CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss what the Cavs may be able to take away from their Eastern Conference adversaries to apply to their own game.
Takeaways:
The Pacers displayed incredible resilience in their Game 1 playoff victory over the New York Knicks.
Tyrese Halliburton’s clutch performances have continued throughout the playoffs and are lethal to opposing teams hopes.
The mental toughness of the Pacers sets them apart from other teams.
The Cavs need to learn from the Pacers’ execution and teamwork.
Evan Mobley must be more assertive in demanding the ball while becoming a true No. 2 on offense.
Coaching strategies play a crucial role in playoff success.
Donovan Mitchell’s leadership is essential for the Cavs’ growth.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Jimmy Watkins: Foreign.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we are coming to you after arguably one of the best playoff games we’ve seen all season. Obviously, the Indiana Pacers and the New York Knicks and at Madison Square Garden went head to head in game one. The Pacers were down eight with, I believe it was 35 seconds left in the contest. This is the third game this season where they’ve been down by at least seven and under the last minute in the playoffs and still put off a victory. The Bucks, the Cavs, and now the New York Knicks have become victims to the Pacers. End of game strategy. Guys, I don’t know where you guys are watching this, but it was rocking and rolling where I was at. I’m trying to figure out how you guys feel about this Pacers team. Trying to figure out how you guys are thinking about the victory, the game itself, and just getting to witness great basketball as a whole. Chris, let’s start with you.
Chris Fedor: I feel the same way about the Pacers that I have all along. These dudes are relentless, tough as nuts. Tyrese Halliburton is incredibly clutch. He has been his entire career. They just have dudes who just aren’t phased no matter what is thrown at them. There were so many different ways that they could have lost the game tonight against New York. There’s so many different reasons why they should have lost the game against New York. But for them to get this one on the road, msg, everything that surrounded this one, my goodness, it just speaks to their character. I think it speaks to their mental toughness. I think it speaks to the DNA that they have as a basketball team. I’m starting to get some flashbacks of the Dallas Mavericks from the era where they went up against the Miami Heat and nobody gave them a chance. And they just had tough dudes who didn’t care what anybody said about them. They made big plays down the stretch. Look, Indiana doesn’t have Dirk. Totally understand that. But it was a Rick Carlisle coach team that nobody gave a chance to, like every single level that they went, and yet they were the last team standing because they just had an internal belief and an internal toughness that simply couldn’t be matched. And, you know, I don’t think this means that the series is over by any means. New York did a lot of really, really good things. New York has some advantageous matchups that they continue to exploit, and Jalen Brunson is going to give them a chance to remain competitive. But my God, when you’re playing against the Pacers, there’s probably a thought of like, what else do we have to do against these guys?
Jimmy Watkins: And this one in particular gives you that kind of feeling. Because when Brunson goes out with five fouls early in the fourth quarter, it’s like pre scripted, right? Here we go. Pacers are going to make a run with Brunson on the bench and make it close. And then it’s going to get weird. And the Knicks extend the lead without Brunson take control of the game. OG Anunoby with some incredible offense during that stretch. It would make sense. They finally run out of magic and then Aaron Neesmith just becomes possessed.
Ethan Sands: Reggie Miller.
Jimmy Watkins: The spirit of Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, whatever. Like, to a certain. In the spirit of. I mean, the Pacers are amazing. I’ve never seen a team with more don’t quit in them than this team. I also have, like, how is Aaron Neesmith catching the ball clean? How is he coming around some of these screens? And there’s not a per. Like, you got to be going at a certain point, this dude’s making what, he makes six fourth quarter threes or something? Yeah, I’m going over the screen and hedging like, he’s just not shooting the ball. And he kept shooting the ball. I was a little perplexed by that. But this Pacers team is so fun. They defy logic. They defy logic in many ways. They are so impressive. I love watching these dudes play.
Chris Fedor: I mean, somebody in my mentions, as soon as the game ended, they’re like, how do they keep doing this? Like, why? Why can’t the Cavs do this?
Jimmy Watkins: That’s.
Chris Fedor: That’s literally what they said. They said, why can’t the Cavs do this? And the first thing that I thought of was, you know, not everybody is Rick Carlisle number one as good as Kenny Atkinson is. And he was coach of the year. He won every single coach of the year award that there was and there were multiple coach of the year awards. So not everybody is Rick Carlisle and Tyrese Halliburton. Like, at some point, just people are going to have to give him the kind of respect that he has earned. Like, there are few guys in the NBA that impact winning and bring a value to the game the way that Tyrese does. It’s the reason why, as you guys know, throughout the course of this podcast, I was talking about, do I put him top five in my MVP voting? It’s not that he’s A better player than Jalen Brunson. It’s not that he’s a better player than just in terms of talent than Donovan Mitchell and some of these other guys, right? But the impact that he has, the calmness that he plays with, the mistakes that he just doesn’t make. When you’re in a situation where it’s about execution, it’s a half court game, it’s about staying composed. There are very few point guards in the NBA that I’d rather have than that dude.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s fair in that in end of fourth quarter sequence when he hits another dagger and then does the Reggie Miller emote, the choke to the throw, but finds out that his foot was on the line. And then the commercial ends and the TV pans back to Tyrese Halliburton and he’s talking to one of his teammates and he’s like, just win the effing game because they’re now in overtime and they understand. Obviously Tyrese might not have been thinking about this at a time, but like that would have been an all time meme if New York had pulled that game out, right? Because now you’re like, oh, you got overzealous. You didn’t actually win the game and yet you’re emoting. But coming into this series, I heard and I saw a lot of different people saying, Tyrese Halliburton is going to use this emote as soon as possible. Game one was your answer. Folks, I want to get this back to the Cavs and turn this to the Cavs as much as we have throughout the year and especially with this podcast. But for me, I’m trying to figure out what areas that the Pacers are excelling at that the Cavs can implement. And for me, it’s a lot of mental stuff. It’s a lot of little things. And that’s what Kenny Atkinson, Kobe Altman, Donovan, Mitchell Masters, they were talking about it in the margins that they have to improve. And I haven’t seen a whole lot of slip ups from the Pacers. And we talked about it before the series started, Chris, about what we thought about this series, about the narratives, about the storylines, about how Indiana, if they can keep it close, they can make a game out of it. And also knowing that the Knicks aren’t the Boston Celtics. Right. Well, the Pacers might just be to a different echelon when it comes to finishing games, and I think that’s a testament to them. So I want to turn the question to you all. Do you think there is something that The Pacers are doing consistently other than just simply knocking down shots, because, as Jimmy mentioned, Aaron Neesmith was a maniac on a mission in that fourth quarter. But is there something that the Cavs can look at and be like, hey, with the roster we have, we can translate that to what we’re doing?
Chris Fedor: I mean, look, I think this is just like, one team is capable of putting their nuts on the table, and the other team just is not. Right. Like, I think there’s a level of readiness that the Pacers have for playoff basketball and everything that it entails. And if you want to talk about the culture that they have there, if you want to talk about the coaching that they have there, if you just want to talk about the makeup of the roster and their players, that’s fine, too. But, like, they don’t. They don’t have a tendency to beat themselves. You have to beat them. And I just think, like, for example, you know, Donovan Mitchell, the big thing throughout the course of the year was, you know, let’s take a step back, let’s empower my teammates, let’s elevate those guys and look like this is a nuanced conversation, right? Because Evan Mobley was hobbled, you know, DeAndre Hunter wasn’t himself, and obviously Darius Garland was a different version of the player that he was during the regular season. So I think there was part of Donovan that recognized that and said, I’ve got to take more on. I’ve got to carry more of this burden. But I also think there’s something to this idea of, look, when things get difficult for the Indiana Pacers, like, they stay true to themselves. It’s not just like, one guy playing hero ball, right? Like, yeah, Aaron Neesmith was scorching hot, but there was also Pascal Siakam exploiting mismatches down the stretch. They were running their offense. You know what I mean? Like, it just wasn’t one guy who said to himself, all right, I’m going to do everything all by myself. Like, they trusted the system. They trusted their teammates. There was a level of that, to me, is what mental toughness is. That, to me, is what poises. Like when things are hard and you’re hit with adversity, can you stay true to yourself? And the answer for the Cavs during the second round series against the Pacers was no. They didn’t look anything like the team from the regular season. The ball wasn’t moving around. They weren’t sharing it within a possession. Not a lot of guys were getting involved in the actions. And part of that is the Pacers taking them out of their comfort zone. And they deserve a lot of credit for the physicality that they played with. But the Cavs lost themselves in the series against the Pacers. I guess the Pacers broke them is the way that I would put it. And that’s the thing that stands out. And it doesn’t mean that every single time that the Pacers are in an adverse situation, they’re going to come through. These dudes are huge, human, but more times than not, they stay true to themselves and they just, like one guy doesn’t take it upon himself to try and do everything on his own. And for all of the things that we praise Donovan for during the regular season, for Evan Mobley to go an entire playoff run and not take more than 13 shots in any single game, like, that was a variation of who they were. That was a variation of who they had become and why they won 64 games and why they were the number one seed in the Eastern Conference. So that, to me, is something that stands out. And the other thing is, like, Evan, go demand the ball. Be more assertive. Pascal Siakam, like, worked his ass off to get in position in the post and, like, demanded that his teammates got him the ball to kind of help spark the rally, right? Aaron Neesmith worked around screens relentlessly to try and get the ball so that he could take a shot. So I just think, you know, when you look at the Pacers, top to bottom, there’s a level of readiness for, like, everything that the playoffs entail, including. Siakam understands how to deal with those moments in a way that Evan Mobley does not. Tyrese Halliburton understands how to keep a team together and make it operate the way that it needs to in a way that Darius Garland does not. And I don’t know how you change that. I think that’s something that Kobe Altman was trying to speak to during his press conference. I think it’s something that Donovan Mitchell wanted to say but didn’t want to say and couldn’t say, so he wanted us to say it instead. Donovan Mitchell is on a specific timeline, and the other players, the other most important players on this team, are not on that same timeline. You know, for the Pacers, it seems like everybody’s ready all at the same time. And I don’t know how the Cavs fixed that in one off season.
Jimmy Watkins: So I think Kobe Altman might say that having Darius not be healthy in these games would contribute to the lack of readiness that the Cavs had because there’s a Darius part of this. There’s a Donovan part of this. Darius Garland was fringe clutch player of the year candidate because the Cavs were putting the ball in his hands. Because in part, the Cavs offense looks more like the Cavs offense when the ball is in Darius Garland’s hands than it does when the ball is in Donovan Mitchell’s hands. And context, like Chris said, there’s once we got to the playoffs, guys were injured and his read on the situation, he gave a good answer about how he needs to read the context around him as the superstar, head of the snake type guy. And his read on the situation was, I need to go right now. I think that that’s kind of a immature read. Tyrese Halliburton, they’re different kind of players, Donovan and Tyrese, but Tyrese is the kind of superstar that makes everyone around him look calmer. In those moments, it feels like Tyrese is operating. Even though he ends up hitting a lot of these big time shots. Tyrese at the end of games is often operating under the guise of, okay, I’m going to get the best shot available, whereas Donovan is operating under the guise of, I’m going to get this bucket for us. And again, you can say that that Tyrese has more playoff seasoning around him and, you know, because of last year’s conference finals run, has more trust in the guys around him. And again, part of the reason Tyrese operates this way is because he can’t do some of the things that Donovan does as an individual shock creator for himself. So that part is very nuanced as well. But like in these conversations, particularly as it pertains to this year because of Darius’s injury, it’s more of a Donovan conversation than it is a Darius conversation. The way that the Cavs like going forward, it’s more important that Darius has more to prove in the playoffs. But for what happened throughout that Pacer series, Donovan was healthier. The Cavs were giving him the ball more. And so by default, because he had more reps on the ball, he’s going to get more of that blame. I think that’s just how it works. And like when Evan Mobley. Yes. Needs to take more ownership of the. I mean, we’ve broken record at this point. Evan Mobley needs to take more ownership of the offense. Kenny Atkinson needs to implement more opportunities for him at the end of these games. At a certain point, this is what I’m saying, Tyrese is like this classic point guard, finger on the pulse of everything. That’s happening around him. I know, like, yes, Pascal Siakam’s working his tail to get these shots, but Tyrese recognizes that and is giving him the ball. Donovan Mitchell needs to understand that Evan Mobley is not the outward clap, clap, clap, give me the ball guy and give it to him anyways is what I would argue. Is what I would argue. I would also just say that the two biggest Pacers contributors, because we’ve had the conversation and I did. I’ve now done the research. The two biggest Pacers clutch killers in this game were Tyrese Haliburton and Aaron Neesmith. Tyrese Haliburton coming in Tonight had played 25 career playoff games. Aaron Neesmith coming into tonight had played, I believe, 47 playoff games, but 22 of those were in Boston where he was a bit player. He played 97 total minutes in those 22 playoff games. I’m saying this to say sometimes it’s just in you or it’s not like Aaron Neesmith got to Indiana. Boom, he’s a guy. Tyrese Haliburton made it to the playoffs. Boom, he’s a guy. Again, I’m not saying experience can’t help mold you into some of these, but like a lot of times you just have it or you don’t.
Ethan Sands: What you both are saying is extremely valid. First and foremost. And we talked a little bit about the hero ball antics of Donovan Mitchell, whether he should or should not do that. And for me, just watching the game and since we’re recapping a little bit, the last possession for the New York Knicks felt a lot like that, right? Jalen Brunson was clutch player of the year. Jalen Brunson has been our guy in the fourth quarter, brings up the ball immediately, tries to go into a step back three when he’s better guarded than he has been probably all playoffs, right? It looked for us. And then offensive rebound kick out Karl Anthony Towns probably four or five steps further than he would want to be than the three point line, great three point shooter in his career, but I think that that’s a shot that he felt forced as well. Right? Especially in the Jalen Brunson situation. And this is a testament not only to what the Indiana Pacers are doing, but it’s not just Donovan Mitchell and the Cavs that are trying to figure this out. Trying to figure out how they can create other options, especially like how the Pacers are doing it. And I think it’s a great blueprint that Rick Carlisle has done, especially when we talk about Kenny Atkinson. And I’m going to keep using maybe we made T shirts. Jimmy’s phrase Kumbaya Kenny. And I think Kenny went away from that in the playoffs. Right? He said the playoffs just call for a smaller rotation. Well, that’s not what got you there. That’s not the mentality, the depth chart that you’ve been preaching the entire season. Right. So why would that change? Rick Carlisle is showing you that it doesn’t have to. And Tom Thibodeau and his guys didn’t look gassed from playing the Indiana Pacers. Maybe if you go to the locker room they may might have oxygen tanks and IVs in them right now. So that might be different, but it’s a different element to what the Cavs were able to do well this season, what they can improve on and all these things. I do have one last question, but it feels like Jimmy has something he wants to ask real quick.
Jimmy Watkins: The Kenny rotation, Pete, I mean the reason why Kenny went away from the rotation because guys stopped. Not proven that they could get there. That’s a small thing, the bigger picture thing to what you’re saying though, Ethan, when you create this, like I said, I said this during preseason, it’s your clipboard. It’s my clipboard. Is there a clipboard? Everyone, this is everybody’s offense. It’s a player run team. It’s harder to take back the reins. It’s harder to take back the reins and sometimes you need to implement yourself as a coach in those situations, particularly when the offense is getting outside of itself, you’re losing your identity. The right touch from a coach can nudge you back into the proper lane. And the Cavs were just got so used to being a self sustaining machine that, that I think it got harder for Kenny to, to figure out when and how to interrupt that.
Ethan Sands: Also I, I just saw this stat posted by NBA so I’m going to read it for our listeners and viewers. Aaron Neith’s six threes in the fourth quarter was the most ever by any player in the playoffs since the 1998 playoffs. In play by play era, Niecemith set a franchise record in made threes, eight of them for the Pacers in the playoff game. So obviously he was just beside himself. Reggie Miller esque, but even better, right?
Chris Fedor: They kept looking for him, they kept getting him the ball.
Ethan Sands: You feed the hot hand Chris, right? And I think sometimes the Cavs got away from that. And not to make that whole comparison, but when Max Struz had the hot hand in the first quarter, you went away from him. When Evan Mobley had the hot hand, they would go away from him. I think that’s another thing that the Cavs can take and look for. I did want to mention as we talked about the disparity between playoff experience and Jimmy has mentioned this on multiple occasions, but Rick Carlisle became the 11th most winningest coach in playoff history tonight, tying George, Carl and Lenny Wilkins. The top 10 of this list, 1 through 10 Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Gregg Popovich, Doc Rivers, Eric Spoelstra, Steve Kerr, Larry Brown, Red Auerbach, Jerry Sloan and KC Jones. All of these coaches have at least 80 playoff wins. Kenny Atkinson has six playoff wins in 14 playoff games total. So there’s an experience thing there that Kenny Atkinson is learning as well and will continue to do so, especially as the Cavs continue to try and play through the playoffs but also have success. And we talked about the importance of that and also the looming contract that now again is overarching over this entire team. With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and go on top of Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. If you want these spicy hot takes directly to your phone on a daily basis, this is where you get them. And for tomorrow’s hey Chris episode, this is where you send in your questions. If you want to hear us talk about a particular topic that you are passionate about. So the only place to be do this. The only way to do this is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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