. I’m glad to see him back.
David Campbell (01:05:08.108)
Yeah. I think he was glad with the sweep. He was glad that that
Terry Pluto (01:05:25.58)
You know what is going to happen with the Reds? Start slow, finish strong, the Tito formulas. They’ll probably end up being a contention for something or other playoff thing. he’ll, yeah, he, he, he is so, all right. That’s, that’s my, guardians report.
David Campbell (01:05:38.284)
Yeah, baseball is just more fun when he’s in it. It really is. Yeah.
David Campbell (01:05:45.802)
All right, well, Terry, not to over dramatize here, but the Guardians have three games against the Twins tonight, starting Monday. think Logan Allen’s pitching tonight, Tuesday and Wednesday. And this four game series they have coming up in Detroit this upcoming weekend. Yeah, I mean, it’s going to be fun, they’ve got to split that, right? Because you don’t want to be 10 games out going into June. That’s...
Terry Pluto (01:05:54.308)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:06:01.486)
Yep. I love it. Yeah. I love that’s good. Yes.
David Campbell (01:06:12.6)
mean, it’s doable to come back from that obviously, but it’s not a good spot to be in. They’ve got to find a way to stay in the hunt here.
Terry Pluto (01:06:20.776)
Mm-hmm. Cause see Detroit’s doing this year with the guardians did last year bolted out in front of the pack and You could see the Tigers are building a really good team finally after all those years of losing and high picks So I’m with you. I don’t want to see them what they got three of Minnesota or four of Minnesota Okay, I don’t want to see them go two and five and that you know something like that no
David Campbell (01:06:41.666)
Three in Minnesota and then four at Detroit.
Terry Pluto (01:06:50.104)
You know, got to always come out of like four and three. mean, the season doesn’t end, but also you want to start building some momentum. The division is real. It’s good. They proved it last year. It was not a fluke. You don’t win Browns and playoffs series and everything else like the division did last year.
David Campbell (01:07:06.818)
Yeah, and I do wonder if we’re gonna see a couple moves here before the Detroit series. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:07:09.656)
I think so. I think so. mean, I just made two of them. Let’s see if they see if they do what I did.
David Campbell (01:07:14.604)
Alright, then after that Detroit series the Guardians are back home and they have a home stand against the Dodgers and the Angels so that’ll be fun
Terry Pluto (01:07:20.58)
boy. So in other words, the next four teams they play only the angels are no good. And the other ones are really good. I did not anticipate the twins bolting out like they did too. I did not see that coming. I thought I didn’t know the Tigers were they 31 16. I didn’t know that, but you could tell last year that they were good. I mean, the Tigers, Tigers are they’re coming. Yeah, they, are. And, it’s
David Campbell (01:07:45.048)
Good manager too.
Terry Pluto (01:07:50.072)
That was such a fun series I made to to cover that. I went up to Detroit for that, those games there, and they were just great games. I level in the Tigers and Tribe, Guardians are good. I was going to go back to their Tribe days, and maybe my soft spot for Detroit is because when I was a kid, and I wonder if anybody else out there listening did this, when you couldn’t, this is like the 60s or whatever.
You could get the Tigers and WJR out of Detroit, the great voice of the Great Lakes with Ernie Harwell, 760 AM. I don’t think they’re on that station anymore. And was like, you know, 1100 out of Cleveland. You could get that all over the Midwest. And as a kid, I would listen to those Tiger games, like when Cleveland wasn’t playing or whatever. and I got to be like that. The Tigers are sort of my second favorite team.
David Campbell (01:08:40.856)
Yeah, and was fun during the It was like old time baseball because a lot of the days it was day games. So a lot of day games that kind of remind you of the old the old days when they would play playoffs in the World Series during the day.
Terry Pluto (01:08:43.854)
Yeah. They, they can, yeah, they were, or one of them, those teams are you playing it, you know, on the West coast and you kind of late at night, you sneak your radio in. And I loved Al K line and norm cash, you know, those are two of my favorite tiger players. And, but again, it goes back to baseball on the radio on that. And this is the discussion I was having with, I think it was Tom Hamilton or, or Rosie, one or the other for all the changes in.
um, the way things are broadcast, baseball and the radio is still essentially the same. They got a lot more commercials in there. I’m still ball one. Gee, it’s a sunny day. The wind’s blowing out. I’ll hear kind of the storm clouds. Uh, I wonder if he’s going to blunt in the same. It’s the same. They do it the same way. They, know, TV, they got all these graphics and people on the sidelines and everything else. And, baseball, it’s, know, one guy telling you about the game and maybe the other guy comes in and says something. Maybe he doesn’t.
And I love the simplicity of that.
David Campbell (01:09:48.088)
Alright, I think that might do it for today’s podcast. Terry, anything else you wanted to mention before we wrap it up?
Terry Pluto (01:09:54.452)
No, we did Earl Weaver. We did the Detroit Tigers on the radio. What else do you want? You want to break us? Yeah, you want to break us slump, hit the ball over the wall.
David Campbell (01:09:58.478)
Yeah, we need a little we need Earl Weaver segment music, right? Hey, while we’re on baseball, we have gotten some really good emails so far from listeners about Tom Hamilton. As everybody knows, he’s going into the Hall of Fame the weekend of July 25, 26, 27. So we’re looking for any Tom Hamilton stories you have listening to him, meeting him, anything you want to share with us, send it along. We’ll try and maybe do some of those in the.
podcast as we head into the summer. So alright, I think we’re good, right Terry? Alright, we will catch you all next week. Have a great sports week and we will talk to you soon on Terry’s Talking.
Terry Pluto (01:10:31.236)
That is it.