CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands analyzes the strategic decisions made by coach Tom Thibodeau, the impact of bench players, and how those moves could inform the Cavs to find a suitable backup big or test the viability of a player already on a two-way contract.
Takeaways:
The Knicks made history with three 20-point comebacks in playoffs.
Karl-Anthony Towns dominated the fourth quarter for the Knicks with 20 points in the period alone, proving to be the type of second star the Cavs need to find or create to match with Donovan Mitchell
Bench contributions were crucial for the Knicks’ success.
The Cavs must consider offseason moves for a backup big.
The Cavs are also considering in-house moves due to financial constraints with Nae’Qwan Tomlin’s two-way contract and abilities offering flexibility for the team if he would get more opportunities in the NBA.
The NBA’s big man landscape is likely to change this summer.
The Cavs are confident in their core group of players.
Donovan Mitchell is focused on playoff success.
The podcast will continue to provide insights throughout the offseason.
Listen using the player below:
You can also listen using your preferred podcast app. Subscription information is below.
Subscribe and listen onApple Podcasts or Spotify.
The video version of the podcast is on YouTube as well.
Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And I’m coming to you guys after game three of the Eastern Conference finals between the New York Knicks and the Indiana Pacers. The New York Knicks came into this game in Indiana training trailing two zero in a series. Then they made history. Not the final score, which was 106 to 100, but they became the first team in the play by play era to achieve three 20 point comeback victories in a single playoff run. Not to mention, all three of those comeback wins were on the road. So a very, very interesting contest from start to finish. Obviously we got to see a little bit of that roller coaster that we talked about that the playoffs come with, but coming into this series, we talked about how the Pacers weren’t the Celtics and they had fourth quarter execution to prove it. In the first two games of the Eastern Conference finals against the Knicks, what was most impressive to me was was that they made a comeback in the fourth quarter with Jalen Brunson largely on the bench, right? So we understood that Jalen Brunson was dealing with foul trouble. He had five fouls at one point in the fourth quarter and he had been dealing with foul trouble throughout a majority of the contest. So we got to see a little bit of a different rotation lineup that was being utilized. And that takes us back all the way to how Tom Thibodeau changed the starting lineup to start the game. So I’m going to work myself backwards, right, Start with the fourth quarter and work to the beginning of the game. And the fourth quarter was dominated in large part by Karl Anthony Towns. And it just seemed clear to me that at one point in the fourth quarter he just viewed Miles Turner as a mismatch because Turner wasn’t quick enough to keep up with them. And, and that allowed Towns to have scored 20 points in the fourth quarter alone. And of course we know that he only had four points coming into the final period. So the Knicks played their bench and were able to find a lineup that worked with Jalen Brunson off the floor. With Brunson on the bench, it allowed Tom Thibodeau to play a better defender, induce McBride to slow down the Pacers transition offense and and have to play in the half court, which is more difficult for them than having their flowing offense, right? And Thibs was forced into the situation in part to being down 2 0. Here’s how we get to the beginning of the game, right? With their backs against the wall and making a lineup change to begin the contest to try something different, starting with Mitchell Robinson instead of Josh Hart, to give the Pacers a different look. And according to Josh Hart talking in his postgame interview, he said it’s something he’s been willing to do and had a hand in the decision to start Mitchell Robinson and said the conversation started around the end of the Boston series. So this has been a lingering question that’s been going on throughout the Eastern Conference Finals that the Knicks now had to utilize to make sure that the series didn’t end, as I mentioned earlier, sooner than than some might have expected. And if you don’t recall, I believe it was Chris Fedor and myself that said that this would be a struggle of a series. But we both had Indiana coming out of it on top and heading their way to the NBA Finals. So I think the next portion of this that I wanted to get into has to be that lineup decision and what that means, not even for the Pacers, but also for the Cavs. I think that opened the floodgates for Tibbs to try different lineups and and seeing something that Kenny Atkinson of the Cavs had learned throughout the regular season. Sometimes different lineups work better than your normal rotations and can ignite a run because the opposing team is not necessarily prepared for that lineup as much, especially when the top of the scouting report is always going to be Jalen Brunson for the New York Knicks. Obviously in the Cavs series, there are different times where we’ve seen in the postseason where it was optional for Kenny Atkinson to use these lineups that he had worked with in the past, worked with in the regular season and still stuck with certain players that maybe should have gotten a little bit more of a breather or necessarily weren’t having the output and productivity needed to get the necessary minutes that they got. And I think the Cavs should have gone back to that concept in the playoffs, one that they had honed in on and use throughout the regular season. Jalen Brunson said in his post game interview with the TNT crew of Shaq, Chuck Ernie and Kenny the Jet Smith talking about how that is how they’re built, right? They’re built on continuity and camaraderie and the chemistry that they have as elite. Sounds really familiar, right? And interesting enough, the Knicks are the team that’s probably gotten the most scrutiny, especially for their head coach about not using the depth that they have and utilizing a team that has a lot of different players and instead giving heavy minutes to those starting players even throughout the regular season. But maybe that’s the reason why they’ve been able to run with the Indiana Pacers at least to keep up even though they were down to before game three. Right. So it’s an interesting concept and something that has to have a little bit of a push and pull dynamic, especially when we talk about Tom Thibodeau being able to go into his bench. Obviously maybe more so because of the situation than wanting to, but I think Kenny Atkinson can learn from that and will take that into consideration going into this next regular season. Obviously we’ve said this before, that 82 game season for the Cavs this next year isn’t going to matter as much. So the reality is how Kenny Atkinson is going to utilize this in in the playoffs and if he’s going to be able to be different from learning from this experience and even being able to watch the playoffs now, because we know he’s, he’s a basketball jump key and he’s definitely getting his fix in with watching these different contests and figuring out where he can improve and also of course, watching the game film back from their series in the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Indiana Pacers as well. So in my opinion, Atkinson might have leaned into Donovan Mitchell a little bit too much because not only was he playing hero ball, but he was also injuring and hurting himself by overexerting as he did in last year’s playoffs, even though that was under Jamie Bickerstaff. That’s more so a Donovan Mitchell thing rather than a Kenny Atkinson thing. But to be honest, we’ve talked about it in the past on multiple occasions. He was doing too much and sometimes you need to save your player from himself. And that’s what it felt like Tibbs was doing for Brunson, not only because of the five foul situation and him being physical and wanting to be in the game and all these things, but knowing that there were other options. Right? He also did it for Kat the other night, even though that didn’t turn into a comeback victory and that didn’t take away from the belief that Tibbs has in his stars. And as the TNT broadcast mentioned throughout the game, like there might not be a coach that believes in his star player more than Tibbs in the clutch for Jalen Brunson, but still he had the mindset to keep Brunson on the bench for that stretch and it was a playoff scenario that called for something different. And then sticking with what worked right, Brunson came back in to help close the game, but with five fouls, Thibs had to be strategic about his usage. And we also know obviously If Miles Deuce McBride doesn’t have that fourth quarter or isn’t playing to the caliber or standard, maybe that decision gets altered. But seeing as though the bench unit for the New York Knicks was so successful in tonight’s matchup, it wasn’t so surprising to see Miles, even though he picked up three fouls in about a minute and a half when he first entered into the game, seeing him be so fresh, so, so renewed, so opportunistic, it made sense for him to have that kind of fourth quarter. He had nine points when the game ended. He was a plus seven and he had one steal and he made some clutch free throws as well. Then you talk about Josh Hart, who was a man on a mission, of course, off the bench, doing everything he could. Even though he was on the bench. He helped close the game. 34 minutes. And we talked about this, right? Sometimes it’s not as important as to whether you start the game, but it’s who finishes, right? And obviously Mitchell Robinson was in to finish the game, in part because Karl Anthony Towns, although he had 20 points in the fourth quarter, even though he had just four in the first three quarters, right? It was because Karl Anthony Towns looked like he was hobbled, right? He had been grabbing at his knee coming down after it looked like a hard layup attempt. That’s the reason why he might have been a little bit hobbled, but he was able to finish the game alongside Mitchell Robinson, who was in for a defensive effort. They were going in and out at the end of the contest. Obviously Thibs noticed that one of his star players was not at his best standard. And you have to switch that even if Kat was going off in that standard right in that fourth quarter. So I think it’s important to have that give and take. And Tom Thibodeau, even though he’s gotten a lot of criticism for how he’s coached this team in particular, also his minute allocation for throughout his entire NBA coaching career, I think this was one of his better performances as a coach, especially going up against Rick Carlisle, who the Cavs know better than anybody, is a tactician and is someone that can put up a fight in all of these different series and all of these different scenarios, especially when you talk about all the ATOs, the challenges, the timeouts that were taking place, and figuring out which lineup was best to counteract what the Indiana Pacers had done so well. And obviously we talked a little Bit about Jalen Brunson being on the bench in the fourth quarter, but he was also on the bench at points in the third quarter as well. And again, that defensive effort that allowed for other players on the bench to come off. Delon Wright, who was a plus two in his 13 minutes, Landry Shamette, who was a plus 12 in his 11 minutes. Being able to be better defenders, simply put, than Jalen Brunson held the Indiana Pacers to 42 points in the second half and the Knicks scored 36 points in the fourth quarter alone. So that dictated how the second half went. Obviously, if the defense is going to be able to keep up with the Indiana Pacers, which is one of the hardest things, I think that is something that the New York Knicks are going to try and take advantage of. And I’m going to get into something a little bit later about the bigs and how Indiana and Riccarl could look at this Game three and use that going forward, especially at home for Game four. But that being said, the beauty for Tibbs was that the Knicks had a second star step up in those scenarios, especially when Brunson wasn’t on the floor. That’s the role that the Cavs hope Evan Mobley can step into, right? Obviously you’re not able to have such confidence in the offensive flow or have such confidence in the offense as a whole, especially Deuce McBride coming in and doing what he did offensively as well was helpful. But Carl Anthony Towns having 20 points in the fourth quarter quarter, that’s exactly the kind of step up, that’s exactly the kind of rise that you need and expect from a guy that you traded for for these moments, right? And obviously Evan Mobley is a homegrown talent. He’s 23 years old, going to be 24 years old at the end of June. But the Cavs expect him, especially coming into his fifth season after being an All Star, all NBA second team, being a defensive player of the year. And we know all of these accolades, first team, all defensive team like, all of these accolades represent the promise and the prospect of what Evan Mobley can bring to this team. But the reality is when the playoff lights shine, they felt like they had to go and lean into Donovan Mitchell as much as they did. Donovan Mitchell didn’t feel safe going onto the bench because there was this realization, there was this understanding, and I’m not putting words into his mouth. This is what I perceive from being at the arena for a lot of these games and getting to witness the frustration from Donovan Mitchell not Only this season, but last season as well, when their season came to an end against the Boston Celtics in Boston. And understanding just how difficult it is not only for him to let go of the reigns, but also hand them over when he doesn’t necessarily feel like the person he’s handing the game over to is ready. Right. And Evan Mobley has shown a lot of promise. He’s shown a lot of growth. But there’s still something left for him to get to and that’s playoff success. On the offensive end, we see glimpses and glamours and all these things, but the reality of the situation is when consistency comes, that’s when we’ll have the real conversation of whether or not Evan Mobley is capable of being the number one player on the Cavs. And that has been what a lot of people in the NBA executives in the organization of the Cavs itself have said, that Evan Mobley needs to be the best player on this team for them to win a championship. And Donovan Mitchell is one of the best players in the NBA top 15. You can argue about that. Maybe he’s even lower on that list. Top 10. Right. But I think the reality of this conversation is Evan Mobley has to take another jump. And Kobe Altman was pretty preaching that at his end of season press conference about how this summer is again going to be a big summer for Evan Mobley and his development and wanting to take the next step because they’ve been having these conversations about his importance since he got drafted. And I think that’s a crucial piece of context because of what his expectations have been not only for himself wanting to be one of the best players to ever play the game, but but also for this team because he’s a winner and he understands that he needs to be more for them to be able to have that level of success. And Donovan Mitchell is counting on him. Right. That’s why there’s conversations, rumors going around the NBA currently about whether or not it would be better for Evan Mobley to get traded for a guy like Giannis Antetokounmpo, even though those contracts don’t necessarily match up exactly. And that would lead to the Cavs having to add another player to be able to figure that out, especially with the second apron stipulations as well. I also want to talk a little bit about something I was noticing throughout the majority of the game and how Rick Carlisle kind of did the opposite of Tibbs in a way down the stretch. Obviously the Pacers bigs off the bench, particularly Obi Toppin have been big for them in slowing down Karl Anthony Towns throughout this series. And Tony Bradley’s role playing, who has been taking the minutes that were usually been given to Jairus Walker and Thomas Bryant throughout the Cavs series, has been more so focused on slowing down Mitchell Robinson, especially on the boards, and he’s been doing a better job than most might have expected. But I wanted to focus in on Obi Toppin a little bit and how his role for this Pacers team was big even against the Cavs, but also is something that I think Rick Carlos should have leaned into more in this contest, especially with how Miles Turner was guarding Kat at the end of the contest in the fourth quarter. Obi Tomlin was a plus 19 and that’s in part because of his ability to get up and down the floor, creating space that way, but also being a rebounder and being a live threat, creating that vertical spacing on offense but also on the defensive end, his quick feet, length and size and strength as well. Also just being able to jump up. He has that kind of ability to make offensive players think twice about putting up a shot because of his ability to get off the floor so quickly. His reaction time is great as well. While Cavs fans might think of somebody like Dean Wade to fill this role, it still remains a question if the Cavs need another backup big, especially in scenarios when Jared Allen or Evan Mobley are struggling off the floor in foul trouble. All these different situations that had the Cavs in some trouble during the playoffs. I personally think Rick Carlisle should have gone away from Turner sooner, especially when Towns was heating up and I mentioned that a little bit earlier. But I asked our subtexters who could be options the Cavs go to for backup bigs to fill those types of roles. And especially when we talk about how the Cavs didn’t really have a backup big outside of Dean Wade and Tristan Thompson this season. And we we’ve talked about this a lot over the last couple of years about what the Cavs need most, especially when it comes to the the bigger wings. Obviously Isaac Koro being 6 5, Max Sch being 6. 5, Samuel being 6 4. Those have been questions about whether or not they can last as true small forwards in this league, but also we’ve kind of squashed those. It’s more so about how Jared Allen and Evan Mobley can get the help that they need. And especially when we talk about a team that has utilized both Jared and Evan as the five man with splitting those minutes and splitting those lineups and figuring out which matchup works best against a given opponent? All of those things are important to But I think there are players on the market that could be helpful to the Cavs when it comes to adding another big that that is strength, speed and can get up and down the floor as in vertically and horizontally. And I think those all are important to this Cavs team, especially when you talk about the the viability of going up against teams like the Boston Celtics, the Indiana Pacers and even the New York Knicks when we talk about the play playoffs and how these teams have the physicality and the speed and the endurance to match up with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley, depending on the situation. Obviously Evan Mobley, if he continues to do his track workouts in the offseason as we saw last year, maybe his speed increases, maybe his agility continues to increase, maybe most importantly his endurance increases. But I think it’s most important for the Cavs to also look at different options to see what is viable even in the second apron, especially if they do go ahead and make a deal. And as we’ve talked about on this podcast before, it’s most important what they get back. Do you get a bigger guard to match up with Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland or a more defensive guard, right? Or do you get a rim, another rim running big that is able to get up and down the floor? Do you get another stretch wing? All these questions need to be asked. So on today’s podcast and after watching the Pacers Knicks Game three, I talked to our subtexters about who they could see on the Cavs roster as a backup big to back up Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, particularly if they are both on this roster come next season. Let’s run through these subtext responses. A couple of them are very straightforward. I want a big that can play better than Jared Allen. He has to go. That’s one of them. Here are a couple of names. Bobby Portis, Luke Cornett, Daron Sharp, Mason Plumlee, Daniel Gafford and P.J. washington are the most commonly listed ones in this thread. While these are all great options, and I’m not going to argue with anybody saying that these guys are potential candidates for the Cavs to go out and look for, I do think that the Cavs, obviously with the second apron stipulation that they have to think about, could be thinking about another in house move this time. Not someone who’s undersized, not someone who hasn’t done anything to prove themselves, but someone that has gotten a little bit more opportunity as the season of last year progressed. I’m talking about Naquan Tomlin, a guy that earned a two way contract last season because of not only his size but his defensive ability, his and he’s able to get up and down the floor and has the vertical spacing that we talked about with Obi Toppin. That could be a ceiling player for him depending on how next year goes. It’s definitely a character that I want to keep my eyes on this coming season, especially because the Cavs signed them to a two year contract that is much cheaper than some of these guys would go for. That we mentioned and it’s something that we’ve continued to see Koby Altman and this organization want to do, which is bringing up younger players with the opportunity to grow and learn from the players ahead of them, but also giving them an opportunity to prove themselves and show that they are capable of stepping into these roles. Obviously we had this conversation the other day about Jaylon Tyson and Craig Porter Jr. Maybe they’re not necessarily ready for the specific roles that were talking about for them, but I feel like Naquan Tomlin, backup, big off the bench, someone that could take maybe 10 to 15 minutes a game. I think that’s a role that that could be suitable for him and would be one of the best stories in the NBA. If you have read my article on cleveland.com about how he came from not really playing in high school, not playing in an AAU circuit, but learning by playing at Rucker park in Harlem, New York, I think this move would make sense for the Cavs when it comes to the financial stipulations. I also think it would make sense for the Cavs when it comes to bringing up yet another player in their system that has the potential to be a backup in the NBA. I think you just got to give him more of an opportunity. Obviously he was on a two way. He was playing with the charge majority of the season. We got a couple of different instances where you saw him. He can also shoot from beyond the arc, which I think is important for this Cavs team. When we’re talking about a stretch four or stretch five that can space the floor, run the floor and be a menace on both sides of the ball. He acts like he’s got a lot of energy and plays with a lot of grit and determination and I think that would be my pick. Obviously there are great options from our subtexters who come in with a whole lot of knowledge, but I think there’s definitely a desire from within the organization to keep the money as tight as possible and Naquan Tomlin could be the option. So yeah, that would be my pick. Naquan Tomlin, 6 foot 10, still learning the league going to get to grow up around one of the best bigs in the league. And Evan Mobley, he’s got Tristan Thompson there as well currently, even though he’s going to be a unrestricted free agent come this summer. Jared Allen as well. I think this is a great system for him to get nurtured in. Obviously the two year, two way deal is extremely helpful in this scenario and if you feel like he’s ready, you can upgrade him to an NBA standard contract during the season. And that can be based on where the Cavs are in the second apron and how they feel like they can move financially at that point in the year without having to make any drastic changes or any drastic additions that could put them even further into the tax during this offseason. But that’s just one move that I think could help this Cavs team and obviously give us some shine to a guy who is coming up in their system. But I think the landscape of the NBA’s big men is going to be interesting this summer, especially when you talk about how teams are are beginning to utilize a too big lineup to counteract what the Cavs are doing and how that’s been a blueprint for some teams. But they also are emphasizing having a stretch four alongside that and how that could impact how they go get a big center if they already have one, or acquiring a stretch four to match up with their true center. And obviously they still would have backup bigs as well to maintain the look of keeping the center minutes split up with a bench player. So I think it’ll be interesting how the Cavs react to the offseason market and how different teams are reacting to who is available, who is being made available. I think what we learned from the Luka trade is that really there are so many different conversations happening behind the scenes that it’s truly up to what is best for the team and what is best for the team going forward, especially with the belief of not only the gm, but the head coaching staff and the players that are currently on that roster. Obviously the Luca trade might be an exception to how surprising it was, but there are teams that are looking for bigs such as Jared Allen. The Los Angeles Lakers will likely come calling and I think there’s teams that are also obviously going to be interested in Evan Mobley. But I think the only team that the only player that the Cavs would really shop Evan Mobley for would be Giannis Antetokounmpo, and I still think that’s a dream that stretched pretty far for the Cavs right now, especially with how Giannis Antetokounmpo’s meeting allegedly went with the Milwaukee Bucks and trying to figure out how that is going to end up and pan out for that team. So it’s a lot of different, interesting moving parts that are going to happen this summer. There will be a whole lot of moves as different teams are going to have to make changes due to the new cba. But I think it’s important to keep in mind that the Cavs are very, very confident in the core group of this team. Koby Altman has reiterated that on multiple occasions. More than likely, we know the three teams that are above the Cavs right now that will be continuing to be in contention for years to come. The Boston Celtics, the Indiana Pacers and the New York Knicks. So trying to put together a team that can counteract a whole lot of different options for all three of those teams, giving Kenny Atkinson the tools, the personnel to be able to make adjustments on the fly and be able to put together a team and a roster and a rotation that he feels confident in, can not only get past the Eastern Conference finals, but get to the NBA Finals. And that’s the different questions that are being asked currently internally by the Cavs as they look towards the offseason and look to see what is best for them now in the future. And best to win a championship that’s the most important and a city that is made based on the lone banner and Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley not being satisfied with letting that banner hang in solitude. Especially when we talk about Donovan Mitchell’s looming player option that we talked about at an abundance already in the offseason for this podcast and how that has triggered their clock to move a little bit quicker than they might have wanted to coming into the offseason. But the understanding is that Donovan Mitchell wants to get past the Eastern Conference semifinals, obviously, and Kenny Atkinson has some playoff demons that he wants to exercise himself. So this entire Cavs team, the organization, they want to win. They want to get to a chip, and they know that there might have to be changes to get that far. But with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wand and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become the Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtek. As I was mentioning, having different conversations with our subtexters throughout the game. This is the only platform that you can have daily communication with me, Chris and Jimmy to make sure that you’re getting not only insight, but our thoughts on given situations around the league throughout the off season. And remember that this podcast is going to be five days a week, even throughout the summertime. So don’t tap out with us just yet. Stay tuned. We got a lot of different content coming for you guys this summer. Interviews. We got different people coming on, different reporters, different analysts. And we want you to get all of that information and we’ll give you the insight before we get on the pod through a subtext. To get this information, sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com/cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the cast from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
Note: Artificial intelligence was used to help generate this story from the Cleveland Wine and Gold Talk Podcast by cleveland.com. Visitors to cleveland.com have asked for more text stories based on website podcast discussions.