CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Jimmy Watkins, and Chris Fedor highlight potential trade options for the Cavs, the importance of third teams in trades, and the pressure on the Cavs to improve their playoff performance.
Takeaways:
Minnesota lacks the necessary support for Anthony Edwards.
The importance of having players who can thrive in high-pressure situations has become apparent throughout this year’s playoffs.
Darius Garland’s presence could have changed the dynamics for Minnesota against OKC.
Trade activity is expected to reshape the NBA landscape this offseason.
Rudy Gobert’s effectiveness is being questioned in the current NBA context.
Cavs need to evaluate their roster for championship contention.
The gap between playoff contenders is widening, with OKC leading the way.
Third teams are crucial in facilitating trades in the NBA.
Trey Murphy III is a valuable trade target for the Cavs due to his scoring potential.
Cavs’ management faces pressure to make impactful roster decisions this offseason.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me today, Jimmy Watkins, Columnist, cleveland.com. Chris Fedor, Beat Reporter, Cavs cleveland.com so we are coming to you guys during the OKC Thunder, Minnesota Timberwolves game five of the Western Conference Finals. Well, guys, we’re coming to them a little bit earlier than expected because OKC has been thumping Minnesota throughout this contest. I think the lead was up to 37 at one point and when we joined the call, it was up to 30. So I wanted to get you guys thoughts not only on this series, but I also wanted to get your thoughts on on what this may mean for the Minnesota Timberwolves, even though they’ve reached the Western Conference finals twice and still have felt like they haven’t gotten over the hump that’s necessary. And to me, there’s one player that stands out and has continued to stand out, not just on the Timberwolves, but also when it comes to winning on other teams around the league. I’ll get to that in a second. But before I want to get your guys takes on this series and what’s.
Chris Fedor: Going on, I mean, it just became clear as the series was progressing that OKC was the better team. And like the one thing that you could hold against OKC or the one thing that you wondered about OKC was about their readiness, was about their championship DNA, was about their lack of experience. And like we talked about it as soon as the series against Denver ended and we actually talked about it as the series between OKC and Denver was going on, about how much that was going to benefit at them and how much better prepared for a playoff environment they were going to be or for a championship pursuit they were going to be because they were able to slay that dragon. That was a seminal moment in Oklahoma City Thunder basketball history. Being able to withstand everything that Denver threw it, being able to overcome, you know, Shea Gilgeous Alexander having a few games where he looked a little bit uncomfortable against the Nuggets, being able to overcome all of that championship DNA, all of that championship pedigree and a team that had been there, a team that had accomplished things that OKC was striving to accomplish, being able to slay that dragon, a huge moment in the growth of this Thunder team. And you just saw it, you just saw that confidence pick up. You saw that belief pick up. You saw, you saw that understanding of what it was going to take. That all increased as as this playoff run continued to progress and you got to a point in this series against Minnesota where you’re just like, yeah, OKC’s better. They’ve got more answers. They’ve got skill and toughness. They’ve got athleticism and enough shot distribution because Jalen Williams played really, really well and he provided that, that second scoring option for Shea, Gilgis Alexander. And if it wasn’t Jalen Williams, then it was Chet Holmgren who had a really good series against Minnesota. So I just felt like Minnesota was the team that didn’t have enough help for their star player, Anthony Edwards. Every time anybody but him put the ball on the floor, it was like a pack of hyenas going to the basketball. And nobody else on the Timberwolves knew how to handle that pressure. Nobody else was able to consistently step up and alleviate some of that responsibility and some of that load from Anthony Edwards. So, you know, as a seven game series goes on, you start to figure out, okay, like one team just doesn’t have enough and it’s going to take something more than what they’re capable of in order to hang in this series. And I think you saw that play itself out. OKC was the better team all season long. They were the better team going into the series. They were riding high after the win against Denver and they showed themselves to be a legitimate number one seed in the Western Conference. And I don’t think there’s a team in the NBA that can beat them four times in seven tries.
Jimmy Watkins: The Cavs point to this OKC thing and they’re like, this is what we hope happens to us eventually, right? First two rounds. The Memphis series was their Miami series. Not a real series, but that Denver series. The moment, Game seven, where they get over the top or even like past. I feel like Game 4 of the Timberwolves OKC series, where Minnesota’s offense is actually for a lot of the series it was Minnesota can’t score enough. There’s not enough creators out there. Next to Ant, there’s just so much, well, we need Mike Conley. We need 37 year old Mike Conley to create stuff. That’s just not the answer. I love Mike Conley. He will go down as one of the most underrated players of his generation because he played his entire career in the Western Conference and he missed out on some all star teams because of that. But he’s old now and he shouldn’t be this important on a Western Conference finals team. He is. And it’s amazing that he can still live up to it every now and again. But we’ll get into that conversation again later. They just need some more help from ant. Sure scoring. Julius Randle, what happened to you, buddy? Where you been? Where you been? That that would help.
Chris Fedor: But it was a 40 point game and Julius decided, that’s right, that’s right.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s like, all right now. But they just need someone else to. We got to the point where OKC could oriented his entire defense around Ants and it didn’t hurt the Timberwolves as much as it would hurt another more complete conference finalist. Although, you know, tip your captain, Nikhil Alexander, Walker, Jayden McDaniels, Dante DiVincenzo, those guys were awesome at different points of this series. But again, those are role players. You need another guy that you can count on, that kind of thing from every night. I just think the Cavs are waiting for this moment to push themselves over the top. And. And you know, Jalen Williams, who was stud in this series, was shaky at times in the Denver series. And then sometimes there are just moments where the light comes on and all of a sudden you’re not a young team anymore. You find your confidence Thunder in this series looked a lot like the regular season Thunder. Right. Something about particularly that it’s Denver. Denver has so much championship equity. Once you there’s a different kind of confidence that can be derived from beating a team like that. The tricky thing is for teams like OKC and the Cavs, you just don’t know until it happens. And every time it doesn’t happen, you have to spend time thinking about, well, is it ever going to happen? It hasn’t come close yet. And that’s a tricky spot for any young team to be in when there are other enticing avenues along the way.
Chris Fedor: I know this is a very simplistic viewpoint, and any kind of conversation about the Cavs or the NBA runs a lot deeper than what this does. But, you know, I was having a conversation with somebody earlier today on the phone, somebody in the NBA and I was looking at these four teams. Before tonight, it was Minnesota, Oklahoma City, New York and Indiana. And I just started saying to the person that I was talking to, I said, how many Cavs players seem like they would fit or they would thrive or they would survive if they were on one of these four teams? How many of these guys on the Cavs currently could play in a conference final series and perform the way that Aaron Neesmith has for Indiana, perform the way that Tyrese Halliburton has for Indiana? You know, do the things that Jalen Williams has done as a second scoring option for OKC. You know, Ant Jaden McDaniels, like how many of the Cavs players truly belong in a conference finals and they could handle that level of physicality, that level of tenacity, that level of pressure, that level of defense, that level of swarming defense from okc? And like I was asking myself that question and I was asking the person on the phone and I don’t feel like the list of roster players was as long as maybe the Cavs would want it to be. If you’re talking about competing for a championship, because that’s the conversation, right? You were the number one seed. 164 games. You’ve done what you needed to do from a regular season standpoint. President of basketball operations Kobe Altman said, we got to figure out this 16 game thing. Said we’ve got to take the next step. We’ve got to get over this playoff hump. Well, if you’re going to get over the playoff hump, you need guys who can play in playoff environment basketball. How many of the guys on the Cavs roster can be high level playoff basketball performers? What do we think that number is? Evan Mobley? Yes. Donovan Mitchell? Yes. Say Strus is a yes, but I don’t know that he’s a starter as a yes, you know what I’m saying?
Jimmy Watkins: Not a 35 minute yes.
Chris Fedor: Who’s surviving, who’s surviving, who’s thriving in in these playoff series that we’re talking about right now.
Jimmy Watkins: I was gonna say two and a half guys was my original answer with Streus being the half, that was going.
Chris Fedor: To be my answer. No, Darius.
Ethan Sands: No.
Jimmy Watkins: I can’t say that with certainty right now. Darius conversation is all projection. We just haven’t seen it yet. And I understand, as we’ve said a bajillion drillion times on this podcast, there are valid reasons for this year’s playoff shortcomings from him. There are valid reasons from last year’s playoff shortcomings from him. And then, okay, you want to say was his first time against the Knicks. He didn’t play great then either. I need to see you at least play well for one playoff run before I’m willing to stamp you as a conference finals type of guy. Think about him against that OKC defense man. And also, also, how badly are the Knicks getting cooked on defense against the Pacers right now? I got questions about Darius on both sides of the ball.
Ethan Sands: So I would turn this question to Chris, reconfigure it. Do you think Darius, if he is on the Minnesota Timberwolves right now, that that makes a difference in this series?
Chris Fedor: I do, because I think Minnesota is a team that needs the stuff that Darius does well. I don’t know how he would match up against Alex. Alex Caruso might have him in hell. He puts a lot of people in hell. Jalen Williams just might make somebody like Darius tap out because it’s so relentless, it’s so attacking. It’s 48 minutes. You can’t breathe, you can’t make a mistake. The passing lanes are closed, the windows are tighter. Every mistake you pay for against OKC guys, I think OKC is going to be around for a long, long time. And if there’s a team that has a chance to be this decade’s Golden State, it’s. It’s Oklahoma City. Not only are they not going anywhere, but they have the ability to improve and get better. Think about how much better Chet is going to be from this playoff run. And just the natural evolution of a player like him that is so versatile, so skilled, so dynamic at both ends of the floor. And then Jalen Williams, we’ve seen his rise turns into an all Star, turns into an all NBA performer. Casen Wallace is going to get better. And they have so much draft capital that if they were motivated to, they could take the biggest swing of any team this offseason. Everything this offseason in the NBA that people are preparing for is trades, because this free agent market is just doo doo it is. And there’s no team out there. Well, there’s one team out there with projectable cap space, and it’s Brooklyn. Who’s itching to go to Brooklyn, who’s thinking to themselves, hey, Let me take $30 million from the Nets. This version of the Nets. Not a lot of teams. And who would Brooklyn even want to spend that kind of money on based on this free agency class? There’s a real possibility, and I don’t think he’s going anywhere. They’re about to go to the NBA Finals, but there’s a real possibility that Myles Turner’s like the best free agent available. Kyrie’s not going anywhere. LeBron’s going into his player option. I don’t think James Harden’s going anywhere. So this free agency class is terrible. So a lot of teams around the NBA are looking at this, saying, all right, what’s the next best path to improving? Let’s trade. Can we go get Giannis? Can we go get Devin Booker? Can we go get Kevin Durant? How Much motivation is there for Utah to trade Lowry Markkanen. Is Andrew Wiggins available from Miami? Ish. I don’t know. Derrick White, is he available from Boston? That’s what these teams are asking themselves. And these teams are going to make calls to try and find out these answers. But the trade activity is what could change the landscape in the NBA. Potentially, if Oklahoma City was motivated enough, they could take the biggest swing because they’ve got the combination of young talent players, and some of those guys are more proven than others, and they’ve got the draft capital that’s going to be appealing to some of these other teams. So not only do they have the talent, the skill of the depth, the offense, the defense, to just like hang around as currently constituted and be the team in the NBA, the team in the Western Conference, but there is a pathway for them to become the dynastic Golden State warriors, where they said to themselves, we’re not going to settle. We’re going to keep trying to improve, keep pushing the envelope as much as we possibly can. Even after winning 73 games, even after all the qualifications that we’ve already come up with, even after all of the reasons why we lost the 2016 NBA Finals that went beyond the Cavs being really, really good. Like the things that they could excuse, the things that they could say to themselves, they said, let’s push this even further. Let’s see how much higher we can climb here. And they went out and got Kevin Durant and that was the ultimate trump card. If OKC wanted to, they could get Giannis and that would be the ultimate trump card because they would still have enough talent remaining to be a championship contending team. Some of these other teams that are, quote, unquote, Giannis teams, you have to ask yourself, all right, what’s going to be left over if we trade so much of this appealing talent that we’ve assembled here? Houston, for example, if we trade Shingoon and we trade Amend Thompson, what’s Giannis left to play with here in Houston? And does that get you to OKC level? Those are the kinds of questions. Maybe it doesn’t matter because they’re thinking about ticket sales and they’re thinking about all this other stuff. And with Giannis, you get a top five player in the NBA and you sacrifice what it takes in order to get him. But the broader point is everybody has to play catch up. Now to the Oklahoma City Thunder, that includes the Minnesota Timberwolves back to back conference finals. But I think they’re one of these teams out There, that’s primed to make a drastic change. They’ve gone ballsy before. Right. They went ballsy with Rudy Gobert and everybody laughed at them and it led to success. Not a championship, but back to back conference finals appearance. They got ballsy with Kat and it led to Julius Randle and another conference finals appears. I think they’re a team that’s willing to get ballsy this offseason and they probably have to in order to stay at least somewhat in the rearview mirror of Oklahoma City.
Ethan Sands: So a lot of topics to go into there, Chris, and I want to take it all the way back to the beginning of what you were talking about with Darius Garland. I do not think he makes that big of a difference, especially in this series of the Western Conference finals between Minnesota and okc. We saw how he was debilitated against the Pacers and the OKC Thunder have two, you could argue three, all defensive players at the point of attack.
Jimmy Watkins: Lou Dorsey was at like 60% max against pacers.
Ethan Sands: That’s fine. That’s fine. You can make that point better than Mike Conley? Yes. He’s better than Mike Conley.
Chris Fedor: Is he better than Dante DiVincenzo? Yes. All of those changes the equation. Putting Darius next to Anthony Edwards puts an opposing defense in more of a bind all of a sudden. They have to make different decisions all of a sudden. And look, it probably doesn’t make a difference with OKC because OKC is just to borrow a term from the Golden State warriors area, they’re just light years ahead of people at this point in time. With the number of capable defenders that they can throw at these star players on the perimeter, they. Throughout the course of a seven game series, it’s just unfair. But in most cases, it makes these defenses have to make a decision. All right, if we’re going to put Caruso on Ant, then that means Caruso can’t be on Darius. So in theory you have a lesser. In theory it’s a lesser defender. Now the gap between Caruso and Dort, it’s probably negligible. The gap between Caruso and. Because it’s unfair. Like they just have too many guys that can just pester the hell out of teams. But if we like flip it to New York or Indiana, there’s a different level of drop off. Right. And I think when you put two dynamic guards and what did Minnesota need? They needed a dynamic guard who could organize the offense, who could take some of that responsibility from Anthony Edwards. And you just don’t know how to quantify how that frees up a player like Anthony Edwards, right? We’ve talked so much about how the presence of Donovan Mitchell frees up Darius Garland and it does. Like it’s a benefit for Darius to play alongside Donovan. It would be a benefit for Ant to play alongside somebody who’s not Mike Conley.
Jimmy Watkins: With the CAT era, there was not a lot of defenders. There’s a chance that Darius being on the court, if he has it going, you might have to take Ant’s guy and put him on Darius. That was rarely the case with Townsend amp because they’re such a different players I want to say two quick things as it pertains to the Cavs based on Minnesota okc. First, if Minnesota needs to take a hard look at their roster after two straight Western Conference finals appearances, what does that say about the Cavs after two straight five game losses in the second round of the Eastern Conference? And then to highlight that point, Eastern Conference Western Conference, we’re talking about winning a championship here, right? Like the threshold for staying above the second apron is you need to be a championship contender, not just a conference finals contender, not just a win your conference contender. You could argue, and I’ll hear you out, that when your conference contender you are a championship contender because you don’t know what’s going to happen on the other side of the bracket and who knows what happens once you get in a single seven game series. What we’re seeing here out West Take however far the Cavs need to take a step up to get on par with the Pacers and the Knicks and whoever else ends up being in that top of the east conversation next year. It’s going to be a sad conversation frankly, without Boston at full strength and then turn that up a couple of notches. I think the Pacers could end up giving OKC a competitive series. But you’re going to have to turn that jump up another couple notches to beat a team like okc, because as we’ve already established, they’re starting a couple notches ahead of everyone else. Light years ahead. As Chris said. They’re also no one is even close to as well positioned as them to withstand all of the penalties that are coming their way. You can cut off one of their limbs, they’re just like a. Like an alien. They’re just going to grow it back. Whether it’s they’ve got Nikolatovic just stashed waiting for next year because he’s been hurt.
Chris Fedor: Who knows?
Jimmy Watkins: Who knows what Usman Jang could become? Who knows what the other 17 draft picks or whatever it is they have over the next five years will bring to them. They’re just so far ahead of. They’re even further ahead than you think they are right now.
Chris Fedor: We talked about this on yesterday’s podcast too, with the fake Darius Garland trades. And I don’t want to rehash this, but I think Minnesota is a team and I think there’s a logical fit there between the two sides. I think Minnesota needs a player like Darius. They wanted Darius in 2019. They tried to trade up in the Cav spot to take Darius. They moved up, they were sitting there sixth and the Cavs went with Darius and they had to end up with Jarrett Culver and that was a disaster. But the whole goal was try and trade up to get Darius. So they have been a Darius team for years. And that style of player for, for all of the questions that you have about his defense, what he would bring to them offensively and what they need offensively he brings. So I think there’s a fit there. It becomes tricky financially. But as somebody said earlier today, yes, the Cavs are in a tough situation. As a potential second apron team, they would just have to get creative and bring in a third team or a fourth team. And we see that done all the time, all the time in the NBA. Now you have to make it worthwhile for that third or fourth team. You have to incentivize them and maybe that means some future draft capital. Not first round picks because the Cavs don’t have those, but second round picks. Or maybe you have a young, talented player that would appeal to one of those teams as kind of like a sweetener to get involved as a third team or a fourth team. But it just requires the Cavs to be creative. But the deal that I was kicking around earlier today on the trade machine was Darius garland For Jaden McDaniels, Dante DiVincenzo and Terence Shannon Jr. Financially, it is very, very, very close thoughts.
Ethan Sands: So here’s my take from that I was talking about to begin the podcast. I don’t think Rudy Gobert is a winner. I don’t think Rudy Gobert is going to ever be able to help a team get past the hump, get to where they want to go. NBA Finals, right? Because we know that his tenure with Donovan Mitchell in Utah, they couldn’t get past the Western Conference semifinals. Even now, of course, they get to the Western Conference finals back to back years. Even before then, two seasons before then, they weren’t able to get past the Western Conference first round. And then sure, he’s going to turn 33 this summer and his defense is still viable. It still is a problem for certain offenses, but he gives you nothing.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s a problem for literally every single offense. Just want to throw that out there.
Chris Fedor: He is the defensive system. He is a defensive system.
Ethan Sands: Correct. And I think he got exploited particularly in this OKC series, even against a team that didn’t utilize the three point shot as much as potentially more centers are going to do down the line. And obviously Chet Holmgren is a great stretch seven footer who can also get into the interior, all these things. But the OKC Thunder used that against Rudy to. To get into the paint. Because when he’s not there, Minnesota’s defense on the inside is distraught. Right. So I would say that I think if Minnesota wants to get where they want to go, obviously past the Western Conference finals, the NBA Finals, potentially, you need to go get off of Rudy Gobert. And Rudy Gobert next year is going to be making $35 million and then 36 and a half going into 2026, 2027 before a player option in 2027, 2028 sounds really familiar for a guy that we know just a little bit lower prices. Darius Garland is going to be making next year $39.5 million. 2026 is $42 million. Jared Allen, on the other hand, is going to be making around $28 million a year. And I think there’s the potential for a. And I think that option because Minnesota has seen the importance of Jaden McDaniels, have seen the potential in Dante DiVincenzo as one of their spacers, one of their three point shooters. And then Shannon Jr wasn’t bad in this series either against OKC even though he was playing more free than probably anybody else on their roster. So I think more importantly, the Minnesota Timberwolves have to look at Rudy Gobert and what he’s not able to do anymore and what he has contributed on the defensive end. But how the league is going to change and how that could impact them as well.
Jimmy Watkins: Can I say this though? Your defense falling apart the second Rudy has to step outside the paint is not a commentary on Rudy. It’s a commentary on everyone else on your team. It’s a commentary on what happens when you take Rudy Gobert away. And so now we’re going to try to take Rudy Gobert away permanently take.
Ethan Sands: Him away and get a better offensive center.
Chris Fedor: So I guess better offensive center.
Jimmy Watkins: I think he’s talking about Jared Allen. Jared Allen is. Did we forget what Jared. What happened to Jared Allen the last two games of the Pacers series? Rudy Gobert is having more of those games, but Jared Allen’s still going to have some of those games. And I love Jared Allen as a defensive guy. It’s levels to this. Rudy Gobert will be a Hall of Famer because of his defense. Him and Ben Wallace have won the most defensive player of the year awards ever. I get it. I also don’t want to pay a guy $40 million who’s going to give me two points and three rebounds in playoff games every sixth night. That’s not great. But I would argue he’s a foundational reason why the Timberwolves got this far as well. Obviously life changes in the playoffs when you’re not getting guarded by freaking Jared Vanderbilt Rudy Hashimura in the first round anymore. We understand that, but you take away Rudy. I don’t know what the Minnesota Timberwolves identity is anymore. It’s Aunt do stuff. And like your rib protector is Nas Naz Reed. Well, I guess it’d be Jared Allen. We’re talking about Jared Allen, but Jared Allen’s not the mistake eraser at large that Rudy Gobert is. He’s good. He’s good, but he has. Jared Allen has granted, never been on a great team before the Cavs, but never existed in an elite defense that didn’t also have Evan Mobley. Chris, do you want to go on that on the Go Bear thing?
Chris Fedor: Yeah. Just really quick. The other thing is Jared Allen is not enough of an improvement as an offensive player for a team like Minnesota compared to Rudy Gobert. I mean, the difference between Rudy as an offensive threat and Jared is an offensive threat is almost negligible.
Jimmy Watkins: Jared can catch the ball. That’s a helpful. Rudy’s gotten better at that. That’s not as fair as it used to be. But like he’s got better hands. That’s important in his job. But I get what you’re saying. Also, why do the Cavs want Rudy Gobert or are we taking a third team wants Rudy?
Ethan Sands: Go send Rudy somewhere else. What I’m thinking more so is just the offensive improvement is field goal percentage. Right. You’re able to throw Jared Allen the ball and not immediately question what the hell he’s going to do with it.
Chris Fedor: Jared.
Ethan Sands: Rudy Gobert has that Jared Allen average.
Chris Fedor: In the good enough offensive player to help Minnesota the way that Minnesota needs. Nope. They need a dynamic playmaker. They need a dynamic on ball creator.
Ethan Sands: You also have to ask more of Anthony Edwards on The defensive end, too.
Jimmy Watkins: Ant does a lot already.
Ethan Sands: I feel like he does, but he has lapses in focus. And we all know this, right? Like Anthony Edwards, when he locks in, is one and one of the best players in the league, but he has the same issues as Darius Garland. If the offense isn’t going, the defense isn’t going to be there as much as it usually is.
Jimmy Watkins: Anthony Edwards has the same problem that every S tier superstar has, which is they ask so much of him on one end that he. It is physically unfair to ask him to match that, that intensity with defensive effort. Max all the time.
Chris Fedor: And think about what it means for him potentially to be off the ball a little bit more. Think about what it means to him potentially to have another creator, another reliable creator that can steal some of those possessions, that can alleviate some of that responsibility, that can bring that usage rate down a little bit on the offensive end of the floor so that he has more energy, more focus, less responsibility on offense allows him to have potentially more responsibility on defense. We see it all the time.
Ethan Sands: I hear you. I’m talking about superstars. I’m talking about guys like Shay Gilder’s Alexander that are able to handle the load offensively and then defensively, sure, you’re not number. Sure you’re not the number one defender on that side of the ball, but he still was almost in between.
Jimmy Watkins: Or number three or number four.
Ethan Sands: Correct? Correct. But he still was doing his job. He was still doing his job. Anthony Edwards isn’t being asked to guard the best player on the opposing team. J. McDaniels is getting that. And then you have Nas Reid guarding the best big. Right. So there’s this comparison that we’re doing. I’m a big Anthony Edwards fan, but why are we letting him not have the same value as a superstar for. For Shay, Jose Alexander? Right. Because Shay.
Chris Fedor: Because it’s early and the team is different defensively.
Ethan Sands: Sure. And I’m saying you need more consistency from Ant on the defensive end. And I think Shai, who almost led the league in steals at one point, was not necessarily guarding the best player, but he was playing in the gaps. He was being intelligent on that end of the floor to maximize his energy, get out in transition and get easy buckets that way. So you didn’t have to work so hard in the half court. That’s the portion that I was talking about. Not necessarily how much harder Shay has to work on either end of the floor, but knowing how to use your energy and disperse it so you don’t have to Use it as much at each burst. It’s more so figuring out how to spread it out so you’re not over exhausted.
Jimmy Watkins: This is a good talking point, I think, for the trade that Chris brought. I think you guys are both making valid points about Ant, but I don’t want to get bogged down in that. My question with any Darius trade is then what happens to Donovan Mitchell in the playoffs? We have just watched him expend, I mean, unprecedented amounts of energy trying to generate offense for the Cavs. As much as we all love Evan Mobley and I’ve been banging on the table for him to get the ball more in these playoff games, I still don’t know that he is or will be soon the kind of guy that I just throw the ball to and say, this is your possession, you. You’re going to make that shot. Like when we’re saying get him the ball more, it’s get him the ball more and pick and roll. Get him good matchups, get him active, use him as a screener, that sort of, that sort of stuff. And throw, throw him the ball in the high post, throw the ball on the baseline, let him face up. But Donovan Mitchell is doing a lot of dribbling in this post. Darius Garland world. Donovan Mitchell is doing a lot of table setting. Donovan Mitchell, the shooting guard superstar, score first. You know, your playmaking is secondary to what everything else you do at the offensive end is one thing. Donovan Mitchell as your head of the snake, so to speak. And that’s not to say he’s not their best player. Donovan Mitchell as the thing that everything like a heliocentric figure basically like he was in this playoff series. That’s a, that’s a big ask for him. And I, you know, I like the signs that I’ve seen from your Jaden McDaniels in these playoffs. Very encouraging. I like Dante DiVincenzo as a secondary creator, but like more as like a attack closeouts creator. I’m never asking Dante to beat his man one on one. I think that as. As much as you could argue that, you know, I’m not sure Darius is the, is the number two in terms of usage rate to be the guy that, that gets the Cavs over the top. I also do think trading him leaves a serious dearth of playmaking in a way that concerns me about the Cavs offense going forward. So it’s a tricky needle we’re trying to thread here with the Darius trade.
Ethan Sands: I don’t know how this would work out for, for the Cavs in The best case scenario. But we did mention Brooklyn and I wanted to know from you guys if you think that they’re a, a potential third team to throw into this conversation and see what they could get in that conversation from them as a third team recipient and sending maybe Rudy over there or sending whoever Chris mentioned, Shannon, Katie, McDaniels, all of them. And trying to figure out which area all teams feel like is most beneficial. Who do you think is the most viable option as a third team option for the Cavs to partner with this summer if they’re going to make a big team deal?
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean I think you first and foremost look guys at the teams that have projected salary cap space or at least the teams that aren’t apron teams. Brooklyn comes to mind. Detroit comes to mind. Although Detroit has decisions to make. They obviously want to bring back Dennis Schroeder and they want to bring back Malik Beasley and like if they do those two things, a big chunk of their own salary cap space is going to be swallowed up at that point in time. So I think you look there. What interest does Chicago have in potentially getting involved in a three team deal? They have a decision to make on what they’re going to do with Josh Giddey, who’s a restricted free agent, but they have projected salary cap space. Memphis kind of has projected salary cap space, although they seems like they’re motivated to renegotiate with Jaren Jackson Jr. And that changes the math for them a little bit. But I think the four teams that stand out specifically, and then you start looking at young rebuilding teams that aren’t going to be active in free agency for improvements because it’s too early in the process to go out and be big free agency spenders. Utah, Washington, see what’s up with Portland, anything that you’re willing to do there, Those kinds of teams, they are the ones that stand out to me as potential to bring in as a third team. Maybe New Orleans, who knows what they’re doing. They got a lot of their own decisions that they got to make. But I think there are enough teams out there that you could entice to pull into these deals. Even if it’s a four team deal. I think those are possible in today’s NBA for sure. Just means the Cavs are limited and they have restrictions. It just means they’ve got to be.
Jimmy Watkins: Creative, possible, I would say necessary in some of these configurations, especially like Minnesota. We’re talking about two second aprony teams between Minnesota and the Cav, by the way. I just Want to. Like when we’re talking trades on the pod or otherwise. Yeah, we’re talking mostly framework.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. General.
Jimmy Watkins: None of us, none of us are pretending to know exactly what the. Whatever dollar and cent decimal place matches up with. Just. Just think like the lamest. Like. Okay, we’re. Let’s brainstorm ideas for the Cavs offseason. Then someone swings in our ropes. Well, you know, they’re a second April team, so actually they can’t do this, this, that and that. Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for that. We do this. We do this for a living. We know that. We know that. And we’re just talking general ideas.
Chris Fedor: General.
Jimmy Watkins: General ideas, general framework, general player archetypes that we think could fit the Cavs needs. And yes, if you need a third team, you go recruit them. Yes. If you need a fourth team, you go recruit them. Yes. And I’m a second round pick. Yes. Send them a frickin Craig Porter Jr. Whatever you got to do. That’s no shot at Craig Porter Jr. He’s just a young player that was at the top of my mind who could be up in line for more minutes. It’s a compliment. How about that? Craig Porter Jr. That’s just my two cents there.
Chris Fedor: I would say that there’s a New Orleans framework out there too, guys, either for Jared Allen or for Darius Garland. And New Orleans has a decision to make on what they’re going to do with their roster. What are they going to do with Zion? What’s going on with Dejounte Murray? Do they want Dejounte Murray to be the primary ball handler? Do they think of him more as a secondary ball handler?
Jimmy Watkins: Do they not still have a decision to make on who their general manager is going to be?
Chris Fedor: They’ve got a lot of decisions that they need to make.
Ethan Sands: Yeah, they do.
Chris Fedor: But I think there’s a general framework. If New Orleans is motivated, I think a deal involving Trey Murphy at the very least gets the Cavs attention. Would New Orleans be willing to do that? I don’t know. But if we’re talking about the Cavs potentially moving one of their core four players, maybe even two of their core four players, they have to find a deal out there that they’re willing to say yes to. Right. That they’re even willing to consider that kind of offer. They’re even willing to listen to that. So some teams going to have to make it worth it for the Cavs to even consider moving Darius or Jared Allen. Trey Murphy would make them consider it. A deal involving Trey Murphy. The general framework With Trey Murphy coming back, that gets the Cavs attention. That certainly gets my attention. That gets the Cavs attention. And maybe, who knows, they could swindle Jose Alvarado out of that. To get somebody that’s pesky, somebody that’s feisty, somebody that has playoff level toughness. That can be the CAVS version of TJ McConnell or the Cavs version of low calorie Alex Crusoe, maybe the Costco version of Alex Caruso. That type of player, player I think would certainly appeal to the gals. And if it’s not Trey Murphy, Herb Jones is certainly there too. Those kinds of players, at the very least they get the Cavs attention. Trey Murphy McDaniels, by the way, would get the Cavs attention to. In a potential Minnesota deal.
Jimmy Watkins: I think I’d go Trey Murphy over Jaden McDaniels just because the shooting, the shooting, the scoring, the. There’s also just seems like. I’m not saying Jaden Daniels relationship. There’s more, there’s more. I know that there’s more to be explored. Jaden McDaniels too. But like with Trey Murphy has barely ever been on a normal basketball team. Trey Murphy has. It always seemed like Trey Murphy could be doing more. Like he’ll just have these random 40 point explosions and you’re just like huh, that’s in there. That’s interesting. I’d like to see a little bit more of him being featured. This was the first year in his career he ever had higher than 20% usage rate. He went for 21 a game on pretty efficient. Again, the least normal basketball season of all time. The that he was a part of with the New Orleans Pelicans. But like that’s a guy who, even though I’m, I’m not.
Chris Fedor: We.
Jimmy Watkins: We certainly haven’t seen it yet. He would have to play it on prove a lot on the playoff stage as well. I think there’s some more shot creation in there. There’s. There’s more meat on the bone with Trey Murphy than what we’ve seen so far. Which by the way is already a good amount.
Chris Fedor: The other thing that is always interesting to me when it comes to NBA and trades is new eyes and a fresh perspective changes some things, right? I mean think about Dallas. They get new ownership. There’s a different view of Luka Doncic than there was previously Mark Cuban, Very, very different in terms of how he viewed Luka versus the new guy. We’re talking about newness in Minnesota. Fresh perspective, fresh set of eyes. We’re talking about newness in New Orleans. They don’t have the same ties to some of these players as previous management would where previous ownership would. So sometimes, guys, you can capitalize on those kinds of situations.
Ethan Sands: Are we throwing out the, the possibility to get Cam Johnson? Are we bringing that back into conversation?
Chris Fedor: I don’t think that’s ever out when it comes to the Cavs, given how much they have loved Cam Johnson for about five, six years now. But I, I think the need for somebody like him, not that they went with DeAndre Hunter, not that it was a two thing DeAndre versus Cam Johnson, but in a way, DeAndre Hunter filled that potential void a little bit. I think Cavs, I don’t ever just like rule it out because when you’re talking about two way wings, playable wings for playoff environment, you can never have enough of those. So even with DeAndre, it’s just to me like the motivation behind Cam Johnson and if the Cavs would be willing to match the asking price of the Brooklyn Nets, I think that level of motivation has kind of. I don’t want to say that it’s gone away completely, but I think it’s lessened for sure.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s why you make them a third team or a fourth team, so you don’t necessarily have to be the one answering that asking price. Right. And you still end up getting what you might want. And Chris, you were, you said exactly what I was thinking in terms of how I figured Cavs fans would react to that statement is, well, Chris, we have six foot five guys galore. We will go for Cam Johnson any day of the week. But obviously Brooklyn is a team that is not necessarily looking to rebuild, but looking to find their identity. Are they going to come off of Nick Claxton? Are they going to come off of Ken Johnson? Are they going to build around whoever, right? And that becomes the question is who are they going to build around? What are they going to get that makes it feel like they’re going to do this or are they going to go all in on this tanking, even though the year or two have done that might have already passed them. So I think it’s interesting, all of these different teams have their different thought processes going into the summer, but everybody needs something and everybody knows, and as Chris was mentioning, everybody knows that they have to catch up to the OKC Thunder and some teams have a longer road to do that. Jimmy, do you have something to add before we get out of here?
Jimmy Watkins: I was just, I was trying to find like Sean Marks has had a crazy run as their gm, right?
Chris Fedor: Yes.
Jimmy Watkins: When did he start? Because he was there before they got Katie and Kyrie. Then he went through all that. Then they, Katie and Kyrie lit their franchise on fire and now we’re kind of back in like weird misfit toys land. But we want to be back in Starland, but we don’t necessarily know how to get there. And Cam, like if we’re going to get into Starland, we better keep Cam Johnson and Nick Claxton. Otherwise what else do we have to offer? I guess Cap Space is always everyone’s best friend in that, in that situation. But man, he’s Sean Marks has had an interesting run as the head of the Brooklyn Nets.
Chris Fedor: I do think we have to point out because some of the subtexters were sending these texts after yesterday’s podcast. Yes, there is a real chance that the Cavs run this thing back. But even Max Stru said during his end of season wrap up this roster will not be the same because the reality of the NBA is what happened last off season for the Cavs where they brought back 13 of their 14 regular rotation players. They that is a rarity in today’s NBA. And it becomes more complicated in the situation that the Cavs are now stepping into with the second apron, with the luxury tax, with the decision that they have to make on Isaac Okoro and if they can find somebody to take his contract with. Keeping the core four together. Look, when the Cavs made the deal for DeAndre Hunter at the trade deadline, they almost said to themselves they they still have an out because they have talented players that are going to interest teams. But they said to themselves if we keep it all together and add DeAndre to that, we’re okay with that. That was also before they lost in the second round of the playoffs to an Indiana team that I don’t know that the Cavs saw coming and they certainly exited the playoffs earlier than anticipated. And they had president of basketball operations Kobe Altman Blake bluntly saying during his end of season wrap up, we’ve got to figure out this 16 game thing. We’ve got to figure out how to be a better playoff level basketball team. And sometimes the answer to that question, if that’s the evaluation that the Cavs are going to have this, this off season, everybody’s going to have to look in the mirror and say how do I get better? How do I get better? How do I get better? Same thing when it comes to Kobe Altman, you better believe that Dan Gilbert is putting everybody in this organization up to the mirror and saying to himself, if we’re going to be a second apron team and I’m going to cut a huge luxury tax check, like, I better have a team here that I believe can win a championship. I better have a team here of guys on this roster that maybe performed a little bit better than what happened in the Indiana series, maybe performed a little bit better than what I saw two years ago against the Boston Celtics. So Dan Gilbert, he always looms. But if that’s the evaluation that everybody is undergoing here this offseason, then Kobe Altman in the front office, they have to ask themselves, okay, the next step for this organization, if it’s about figuring out the 16 game thing, does that require external improvement? And if that requires external improvement and we’re limited in the things that we can do, especially when it comes to free agency, what’s the other pathway to that? We don’t have a first round pick. The 49th pick in the draft and the 58th pick in the draft is not going to lead to that kind of improvement. So what’s the other pathway? So I’m not saying that the Cavs are definitely going to make these kinds of deals this offseason. There’s a real chance that they run it back, but they’re at a point, the way that they have spoken, the things that they have said since the end of this season, it’s about evaluating this thing and it’s about exploring the many, many options that are in front of them and trying to figure out what the best one is.
Jimmy Watkins: I think there’s a bigger Dan Gilbert conversation behind another pad. I’ll just say two things, two quick things. On our way out here, we just got to figure out the 16 game thing. He says, oh, you mean the thing that determines entire legacies and the direction of franchises, that 16 game thing. That’s it. That’s all you gotta do. You are great at the regular season. You figured that part out. That’s great. This, this next thing, though, it also reminded me when Chris was saying that about something else that Kobe said last week and he said if we were going to overreact, we would have done it last year after the Celtics thing. But wouldn’t that mean this year is just reacting? Right, Reacting. I don’t know. Can you overreact? Can you overreact two years in a row?
Ethan Sands: I don’t think they overreacted last year. I think that’s what he was saying. He was, he was saying they didn’t overreact.
Jimmy Watkins: He’s saying the opportunity was there for them to overreact.
Ethan Sands: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: So if that. If last year was the year where doing something would have been overreacting, then I would argue that this year is just reacting.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, reacting. Reacting to what you saw. And there’s a real possibility that you could convince yourself that you could become a better basketball team without Jared Allen. Right. There’s a real possibility that you could convince yourself, based on the offers that you’re getting or the packages that you believe are available to you, that you could become a better basketball team without Darius. That’s not overreacting. I don’t think that’s overreacting. I think that’s just judging everything that’s in front of you. I talked about this on the previous podcast. Boston traded Marcus Smart. Are you kidding me? I know it was for kd, but Golden State traded core player Harrison Barnes, somebody that they tanked to get, somebody who is a starter on a team that won 73 games. I know that they’ve dubbed it the Core Four, but there are levels to this. As Jimmy likes to say, there are levels to this. Donovan Nadarius not equals. Evan Mobley and Jared Allen not equals. When you’re talking about the pecking order of the core four, and sometimes when you’re talking about trying to win a championship, it means painful decisions. Do you think Boston wanted to give up Marcus Smart and everything that he meant to that organization? That’s a painful type move. But guess what? They brought in somebody that allowed them to take that next. And it was probably hard to sit there and say, oh, we’re going to become a better basketball team by trading away the heart and soul of our team and the defensive player of the year and somebody who’s been through all of these playoff wars. They got better. They found ingredients to the championship puzzle that we’re missing. Right? They did.
Ethan Sands: You know another team that made a move this year and ended up getting better? Okc. And now they’re heading to the NBA Finals for the first time since 2012. And Shay Gildas Alexander became first player to win the NBA Most Valuable Player award and play in the NBA Finals in the same season since Golden State’s Stephen Curry in 2015, 2016, to bring this full circle. It’s funny in one sense, because we talked about predicting the series on each side Eastern Western Chris before they began, and talked about how the potential for Minnesota in New York to end up in the Finals and. And get to figure out who had the best trade, who made the biggest move, who made the best decision. In reality, they both ended up more than likely coming up short. But we can’t be too sure about that until Indiana.
Chris Fedor: No, we can be pretty sure about that.
Ethan Sands: Three one series lead tomorrow, Eastern Conference Finals Game five in New York Work. We’ll talk to you guys after that one as well, but for this one, that’ll do it. With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, Jimmy and myself by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com calves and click click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be saying we out. I.
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