CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins focus on the development prospects of younger players like Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr., and the implications of the salary cap on roster decisions.
Takeaways:
Player development for Craig Porter Jr. and Jaylon Tyson is crucial for the team’s future.
The Cavs need to manage their salary cap effectively to maintain competitiveness.
Isaac Okoro’s contract may need to be moved to create roster flexibility.
The team must find a balance between continuity and necessary changes.
The Cavs’ playoff exit highlights the need for strategic adjustments.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me, of course, you know ‘em, you love ‘em. Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins, and we have another rendition of ‘Hey, Chris’ for today’s episode. Chris and Jimmy are joining me after the Minnesota Timberwolves fell yet again to the Oklahoma City Thunder. We’re not going to talk about this game because as me and Chris kind of previewed the Eastern Conference finals and the Western Conference finals, it was apparent to both of us that the Thunder were going to be able to utilize that defense that has been so potent throughout the regular season to to not only get Anthony Edwards off the ball, but when he does have the ball in his hands, make his life hell. After just taking 13 shots in game one, he ended up taking over 20 in game two, knowing that he needed to be more of a menace on that end of the floor for the Minnesota Timberwolves to pull out with a victory, but still wasn’t enough. So we’re going to turn this back over to the Cavs, as you guys know and love. So today’s first question of the podcast will be Lloyd in Mayfield Heights. He says, why don’t the Cavs utilize their bigs, Jared Allen in more of their offense, run the offense through the elbow and get offense flowing? Maybe a question that could also be posed to the Minnesota Timberwolves and Julius Randle, as we saw in Game 2, and Anthony Edwards getting into the paint to create more offense that way. What do you guys think? Is it just a numbers game or do you think that Jared Allen isn’t that good of an offensive player to be a hub in that kind of capacity?
Chris Fedor: I just think when you come to like NBA conversation, you have to understand that, that certain guys have certain roles and certain guys have certain strengths. And I would agree that the Cavs should have used Evan Mobley more, especially in the series against Indiana, for him to have a usage rating that was much lower than what it was during the regular season. I thought that was a failure by organization. I thought that was a failure by Donovan Mitchell. I thought that was a failure by Kenny Atkinson. But Evan Mobley and Jared Allen are different. Using Evan Mobley as an offensive hub, you feel like that’s a pathway to success. You feel like that’s a pathway to good things happening. Maybe some consistency. I think there were times that the Cavs used Jarrett in a two man game with Max Stru or a two man game with Darius Garland, but Jarrett’s strength on the offensive end of the floor is his screen setting. He is one of the best screen setters and one of the best rollers in the NBA and he can finish around the rim with both hands. He shoots a high percentage. He’s very, very efficient. But he’s not the kind of guy that you’re going to run offense through consistently and expect good things to happen because he’s just not that kind of player. That doesn’t maximize his skill set, that doesn’t put him in a position to be consistently successful. Like there are different areas of his game where he has certainly expanded and he’s gotten better. He’s got that little mid range jumper that he’s worked on over the last couple of years. He’s become a better passer I think over the last couple of years as well, but still like running offense through him and making him a high usage guy. I just don’t know how that’s going to help the Cavs. Yeah, I mean, I think offense was a problem at various points against Indiana for sure, but there were eight teams that made it to the conference semifinals and the Cavs were last in defense, last of those eight teams in that series against Indy. So they just couldn’t find answers, consistent answers on the defensive end of the floor. I don’t know that, you know, their offense needs an overhaul like that when it comes to Jarrett and his own limitations on the offensive end.
Jimmy Watkins: I would say this though, about that. I think we disagreed with Kenny on this. As the games were playing out, Kenny did say on multiple occasions that their offense let them down in that series. And I do think that it’s an issue when you are banking on the league’s best offense to be the league’s best offense and it ends up looking like, like the 20th best offense from the regular season. Numbers which are, which are not super fair to apply to the playoffs because we all know that pace and scoring goes down in the playoffs. But the fact of the matter is the CAVs were not a 1, 116 or whatever, 112 offensive rating team in the regular season. They looked different. They got, you know, they got outside of their identity. And I think what Kenny was saying in some of those instances is like one of the best ways to slow down the Pacers is to score, make them take the ball out of the hoop. We talked about that as the, as the games were unfolding. So I see it from that perspective. I agree that it doesn’t need to be overhauled. It just Needs to. It needs to be run the way it was run when you were playing. Well, that sounds like a simple adjust. I mean, that’s a focus. These are all these things we talk about. It’s a focus, maturity, stem, the tide kind of thing. Don’t get outside of yourself when you get pushed out of your comfort zone. Jared Allen. Here’s what I’ll say. Jared Allen’s usage looks different. Like, you can’t measure Jared Allen in offensive involvement with your typical, like, field goal attempts, free throw attempts, turnover. Like Jared Allen usage looks like get game with Max Struse. Throw it to Jared, go get it. He’ll pitch it back to you. Maybe, I mean, maybe you want to say, like in these moments where Donovan was going so ISO heavy, maybe there’s more opportunities, you know, to get defenders chasing him by getting him off the ball and having him come get it from Jarrett, but that’s kind of just reshuffling the deck. At the end of the day, you’re still running pick and roll with Donovan, Mitchell and Jared Allen, which is. You’re just repackaging it a little bit. So you guys have heard me. I, you know that I am team feed Evan Mobley. I was team feed Evan Mobley throughout the Pacers series, especially when Thomas Bryant, Pascal Siakam and Obi Toppin are on the floor. You guys don’t need to hear me talk about that again. But yeah, it’s a structural issue, execution issue, not a we need to, we need to reinvent the wheel issue here. I’m also interested in the second part of, of Lloyd’s question here about why JB got so much flak during the playoff runs, was going to get there just now and Kenny, and Kenny didn’t. To me, I would just say that every new thing, whether it’s a new coach, new superstar, new friend, whatever, there’s always a honeymoon phase, and Kenny’s lasted longer than most. I can promise you next year, every time Evan Mobley shoots fewer than 15 shots or whatever in a game, or if he goes a fourth quarter without getting enough touches, we’ll be talking about Kenny. I promise, the fans will be talking about Kenny. This is the life cycle of coaches. You get tired of the ones that are there for a while when they don’t win at the highest level and you get the new guy in, the new guy makes changes, you like the changes. Then as time goes by, the new guy has flaws to nobody’s freaking perfect. And then you pick apart that guy. It’s a never ending Cycle.
Chris Fedor: Here’s the other thing. I think Kenny would say that, you know, he didn’t have the best series against Indiana and there are things that he regrets. And I know sources tell me that Kenny has been making the film room his second home already this offseason. You know, trying to rewatch that series against Indiana, seeing where he came up short, seeing what kinds of things he could have done better, seeing what kinds of things he should implement moving forward for this team. And it’s not just, you know, what happened in the Indiana series is going to inform that thinking and make his decisions based on those things. But it was clear that, that he felt like he wasn’t at his best in that series and that’s why he’s rewatching it over and over and over again. But like, he was also named coach of the year. Okay, he was named coach of the year from the media and broadcasters and his peers. All of the coaches around the NBA named him coach of the Year. So there’s a level of respect, there’s a level of benefit of the doubt that he has earned. And the question is, you know, how long is that going to last if he has the same kind of slip ups next year in the playoffs, if he shows some limitations as an X’s and O’s tactician, or he gets outmaneuvered by another playoff chess master the way that he did against Rick Carl? Of course, of course we’re going to be critical of that. Of course we’re going to point out those kinds of things. But like with JP Bickerstaff, it happened in the Knicks series, it happened in the Orlando series, it happened in the Boston series. And like there were a lot of things that you could see throughout the course of the regular season. Whether it was blowing fourth quarter leads, whether it was not coming out ready in the third quarter, whether it was in game adjustments that just came too slow. Like nobody saw things from Kenny during the regular season that were glaring problems. From a tactical stamp with J.B. bickerstaff, you saw those things and then they became more apparent when you got into the playoffs. So yeah, I think part of it’s the honeymoon phase, but I also think part of it is the recognition that Kenny got throughout the course of the regular season as the best coach in the NBA. You don’t just ignore that or you don’t just push that aside because he had a bad playoff series against one of the best playoff coaches in the NBA.
Ethan Sands: And we talked a lot about like getting fooled maybe by the Miami Heat series. And how good the Cavs looked in that series. I think it also helped Kenny a little bit for his narrative, right? Like oh, you got past the great Erik Spoelstra, right? Like who has a lot of playoff experience. And we’re like, oh well, this is Rick Carlisle. He doesn’t have as many wins as Eric Spoelstra in the playoffs, but he still is one of the top winning coaches, as I mentioned in yesterday’s podcast, especially after their win in Game 1 over the Knicks, right? So it gave the perception like, oh, maybe Kenny’s built for this too. Maybe he’s built for taking down playoff experience, led coaches that have been in these situations. And then Rick Carlisle kind of just tore that narrative to stress because he out coached him. And that’s plain and simple. And I think there’s a lot of different things we can look at and we’re not going to go back and relive this series, right? But to continue to read Lloyd from Mayfield Heights question he said, additionally, why was the media so hard on JB for his playoff losses but so lenient on Kenny? He was out coached by Rick Carlisle and his unwillingness to take advantage of the Cavs favorable matchup versus the Pacers bigs once it became obvious that Ty was ineffective and Darius was injured. So I want to go back to the Jarrett Allen point that Lloyd was making at the beginning of his question just for a second, because we talked about how the Cavs were utilizing their offense a lot of different ways throughout the regular season. But to me the biggest growth area was getting Jarrett Allen out of the dunker spot and using him as a quote unquote hub and at the elbow at the free throw line and initiating offense that way, right? Allowing him to make decisions, getting the ball out of Donovan Mitchell’s hands, getting the ball out of Darius Garland’s hand and having the movement around him kind of alter the decisions that he was going to be able to make. He grew as a passer. Evan Mobley was also a guy that did this as well. Do you think that one going away and I think this is kind of going hand in hand with some of the stuff that we’ve talked about in the past. But this all goes hand in hand with Kenny Atkinson should have taken the ball out of Donovan Mitchell’s hand a little bit more. Donovan Mitchell should have allowed himself to be more free flowing, allow the offense to get out of his hands and not play as much hero ball. But do you think that Jarrett Allen kind of went away from himself because We’ve talked about this after games 4 and 5. It felt like he just looked lost after a particular moment in that series, especially in Game 5 in Cleveland and after being blocked by Miles Turner, it just looked like even his defense, like, vanished by the wayside. And he was caught looking around, not doing things when it comes to switching on the perimeter with Tyrese Halliburton, all these things. For me, it’s another moment thing for Jared Allen. And obviously he’s going to be remembered for his infamous quote from years past of the lights were too bright. And it continues to show in these playoff atmospheres. Obviously Miami, he was great against Bam Adebayo, he was great against Khalil Ware. But we have also said great against.
Chris Fedor: Orlando last year, too.
Ethan Sands: He was before he got injured.
Jimmy Watkins: He was good at the start of the series also, by the way, he was good at the start of the series.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, first three games he was good.
Chris Fedor: I would also say this, like, I don’t know, like, when you’re talking about small sample sizes and you’re talking about a short series, I don’t know how much you put too much into these certain kinds of on off numbers and whatnot. Because some of that is going to be predicated on who are you sharing the floor with and are you a beneficiary of some of those things. But of all of the players in the series for the Cavs, like, nobody had a better on off differential than Jared Allen. Nobody. Not Donovan Mitchell, not Darius Garland, not DeAndre Hunter, not Evan Mobley. They were a better team statistically, pretty significantly with Jared on the floor as opposed to off. Okay, so, like, there were things that he didn’t do well enough in the series against Indiana. There’s no doubt about that. There are areas where he needs to refine his game and he needs to get better. And I think he has a tendency to kind of like, disengage and become aloof when things aren’t going as well as maybe he wants them to go, or if he’s not as involved in things as he would like to be. We’ve seen that. We’ve seen that throughout the course of the regular season. We’ve seen that throughout the course of some playoff games. And it felt like that in the final two games against Indy. And he was the first person to admit it. He talked about it during his exit interview when he was asked to assess his performance against the Pacers in the second round series. He said, not good enough. I wasn’t good enough. And he wasn’t especially in the final two games, you know, game four, like, you basically just throw that one out. Like, nobody played well in that game. The Cavs were not ready to play that game. It looked like they were like me spending their off time on the golf course instead of preparing for the Indiana Pacers. That’s what I did. Played two rounds of golf in Indy because the weather was beautiful and I wanted to take advantage of it. And they have some good golf courses in Indy. So, like, it looked like that team going into that game was just on a completely different planet and they just weren’t there mentally. But, like, even Game five, you know, Jarrett simply was not engaged enough. He wasn’t good enough, he wasn’t assertive enough. He didn’t bring the kind of effort and intensity and energy. And it’s more noticeable when it doesn’t happen for Jarrett because, like, he can’t make up for those things in other ways. Like, if Donovan’s a little bit disengaged on the defensive end of the floor, if he’s giving up shots, it’s like, all right, cool, I’ll go back at the other end and I’ll just like pull up from three and I’ll make it so it’s not as noticeable. But when Jarrett, so much of what he does or what he’s supposed to do for this team is set the tone defensively, be the rim protector, defensively, anchor the paint, you know, hustle plays 50, 50 balls, battle under the paint, you know, set menacing screens to free up your teammates on the other end of the floor. If he’s just not doing those kinds of things at a high level, it’s hard to justify playing time because he’s not going to do, like, other things that stand out and give him huge handful of value.
Ethan Sands: The only thing I’m going to to the on off court stat that you said, and I think that’s extremely valid, lean into that, right? Like, I think that was what we knew coming into the series. It could go one of two ways. And Kenny Atkinson mentioned this, like, we have two bigs. The Pacers are going to have to guard, are too big, but they’re also going to have to guard on the perimeter. If he’s having success, as we mentioned, in the first three games of that series, lean into Jared Allen, figure out what he’s able or capable and comfortable with doing to exploit the defense of the Indiana Pacers, especially Myles Turner, Pascal Siakam, who can body up and are strong and all those things and have great basketball iq. But they Simply could not match up with Jarrett when he was rim running, when he was being aggressive offense and all these things. And as Jimmy has said in the past, he’s a product of his environment and he only has so much control of getting the ball in his hands and all those things. But when he gets the ball and he’s being productive, as we saw in game two, without some of those key players next to him, the defensive effort was to a different level, except for the last minute of the game. And I can’t even remember if he was in the game for that last stretch. Right. So I think it’s important to note all of this context that is important surrounding Jarrett. As we know, he’s still a part of this core four, and we still have to wait and see what the Cavs decide to do with him going into this offseason. But, Jimmy, I know you got something for us.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I think the Cavs kind of did that when Jarrett was playing. Well, they tried. You know, he played like 31, 31, 38 minutes. Maybe not in that exact order, but like those totals in the first three games, I mean, he’s involved in every play in some way. You know, he’s going to be the screen series now you want. Maybe you want to feed. I think the one. One of the things that Ethan said that’s valid. Maybe you want to feed him a little bit more. Look for him a little bit more. And it can’t hurt, especially when you have one dude healthy that can dribble the ball at times to throw Jarrett the ball at the elbow and say, hey, we’re going to run some split action over here. Hey, we’re going to have a bunch of guys that can’t hurt.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: But again, I think it’s hard for Kenny to argue with Donovan going to the rim the way he is when for long stretches of that series that was working too.
Ethan Sands: I don’t think you can disagree with that. Yes. Did he have to take 30 shots to get there? Sure. But I think free throw attempts to.
Jimmy Watkins: The free throw attempts are like. Donovan’s shooting numbers weren’t great, but his. Some of these games, the true shooting really evened out because of the free throws. One more thing about Jarrett, this whole idea, like he needs to be involved, like to get the best engagement that is most big men.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: So to slam Jared Allen when it. When it’s not there. Chris made a really good point about whether Donovan’s hustling or not. It’s not the first thing you notice about him when It’s Jarrett. It is always the first thing you notice about him, whether he’s doing it or not. And again that like that’s just most big men because it’s human nature and it’s hard to argue against human issue. You don’t have to like it. And you could say try to summon more of that energy on your own. But that’s easier said than done.
Ethan Sands: I want to get into a next question from our subtexters, this one coming from Anu from San Francisco who says what are the prospects for the player development of Craig Porter Jr. And Jaylon Tyson from a salary cap standpoint? Do these players provide a safety net if Sam Merrow and Ty Jerome leave so the Cavs do not overpay? Are both players more likely rotational players next year or trade pieces? I think this is a great question from Anu and he’s always setting in his thoughtful analysis. I think Jalen Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. Are the two players that you can look to that are not necessarily in the rotation. But next year you could be like, hey, if these guys are gone, is Jaylon Tyson getting their minutes? Hey, is Craig Porter Jr. Ready to be a backup point guard? Right. Especially if Ty Jerome isn’t on the roster. For me, Chris, we’ve had this conversation since my first year on the beat. I’m a Good Preg Porter Jr. Stan, when it comes to his development and I think this last year was kind of more so a rookie season than his rookie season was because he got a lot more minutes in his rookie season with Darius Garland being injured due to the fractured jaw and the opportunities he got in late game situations. This year was more like, all right, well we’re going to throw you out there and see what you can handle. So going back to Anew’s question, do you guys think that Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. First and foremost are ready to get rotation type minutes for this Cavs team? Especially if Ty Jerome and Samuel aren’t on this roster and we’ll get to that point in a little bit.
Chris Fedor: No, no I don’t. Not for a team that has championship aspirations and that’s what this team does. I just haven’t seen enough from from either guy. And I think the challenge for Jaylon Tyson is so many of the things that he has done well throughout his basketball life are not going to be what he’s asked to do for this iteration of the team. He’s not going to be a high usage scorer. He’s not going to be a secondary playmaker. He’s going to have to fill in the gaps, he’s going to have to do these little things. He’s going to have to make his name on the defensive end of the floor. He’s going to have to knock down, spot up three pointers and he’s going to have to quicken his release. And like, some of these things that like, made him the guy that he was at Calvary, that made him the 20th overall pick. That’s not what the Cavs are going to need from him. That’s not what the Cavs are going to ask of him. And then Craig Porter Jr. Like, look, this front office likes Craig and there’s a reason for it and they do believe that eventually he can be a backup caliber point guard in the NBA. But there is nobody that should feel comfortable with Ty Jerome potentially walking because Craig Porter Jr. S on this roster. I mean, Ty Jerome’s either the sixth or seventh man, depending on how you view DeAndre Hunter. Ty Jerome was third in sixth man of the year voting. Okay, like, you’re not replacing that level of production, that level of consistency, that level of stability, that level of impact with Craig Porter. It’s just not happening, not this coming year. And you’re also not replacing all of those things that Ty brings to the table with a minimum salary player that you can go out in free agency and look for. So like, the Cavs need Ty Jerome back. They do. And they don’t have the means to replace him. Not internally and not externally. So it’s really, really important, I think, for the Cavs to try and find some kind of contract that, that they’re comfortable with, that. That Ty is also going to want to take on. Just because the level of his, know how, the level of his ability to run a team, the level of his shooting, his sh. All of those things are just at a higher level than somebody like Craig Porter Jr.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m not saying it would have gone awesome, but I would be interested to see how Ty Jerome would have looked in a playoff sitting against the team other than the Pacers. I mean, we saw him against Miami, but like, especially with Darius out there, like, he’s just not supposed to be going against a new Smith man.
Chris Fedor: That’s.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s never the plan. That’s never the plan. Or Andrew Nemhard for that for that matter. But it’s just like you can rightly criticize Tyrone for not making shots and then continuing to shoot them against Indiana. That’s how I’ll say that we’ve been saying about the Cavs as a whole. And I think it’s the 82 games, like, don’t matter next year, but you still got to get through them. And Ty Jerome is really good at that. We’ve seen that. And I do like this was his first playoffs. There is opportunity for growth there for him, even if he’s not, you know, the bucket that he was in the regular season. I think he can take this and learn from it. Okay, if I’m not playing well in that regard, what else can I do? He kind of lost himself out there. He was hunting his, he was hunting his rhythm and it’s like, dude, we’re in a playoff series. Figure out something else to do. So there’s possibilities he ships more into playmaker mode. It could happen. That could happen for him. Here’s what I’ll say about Jaylen Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. I agree with Chris. They’re not ready, but they are important players.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: To the future of this franchise. This is the Jaylen Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. Are like the Cav version of what Denver is trying to do with your Christian Browns, with your Peyton Watson, with your Julian Strothers. Those kind of guys, they’re, you know, the second apron. Reality is you’re going to lose some rotation guys along the way over the course of a, of a couple year run here. And when that happens, you want those guys to be ready to fill those shoes in some regard. Start them in the regular season, see how they look. And we, we just found out with Denver, Christian Brown, that’s a hit. He was ready for playoff basketball faster than I think we all expected. Peyton Watson, we’re still waiting on Julian Strother had a moment in that OKC Denver series, but he wasn’t ready for Game 7. I would say that all three of those guys are a cut above Jalen and Craig in terms of seasoning. Forget draft pedigree. You know, Jalen was drafted higher than Watson and Strother, I believe. I’m not sure about Brown, but they’re just older, they’ve been around more, they’ve got more opportunities. So, like, you’re not going to be able to, you know, have those guys first year in a rotation on a regular basis. They’re ready for the playoffs. That’s not how it works. The other thing, you gotta make shots. I mean, Jaylon Tyson had came out of college, I think, shooting 37% from 3. But to Chris’s point, that pick kind of raised an eyebrow for me last year because the kind of stuff that he did in college is not what the Cavs are going to ask him to do. So that’s a big change for him and he’s trying to make that change with limited live reps in games. That’s super challenging. Craig Porter Jr. Even in college, I think the best he ever shot was like 36% his last year at Wichita State, there were a lot of calls for Craig Porter Jr. To get more minutes in the Pacer series from fans. And we even had some people were talking about in the media room and I’m just like, okay, he’ll dribble the ball up the court and then what will he do? And then what will he do? Okay, like he had to bring something else TABLE. He’s undersized, he’s an unproven shooter. It’s a lot for a young player to process the playoffs. I just like, I just don’t think either of those guys, I like parts of both of their game. I actually think they’re both, given their circumstance, doing a good job of when they do get opportunities, filling different gaps than they were used to filling as college players and showing the coaches, you know, I can do whatever you need me to do. I’m just here to help the team any way I can. Yeah, but we’re a long way from both of those guys being playoff rotation guys.
Chris Fedor: I think the other value that they bring to this team is that this is a bloated salary cap situation. There are three teams that are projected to be second apron teams in the NBA this coming year. Boston, Phoenix and Cleveland. Right. So if you have so many of these high priced guys that take up so much of your salary cap space, you have to round out the roster with these quote unquote gems or these team friendly contracts. And the thing that the Cavs have when it comes to Jaylon Tyson is control, control of him on a team friendly deal for a number of years. And that helps you. And if he can become a rotation player two years from now, three years from now, and you have that kind of guy who is like the 8th or 9th guy in your rotation making that kind of money, then all of a sudden like the valuation is right. And with Craig Porter Jr. Like yeah, it’s a third point guard, essentially, maybe a fourth point guard, however you view him and his salary number is equivalent to that, to that kind of player, his experience and his know how is probably better than drafting, you know, somebody with a 38th overall pick or something like that to groom into that kind of player. The 50th overall pick to groom into that kind of player. So, like, he’s a little bit further ahead on the developmental curve and he’s got the kind of contract that is probably fitting for somebody of his skill set and somebody of his. Whatever his role is going to be for this team.
Ethan Sands: So, Chris, I know you wrote about this for the website today, and obviously we’re having this conversation around Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. And Anu asked basically if they could be kind of like sweeteners in a trade package, if that is a way to keep Sam Merrill and Ty Jerome on this roster. So I wanted to ask you on the podcast, do you think the Cavs can keep Ty Jerome and Sam Merrow, and do you feel like the Cavs would have to make roster moves to maintain that look of their team?
Chris Fedor: I just think it kind of depends on what the marketplace says. Do I think they can keep both of them? Yes. Do I think they’re motivated to keep both of them? Yes. Do I think that could lead to them making quote, unquote, salary dump moves? Yes. I think there are so many different options on the table for the Cavs, and I think one of them that not to say that they’re desperate to do, but one thing that they would prefer to do is find a taker for Isaac Okoro’s contract. Because we were just talking about like the role that somebody has in an organization and what the contract is. Isaac Okoro plays 19 minutes a game and he can’t consistently get on the floor in the playoffs. And this is a team that has championship aspirations. This is a team that has to look at playoff like things like who’s going to play in the playoffs for us, who’s going to be in the eight, nine man playoff rotation and what is that guy’s salary? So Isaac Koro is going to get 19 minutes in the regular season and then be an afterthought in the playoffs. At 11, $12 million, this team can’t afford that. They can’t. Not when they’re paying Donovan Mitchell what they are and Jared Allen and Evan Mobley and Darius Garland. Isaac Okoro’s role does not match his number. Isaac Okoro’s importance to this organization does not match his number. So I do think they have to look at the possibility of moving Isaac and finding a team that would be willing to take him. Now that gets complicated. Right. Because if that’s looked at by another team around the NBA as a quote, unquote, salary dump, they’re going to say attach something to him attach Jaylon Tyson to him, a young player on a team friendly rookie scale contract that has some upside, that has some pedigree as a first round pick or a team is going to say, all right, attach multiple second round picks to Isaac Okoro. Attach an eighth grader to Isaac Okoro like the next available pick that you can actually trade because of all of the stuff that happened with Donovan Mitchell in acquiring him from Utah. So I don’t think it’s going to be like that simplistic for the Cavs to shed Isaac’s salary, but I do think there’s motivation to do it and I think the other person that comes to mind and I’ve had multiple people around the NBA bring him up to me over the last 48 hours, Steen Wade. I love Dean, a mayor of Dean Wade Island. I think his impact, I think it’s felt on this team. He starts sometimes, he comes off the bench. He’s very versatile. His defensive numbers are really, really good. But when you get into a situation like the Cavs are, you have to make decisions and sometimes subtractions that are going to be painful to make everything work with this new cba with the salary cap limitations that you have with these restrictions that come with being a luxury tax and a second apron team. And maybe this doesn’t happen in the off season, right? Maybe it happens during the season, maybe it happens around the trade deadline. But I think the two quote unquote expendable rotation players that the Cavs have are Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro. And I think those are moves that the Cavs will at the very least consider making. I don’t think like they have to make them to bring back Sam Merrill and Ty Jerome, but I think it makes them feel a lot better about their salary cap situation if they’re able to move both of those guys and keep, you know, Sam and tie. But like there’s another layer to this whole thing too and this is why it gets complex. So we have a situation where like the Cavs could look to move Isaac and Dean. What if that brings them back a point guard that is similar enough to tie Jerome brings you some level of consistency, some level of comfort, some level of production. Well, if you use Dean and Isaac or one of those guys to get that kind of point guard, then you don’t need to resign Tajerom. Then you made the choice to reconfigure your roster a different kind of way. So I think there are a lot of different options that the Cavs will consider. This offseason. And if you’re not named Donovan Mitchell or Evan Mobley, I don’t know that you should be overly comfortable given the Cavs salary cap situation, given the fact that they flamed out in the second round, given just the urgency to compete for a championship based on a window that has been placed on this team because of the new cba.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, it’s one thing for Kobe that. I mean, Kobe’s never going to go up to the mic and tell us that, yeah, everyone’s for sale. It’s just never going to happen. And I do think he is leaning more towards on the scatter, our team versus continuity scale. He’s leaning more toward continuity. But you got to get creative with our new cap environment and you have to be careful with what you’re willing to spend. Isaac Koro the point that Chris made about Isaac Koro, every contract counts that much more once you get to this level. Because before it was just, it was literally just, hey, Dan Gilbert, you willing to eat this bill? Cool. It’s not like that anymore. Contracts like Isaac Koro and Isaac Koro is not the difference between the second apron and not the second apron. The Cavs are, unless Kobe Altman pulls a rabbit out of a hat, going to be a second April team next year. But like all these things matter, is what I’m saying when it comes to the punitive punishments that the CBA will give you. I will say this though. First of all, I would say I think Dean Wade island might celebrate a new home for their king. More opportunity for Dean to shine couldn’t hurt. The island could use a little sun. It is interesting. We spent so much time this year talking about how the Cavs still believe they’re a defense first team and now it’s summertime and but we look in the shop, the two best perimeter defenders on the team, trading Isaac and or Dean particularly and if that’s the answer, would really test this theory that like Evan Mobley is the ultimate eraser or Jared Allen and Evan Mobley is the cheat code on defense because like I like DeAndre as a defender. I think he’s a plus defender. I don’t think he’s Dean Wade or Isaac Cora defensively, but I think he’s a plus defender. I think Donovan, given his role as a whole, does okay. He’s better than most other superstars who carry some of his similar offensive workloads and he can turn it up. To me, that’s my superstar defensive benchmark. Like, can you lock in and be pretty good when we need you to be pretty good. I think he can do that. Sam Merrill, advanced stats, darling. Sam Merrill is passable. I think we learned. I still think he’s going to get started. Like, it’s not just, like, could you get a Ty Jerome type of place? Like, you better get some defenders. Some guys. You can keep some guys in front of them. If you’re going to trade one or both of these guys, because, man, we’re. We’re running out of plus defenders on this roster.
Ethan Sands: Especially when you talk about the perimeter. Right. Like, it’s not just Evan Mobley and Jared Allen protecting the rim. It’s okay. Well, Donovan, sorry, you got to score 30 at night and be on the perimeter guarding the best player, especially if max dress or DeAndre Hunter, whoever, is in that starting lineup. Like, there’s usually two star players on the perimeter.
Jimmy Watkins: Ivan Mitchell, an awesome rim protector, and a bunch of three. And guys, Darius Garland’s a big separator in this. But just that, those pieces of the puzzle that sound a little bit like Utah to you?
Ethan Sands: Evan Moby’s.
Jimmy Watkins: Evan will be way better than Rudy Gobert offensively today. Yeah, like, as a rookie, he was better than Rudy Gobert offensively, but the idea of it, like, particularly defensively, Donovan Mitchell, awesome protection behind him. Other than that, I don’t know what I’m getting. Like, that’s a scary thought because as we’ve talked about a little bit before, Rudy Gobert has a negative playoff reputation. I think it’s earned, but I think it’s more because of his offense than his defense. Rudy Gobert’s, obviously, you’re 7:2. You’re going to get pulled out to the perimeter. You’re not going to look great all the time trying to guard some of the best players on switches. Luka Doncha is going to shout some swear words in Slovenian at you. Sometimes that’s just life. That’s life in the NBA, but it’s really those Utah Jazz teams in the playoffs, one of their biggest issues was, like, Rudy can’t solve everything. Like, if Mike Conley is getting beat over here and Bojan Bogdanovich is getting beat over here, and your best perimeter defender is Royce o’ Neill, who’s a B. A B in his prime.
Chris Fedor: Perimeter defender, like target Royce o’ Neal.
Jimmy Watkins: There you go.
Chris Fedor: Get ready for it.
Jimmy Watkins: There you go. Like, that makes me a little. A little queasy.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. I mean, I think when we have these conversations about any potential trades for the Cavs, it has to be qualified with. Well, it depends what they can get back in return. And it depends on how they view the return package and whether that allows them to take a step forward because taking a step back is not something that this organization is willing to do. Dan Gilbert has never been the kind of owner that is going to make all these cost cutting moves or he’s not willing to pay the luxury tax if he feels like the team can compete for a championship in if he feels like there’s a real chance here for the window to stay open, you know, he’ll pay the luxury tax bill even if it’s nine figures. And look, if they bring back Ty Jerome and they bring back Sam Merrill and they keep the status quo, it’s going to be a nine figure luxury tax bill. It is going to be massive based on probably the kind of contract that Sam Merrill and Ty Jerome are going to command. And if they can’t find a quote unquote dumping ground for for Isaac Okoro, it’s going to be expensive. But that’s that’s life in the NBA and that’s life. When you what did Kobe Altman say during his press conference earlier this week? I want to live in this space. Well, if you want to live in this space and you want to compete for a championship and you want to pay all this money to Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, Darius Garland and Jared Allen, if you deem them the core four and you’ve given them the contracts that you have given them, well, you’re gonna live in the space and it’s gonna be called the second Apron and it’s gonna be called Deep into the luxury tax. But. But that’s the space that if you want to compete for a championship, you’re probably going to have to live in when you have these kinds of contracts already on your books.
Ethan Sands: Another hey Chris Episode in the books. So with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. You want to have your questions answered. You want to have a shout out on the podcast, Send in your questions and the only way to do that is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the cast from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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