CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins discuss Donovan Mitchell’s leadership and the potential implications of losing his trusted coach, Johnnie Bryant to a head coaching job.
Takeaways:
Johnnie Bryant’s potential departure could impact the Cavs’ management of superstars, including Mitchell.
The Cavs are on the ‘Donovan clock’ with contract considerations looming.
Expectations for the Cavs have shifted to finals or bust.
The championship window is defined by Donovan Mitchell’s presence.
Evan Mobley is seen as the future face of the franchise.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And we are coming to you about Donovan Mitchell, his maturity, his growth, his development and improvement as a leader. Johnny Bryant, his best friend, one of the best coaches in the NBA and a potential head coach, is in the running for multiple different positions, including the Phoenix Suns. Chris and Jimmy. How do you think losing Donovan’s best friend and confidant for sure, but someone who was able to challenge Donovan in ways that nobody else on any coaching staff will be able to losing Johnny Bryant, what do you think that would mean for not only the development of Donovan Mitchell, the mentality of Donovan Mitchell, but but also the development and maturity and leadership of this team? Because if I’m not mistaken, Johnny Bryant was one of the first people to be like, you have to pull back for the rest of the team to give more.
Chris Fedor: I mean, Donovan’s still going to be a great player. Donovan’s still going to be an MVP caliber player. But I think the communication and the relationship between Kenny and Donovan is going to be something that we’re going to have to look at. It certainly is not going to be the level that it was between Donovan and Johnny Bryant because there’s just like a personal relationship there. There’s a trust that has been buil years. So much time together outside of the cameras, away from the spotlight, there’s nothing that Kenny can do to make up for that. There’s nothing that Kenny can do to just become what Johnny Bryant was to Donovan Mitchell, what Johnny Bryant is to Donovan Mitchell. And Kenny even spoke on this throughout the course of the year. He said, I can’t say things to Donovan the way that Johnny can because Johnny knows him better than me because Johnny knows, like, what things are going to resonate best with Donovan. And it’s still early into the relationship between Kenny and Donovan. I think Kenny’s the kind of guy who can form relationships with everybody. So it’s not a situation where all of a sudden there is going to be nobody on this coaching staff that Donovan trusts or believes in or anything along those lines. But of course it’s going to be different. You’re taking away the guy that Donovan trusts most in this world that’s not named Rick Pitino. Probably the relationship that he has had with Johnny Bryant is one that nobody else in the NBA will be able to match. And who knows, Maybe Johnny doesn’t get this job. Maybe Phoenix goes a different way. But if he does depart it would be a loss. It’s not the kind of loss that’s going to crater Donovan’s relationship with the organization or Donovan’s relationship with his teammates or the coaching staff. And it’s not the kind of loss that. That is one that Kenny’s not going to be able to replace. He has a Rolodex. He has a bunch of coaches that, that he knows that he believes in. So he’ll find somebody else to take that spot from Johnny. But I think anybody would be naive to say that it would be the same. It would not be the same because Johnny and his relationship with Donovan, like, it transcended. And it was one that, you know, was very beneficial to the Cavs this year. And it was very beneficial to the step that Donovan made in terms of his leadership, his willingness to empower, his willingness to take a step back every single time that there was a timeout or a stoppage. The person who pulled Donovan Mitchell to the side before anybody else was Johnny Bryant. Donovan listens to him in a different way. He just does. He trusts him in a different way. So it would be something that the Cavs would, you know, have to figure out, like, how do they replicate that? What do they do, if anything, to try and replicate that and try and make it as smooth as what it was when Johnny was here. That’s if. And it’s a big if. If Johnny gets a head coaching job this offseason.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, first I would just like to send my dearest condolences to whoever gets that Phoenix Suns job, not just Johnny Bryant, whoever, whoever ends up with it. That’s a, that’s a tough. Let’s see, we got Frank.
Chris Fedor: That is an owner who is going to continue to make more and more mistakes. He’s gonna step on his own feet and fall on his face before he finally has an epiphany of, okay, I’ve got to do something different here.
Jimmy Watkins: We, we don’t have to let. We don’t have time to list all the Phoenix Suns mistakes in recent years, but to name a few, from strictly the coaching perspective, we go from Frank Vogel, championship winning coach, established good coach, who actually now looking back on the job, Bud did probably got more out of that team than, than most guys could have fired. Fired after two seasons. But we got two seasons or one I don’t even know. And then Mike Budenholzer, championship winning coach, coach of the year, one season, done.
Chris Fedor: Didn’T even go through a coaching search because they were so adamant that Bud was the right guy.
Jimmy Watkins: No thank you. And oh by the way, Kevin Durant might get traded. And oh by the way, if you do that, who knows what Devin Booker is going to want. And oh by the way, Bradley Beals basically the most powerful man in the NBA. He’s not very good but he still has no trade clause. Good luck. Good luck. Wish you well. How do you pitch your excitement for that job? Yeah, if you’re Johnny Bryant, I don’t know any who I would say this about if Johnny Bryant’s potential departure if he goes. It will be really interesting to see how the Cavs navigate rocky times if and when they arise as it pertains to Donovan because honestly one of the biggest conversations questions we had with Kenny coming into this year is like what did he learn from the Brooklyn Net situation? About managing superstars, Steve, Kirk, Tyron, Lou about managing superstars. And he’s, he said a lot. He said more. He’s. He’s talked about being more of a manager than a hands on coach. And I think the Steve Kerr culture is kind of related to that. Like you don’t have to hold these guys hands, you don’t want to work them too hard, all that. It also just really helps to have an assistant that your best player trusts implicitly like that. And for to have the regular season at least go about as well as it could have possibly gone like next year, particularly assuming the Cavs don’t make any major changes here is going to be pivotal and we’re going to end of the season with a lot of tension. And if the Cavs don’t start right, that’s going to get thick quickly. And if at any point the calves go on a long it’ll get thick quickly. We get into the play like all that stuff will be harder to manage without Johnny Bryant. It will be a bigger challenge for Kenny. I’m not saying he can’t do it. I’m just saying he doesn’t have a tool available to him, a critical tool, a critical person standing next to him that he had this last year. The other thing is we talked on the last podcast about how well you look up and suddenly we’re kind of on the Donovan clock again. You know, he’s got two guaranteed years left on his contract in the NBA. You never really want to be a team that has a superstar on the last year of his deal and no extension like the opportunity for him to just walk. And that’s probably going to be the case because it doesn’t make really any sense for Donovan to sign an extension. Until after. This is his eighth year that he just finished after his 10th year of service. So we can get that 35% max. Like, it could get real strange. We spent a lot of the beginning of this season saying, man, it’s kind of nice. Players are saying it’s this weight has been lifted because we know what Donovan is doing now. Well, we’re not that far from going back into the weird gray area again. And I’m. Again, we don’t know where Johnny Bryant would end up. We know that if he goes to Phoenix for reasons that have nothing to do with Johnny Bryant, there’s probably going to be some sort of fire lit very quickly after he gets there. But I’m just saying. I’m just saying. I’m just saying if Johnny Bryant lands somewhere and it works and that place happens to create some cap space and the cabs happen to go sideways, like, that’s a. That’s a thing you got to watch as well.
Chris Fedor: I think there’s a bigger picture thing here, too, guys, that for a majority of the Donovan Mitchell era, there has not been a lot of drama. There’s not been a lot of conflicts. I think the Cavs are going into a season where there is strong potential for conflict and drama. And look, maybe that’s a good thing. Maybe that’s what this group needs. Maybe they need some internal conflict. Maybe it is a little bit too loose. I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to that question. But with expectation comes pressure. With pressure and expectation comes potential conflict and drama. And if things don’t go well and like, all of these things are expected of the Cavs, and it’s. It’s almost like finals or bust, conference finals or bust. Like, that’s very different. It’s very different than what it has been over the last couple of years. You know, like, the last couple of years, it’s been about, take the next step. Take the next step. Oh, we don’t want to define the next step specifically, but take the next step. And it was almost like last year. They knew that J.B. bickerstaff was probably going to go, that they were going to win that battle anyway, and somebody knew was going to come in and it was going to be the honeymoon phase, and everything was fresh and new and fun and exciting and different. And it led to 64 wins. It led to the number one seed. But, like, this was the first loss that they actually had as a group where you could tell it hit them hard. Like, they didn’t have the attached Qualifiers. It wasn’t too early for this group. Like, it wasn’t some ahead of schedule team that was playing above their head that feels like, oh, we’re just going to come back next year and we’re going to be there next year anyway. And it wasn’t a team that was in the middle of a rebuild that was just like, hey, get to the playoffs. No ping pong balls this time, just get to the playoffs. So like, this is the one where all of a sudden, like, stuff starts to trickle in and if things don’t go well and if they don’t look like a championship level team, then all of a sudden that stuff gets bigger and bigger and bigger and it manifests itself in a different kind of way. So I would just say to everybody out there, pay attention to that. Because, like, once you get to this point as an organization with this pressure, with these expectations, conflict starts to happen. And not just like on court, stylistic conflict of, hey, can Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell play together? Hey, can Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, those two bigs, can that work together? No, no, no. We’re talking about the other stuff, the.
Ethan Sands: Intangibles that made this team so great at the beginning of the season. Chris, the joy that they’ve played with, could that turn into a conflict? I think that’s a storyline that we have to watch for. Right? And obviously we know that Kenny Atkinson is going to do everything in his power to keep this group together and keep this group as cheerful and happy because that’s when they prove to be at their best. But sometimes it’s not that easy. And I think if there’s anybody that knows that, it’s Kenny Atkinson. And speaking of coaches, and obviously we spoke about Johnny Bryant, his importance, and obviously we’ll get into his importance and the X’s and O’s rather than just a Donovan Mitchell player development. And also his relationship and, and a different podcast.
Chris Fedor: But I wonder how that informs the thinking of this organization this off season. Like, not that Donovan’s in a walk year or anything along those lines, but like, he wants to compete for championships, period. Like, he wants to go to the conference finals. He wants to compete for championships. And I know that they like the fact that they’re set up for sustainable success. And I know that they talk about having this long Runway because of the age of this core, because all these guys under contract, but if they’re presented with an opportunity, if the phone rings and somebody makes an offer for Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, Darius Garland, and the offer presented to Them gives them players that are probably closer to the timeline of Donovan Mitchell in terms of competing for a championship, not winning 64 games, not being the number one. I mean playoff level success, like proven playoff level competitors, proven 16 game players. Like if that package is offered to them, if that’s presented to them, I think they give that thought. I think they give that more thought than they have in the past because of some of the things that, that they saw, especially in this series against Indiana. And I think that’s going to make it really, really fascinating for this front office.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I would just say that I don’t think there is such thing as a long Runway with the new cba. We’re new to this world, right?
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: But we’re already seeing the Denver Nuggets, who won a championship with two stars in their early primes, Jokichin and Jamal Murray, struggling to get out of the second round. No defending champions got out of the second round since 2019. Obviously that goes. That predates the CBA, but I’m just saying Boston Celtics have decisions to make already with their roster. Cavs are already brushing up against the second apron and they haven’t made it out second round yet. The other thing I would say is that for me, until I see otherwise, the championship window is defined by Donovan Mitchell’s presence on the team.
Chris Fedor: I agree.
Jimmy Watkins: And that is only guaranteed for two more years. So you gotta get moving here. It’s entirely possible that within the next two years the Cavs can take those steps. But boy, if you don’t like, I feel like every time the Cavs take a step back like this, it gets harder to take a couple steps forward because it adds pressure. It adds all this, you know, Donovan can encourage it all he wants. It adds a bunch of frankly, hate on the Internet and criticism that, you know, if your reputation or what you’re showing me is you’re not mentally tough, that’s not going to help you get tougher all the time. Okay. Sometimes you’re going to read the comments and have a bad day. Evan Mobley is a great player. I think he has another leap in him. But even if Donovan stays, I wrote this the other day. Even if Donovan stays and you sign him up. By the way, we can have another podcast at some point in the summer. Whether you do want to sign Donovan to four plus year supermax past age 30, you know, you want to be paying that guy $70 million or thereabouts when he’s 34, I’m not so sure. Guys his size or smaller past age 30, since 2000. Eight of them made all NBA teams. These smaller, shorter guards. After 30, it’s kind of a crapshoot. I’m a true Blue Donovan Mitchell believer, but I don’t know what this. What this team looks like. It’s not just when Evan Mobley is the best player on the team. Like, we’re thinking of it as what happens when that happens, because Evan Mobley just ascends to a level that’s undeniable. Well, what if it’s because Donovan Mitchell takes a step back at some point during this. During this journey? We are now zoomed way far out. But I’m just saying, like, this CBA makes you think bigger.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: And I’m thinking big here.
Chris Fedor: I mean, I know what Kobe said the other day. Kobe Altman was talking about, we need Evan to be our best player. And look, people inside this organization have been saying that for two years now that if they’re going to hang another championship banner, it’s not because of Darius Garland. It’s not because of Donovan Mitchell. It’s because Evan is the one that helps them do that. Evan becomes the guy. He becomes the man. He is the one. He is the best player. But I think there’s a legitimate question about how far away are they from that happening. How far away is Evan from being their best player? It’s still Donovan. Whether it can be or not is a completely different question, but it still is. His usage rating spiked when they got into the playoffs. Like, it ascended to a level that it was when he was in Utah. It’s not what it was supposed to be. That’s not how this team was built. That’s not how they won 64 games. But that’s what happens, because it’s still Donovan’s team. He’s still the best player. He’s still the face of the franchise. So, yeah, I think I’m with Kobe. Like, it needs to be Evan, but I don’t think Evan’s ready for that. I don’t think he’s ready for that this year. How far away do you guys think that is?
Ethan Sands: How far do we think it is? Or how far does it have to be?
Chris Fedor: No, how far away do you think it is? I think we know how far away.
Jimmy Watkins: It has to be immediate. It has to be immediate. You get into the business of trying to predict people. This is not. It’s not a basketball conversation as much as anymore. Everyone develops at their own pace.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: And that’s, by the way, totally fine. In life, when you have a lifetime to figure this stuff out when you have two years. I don’t know, man. The question to me is like, do you want to win a championship or do you want to say you were good for a long time at this point? That’s kind of where I’m at. Because if you want to win a championship, go take a risk. Go get like, I’m not saying trade them, but. But see what you can get. Forevermore. The answer is a lot. And that a lot might come back and get you a championship. And banners hang forever no matter how much. It doesn’t matter if you shorten your contention window. Like, obviously I’m thinking about the Giannis thing is top of mind right now. Like the Twitter brain, the GM would tell you, well, you’re shortening your contention window by six, seven years. Like, hey, if I win a banner, I don’t care, right? I don’t care. Brian Winhorse likes to say winning a championship means you never have to say you’re sorry.
Chris Fedor: Right?
Jimmy Watkins: And I believe in that. I believe and I believe that whatever is out there for either a combination of some of these guys or the crown jewel, Evan Mobley might be a little bit. No. Is Rhett more ready to win a championship than what the core is right now?
Ethan Sands: I think the earliest it happens is when Evan turns 25. After next year, I think he turns 25 and that’s the soonest we see the potential for him to make that jump. I just don’t think he’s ready, emotionally, spiritually, physically for it to happen next year. If he surprises us again with a huge jump this summer, I would not count him out. But I personally think it’s going to take him turning 25 and realizing not only how important he is, but like the straight up fact that he has to be the best player. Or as I wrote in an article, he doesn’t necessarily have to be the best player because Donovan still has the torch burning in his hands. But like, you have to at least play or act like you think you’re the best player on the team because if you are still timid, if you’re still second guessing, if you’re still asking questions, should I have taken over in this situation? Should I have done X, whatever. No, you just do. That’s what the best players do. They switch into a different mindset. Obviously it doesn’t necessarily have to be in the playoffs or whatever a scenario presents itself. You feel like this is a time where you can make an impact. You do it. You ask questions, you ask for forgiveness. Later, as Jimmy was mentioning.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: And I think that’s how you operate through life if you are a dog. And this is what I’ve heard this so many times throughout my life. Leaders are born that way. You are a born leader. You get nurtured into the system that you are leading. But to be a leader, it has to be in you. And this is, again, we’ll get to the mental toughness conversation and all these things. Is it in you? Is it on you? Is it something that you can learn through experience? All these things. The reality of Evan Mobley’s situation is he is great. He just doesn’t know it to the standard that everybody else around him does. And that’s the problem.
Chris Fedor: I think there’s another layer to this, too. Donovan himself has to be ready to not be the best player.
Ethan Sands: Do you not think he is?
Chris Fedor: No. So, like, here’s the thing. I think Donovan sees the potential in Evan, think he does think everybody sees the potential in Evan. I think Donovan wants it to come out more than what it has. And I think Donovan recognizes that there’s still more developing that that Evan has to do. And I think Donovan recognizes that Evan doesn’t yet know how to be a star. Like, there are so many things that come with that. And like Donovan, again, I’m not going to try and put words in Donovan’s mouth or whatever. He can speak for himself, but it feels like, to me, he wants it to happen, but sees that it’s not happening yet and understands that as much as he wants it to happen, Evan’s not ready yet. So that’s where there’s, like, a breakdown here. And that’s why I think you have some of these other conversations, some of them pie in the sky. But, you know, agents around the NBA are talking about these things. Various members of other organizations are talking about these things. Just hypothetically throwing this out there, because this is the thing that Jimmy brought up a couple of podcasts ago and other people have brought it up to. Like, there’s a clear difference when it comes to Giannis and Evan, and one of them is who Donovan is taking a step back from. Donovan would have no choice but to accept the fact that Giannis is better than him. He would have no choice. Right. Giannis is a champion. Giannis is an mvp. Giannis has done things that Donovan just dreams of doing. There’s still a level to this sort of thing. And I know that I referenced this over and over and over again, but it feels like a little bit to me that what needs to happen for the Cavs for Donovan to take that step, step back is something similar to what happened in Miami when LeBron went to Miami. Like Dwyane Wade, mega star, hall of Famer, was willing to take a step back because of who it was that he was pushing forward. He had no choice. Like, yeah, Dwyane Wade was Mr. Miami. Yeah, Dwyane Wade was Mr. Heat, but it’s LeBron, so like it’s easier as a player to accept that and take a step back. When is that guy, right? Like you have a belief in that guy. You understand that guy’s readiness for that particular thing. And I just don’t know. I think it would be hard for Donovan to take the step back that he probably needs to take when the playoffs roll around. Regular season is very, very different. It becomes easy to do it in the regular season. But when like the pressure is there and like your legacy is on the line. Right. Like it’s harder for him, I think, to take a step back when the guy who has to step forward just like isn’t ready. In most cases that’s okay. Like we’re talking about 23 year old kid here who has accomplished so much already early on in his career. But I just don’t think when the going gets tough and the pressure ramps up, I don’t think Donovan yet is fully willing to take that step back.
Jimmy Watkins: One, to understate Chris’s point about the difference between Donovan and. Yeah, has Donovan just cracked top five MVP voting for the first time in his career? That’s incredible. He deserves it. Giannis just did it for the sixth straight time. Okay, discussion over right there. Second thing is, so for Donovan to relinquish the label of best player on the Cavs, it’s not just about who takes the last shot. It’s like a dream dies. Like, Chris did a big feature on Donovan before the playoffs. I believe it was last year, 2024, in which Donovan said, I want to be like one of the faces of the league.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: If you’re the second best player on a championship team. And there is a. By the way, there’s a, there’s a part, there’s a version of this where who the best player on the Cavs is a muddy conversation between Donovan and Evan. If it all works out and Donovan would be the more famous one. And maybe it just works out in the end that way. But like you’re asking this, this guy who has harbored this idea, the way he sees himself for so long, been mostly validated, even today after this playoff run, I’m not writing Donovan Mitchell off as as the best player on a championship team. I’m not doing that. I don’t think anyone is. I think if anything, he’s had some rough luck in the playoffs, be it injury. I mean, like, you want, like Donovan’s had trouble letting go. Okay? He’s had two teammates ever who have averaged 20 points a game. Who’s he letting go for?
Chris Fedor: Right?
Jimmy Watkins: That’s a valid question.
Chris Fedor: Right?
Jimmy Watkins: That’s a valid question.
Chris Fedor: But that there’s getting out of the second round this time is not a reflection on him.
Jimmy Watkins: No, no. There’s just more tweaks that he needs to make as well. And this one is a big ask if we even get to a point where he needs to make it, if there’s someone on the team that’s worth making it for.
Ethan Sands: With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. If you want these spicy hot takes directly to your phone on a daily basis, this is where you get them. So the only place to do this, the only way to do this is signing up for a 14 day free trial or visiting cleveland.com Cavs and clicking on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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