CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins delve into the potential trade scenarios for the Cavs, particularly focusing on the hypothetical acquisition of the No. 1 overall pick from the Dallas Mavericks.
Takeaways:
ESPN’s Hypothetical Four-Team Trade Proposal: The Cavaliers would receive the 2025 #1 overall draft pick (potentially Cooper Flagg), along with Javon Carter, Gabe Vincent, Maxi Kleber, PJ Washington, and Daniel Gafford. The Mavericks would get Donovan Mitchell and several future Lakers draft picks, while the Lakers would receive Jarrett Allen and the Bulls would get Dalton Knecht, Caleb Martin, and future second-round picks.
The Defensive Potential of Mobley-Flagg Pairing: A Mobley-Flagg combination could be an impressive defensive frontcourt, with both players offering elite rim protection and switchability across multiple positions.
Championship Window vs. Future Potential: The Cavaliers are in win-now mode, balancing immediate championship contention with building for the future, particularly regarding acquiring Cooper Flagg.
Evan Mobley’s Development and Potential: There’s optimism about Evan Mobley’s development trajectory, with potential to enter the MVP conversation within the next five years.
The Leadership Void Without Donovan Mitchell: Trading Donovan Mitchell would create a leadership vacuum on the Cavaliers, questioning whether Mobley or Garland possess the “alpha” mentality needed.
Kenny Atkinson’s Role in Mobley’s Development: Kenny Atkinson’s role is important in Evan Mobley’s continued development, with the goal of helping Mobley become a top player in the league.
Mobley’s Mental Evolution as the Next Step: Evan Mobley’s next developmental step is more mental than skill-based, needing a level of belief that he’s ready to be the man.
The Challenge of Mitchell Relinquishing Control: There’s a delicate balance of Donovan Mitchell potentially ceding offensive control to facilitate Evan Mobley’s growth.
Cavs’ Second-Round Draft Prospects: The Cavaliers are focusing on more experienced college players in the upcoming NBA Draft, such as Alijah Martin, Johni Broome, Tyrese Proctor, and Cliff Omoruyi.
Koby Altman’s Draft Decision-Making Process: Koby Altman’s draft process is heavily influenced by relationships and trusted information sources, particularly Team USA Basketball connections and trusted coaching staff.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me as usual. You know you love them. Chris fedor, Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com’s best and we’re coming to you. As we dive into everything summertime and as our listeners and readers might have caught on to, there’s not a whole lot to talk about, especially in the days leading up to the NBA Finals. And ESPN even may have thought that much. So they went ahead and dropped a bombshell of an article that more than likely was just putting some ideas out in the air. It was an article that went into potential draft trades that in this case, one of the options and offers that ESPN put together would send the number one overall pick for the 2025 draft to the Cleveland Cavaliers, potentially giving them Cooper Flag. So before we get into the trade and the thoughts of our fellas, let’s just dive into how this trade was broken up by espn. The Cavs form a new star trio in Flag, Mobley and Garland. That is the subhead. The Dallas Mavericks, the Cleveland Cavaliers, the Los Angeles Lakers and the Chicago Bulls would all be involved in this trade. The Dallas Mavericks would Get Donovan Mitchell, 2031 first round pick via the Lakers, 2028 first round swap via the Lakers and the 2030 first round swap via the Lakers. The Cavs would get, as I mentioned, the number one pick in this draft, Javon Carter and Gabe Vincent. Forwards Maxi Cleaver and PJ Washington Owens. Also center Daniel Gafford. The Lakers would get Jared Allen and the Bulls would get Dalton Connect and Caleb Martin along with 2026 second round pick via the Cavaliers, 2027 second round pick via the Nuggets and 2028 second round pick via the Cleveland Cavaliers. Guys, as I mentioned, this is an interesting trade and very, very unlikely as it has been reported already that the Dallas Mavericks do not plan on trading the number one overall pick. But we know who runs the show over there and we cannot leave anything up for grabs without talking about it. Jimmy, I’m going to start with you today. What do you think about this hypothetical trade?
Jimmy Watkins: I mean, I think it’s a fun thought exercise. Obviously the Cavs don’t want to trade Donovan Mitchell. Obviously the Mavericks don’t want to trade Cooper Flag. I heard many Lakers first round picks attached in this trade for Jared Allen. I don’t think the Lakers want to do that in a vacuum. Would I trade Donovan Mitchell for Cooper Flag? Is an interesting conversation. I’m just going to accept the premise because I’m thinking now my brain started going, you know, if it’s Evan Mobley for Cooper Flag, that kind of. I think you’re swapping out one guy at one position. Another. I don’t know if Cooper Flag is ever going to be a full time five in the NBA, but he can be a rim protector defensive guy. Whereas you, you lose Donovan Mitchell, you’re taking a step back. I believe wholeheartedly in Cooper Flag, but you lose Donovan Mitchell. This Cavs team has taken a step back. The there’s no two ways around that now. Your future is fascinating and very exciting. And Evan Mobley and Cooper Flag as a defensive tan. You think Evan Mobley and Jared Allen are good? My goodness, my goodness. Those are two guys that can guard every single position on the floor. That can be big time help. You’re not. Again, I don’t know the Cooper Flag is ever going to get to the point where you can play full time 5, maybe some backup 5 in smaller lineups, but that’s pretty interesting to me. And if Cooper Flag, he’s already shown some, some interesting signs on the shooting side of things, on the shot creation side of things. That’s basically the difference between him becoming an All Star and a superstar is how the jump shot and the handle progress. That’s worth chewing on. At the end of the day though, the Cats are trying to win a championship. And the second you let an ounce of realism enter your brain on this one, it just doesn’t make any sense at all for them. It would be great for the Mavs because they need someone to fill that Kyrie Irving spot. They need someone to dribble. As we’ve talked about, anyone could dribble. Brandon Williams. Brandon Williams was doing a lot of dribbling at the end of the year for the Dallas Mavericks, so I think Don would be a great fit there. Anthony Davis is playoff ready. The Mavs would be one of many championship contenders out West. But yeah, it’s more of a thought exercise than there is any basis in reality here. And I think it’s fun to think about, but at the end of the day, I just don’t think I could do it.
Chris Fedor: It is fascinating to me because Cavs have so many different people in their front office, but they do have somebody who’s responsible for kind of looking toward the future. He’s their strategy guy, he’s their long term planning guy and I think he would love this. I mean, the long term for the Cavs with Cooper Flag and Evan Mobley together. And like, what you think the future is, it’s kind of the mystery box. Ooh, could it be? I take my son all the time to Target, and they have these things that come in little cylinders and they’re called mashems. And they’re either like Paw patrol or superhero or they could be Mario. And there’s five in a set and then there’s one mystery one. And he always wants the mystery one. He wants to find out who the mystery one is. So the mystery box for the Cavs, the upside of Evan Mobley and Cooper Flag together, oh, my God. I mean, that is really, really, really enthralling. You’re gonna have a situation here in August, September, and. And the annual GM survey is going to come out. And one of the questions always on that survey is, if you could pick one player to build your franchise around, who would you pick? Be ready for Evan Mobley to get votes and be ready for Cooper Flag to get votes. And we were talking about two of the five players, probably WEMBY’s in that conversation, talking about two of the five Players, two of the 10 players that most people in the NBA would say that they want to build their franchise around based on age, based on contract, based on resume, already based on pedigree, based on upside. I mean, that one would have me thinking, how could you not. How could you not envision the possibilities down the road of what that could potentially be and how formidable that could be once the window for Oklahoma City vanishes or closes? You know what I mean? Like, hey, we’re ready now. Might not be ready today, but when that window closes for OKC or for Boston, you’re like, hey, our windows popped open. But. But I think Jimmy said it. This team is competing for championships. President of basketball operations Koby Altman said, I like this space. I like the pressure that comes with it. We’ve gotten through the rebuild part of it, and now it’s time to compete for championships. Now it’s time to be a tax team. Right now it’s time to be maybe a second apron team. Now it’s time to be a contender. I saw the odds the other day. Championship odds for next year. Next year. We haven’t even played the finals, by the way. Championship odds for next year. The Cavs are third. Third in the NBA. It’s a really good place for them to be. Like, we have questions about them and whether they’re a playoff caliber team. We have questions about some of their individual players and whether they’re 16 game players or 82 game players. But when you’re competing for a championship, you need a guy like Donovan Mitchell. If you don’t have a guy like Donovan Mitchell, you lose leadership, you lose maturity, you lose stability, you lose your alpha. And I don’t know that Evan’s an alpha. I don’t know that he’s got that mentality. Sorry, I don’t. I don’t know that Darius Garland’s an alpha. I don’t know that he has that mentality. So when you’re talking about who can be 16 game players at this point, this stage of the organization’s development, you know for a fact Donovan Mitchell can. Now, there are questions about can he be the number one guy on a championship team? That’s a legitimate question. But is he a playoff? Yes. Without question, you’re a better team. You have a better chance at a championship with somebody like Donovan because of everything that he’s already shown in a playoff environment. Things that Evan Mobley has not shown, things that Darius Garland has not shown, things that certainly Cooper Flagg hasn’t shown. Because who knows what he’s going to end up being in the NBA. So, you know, if you’re a long term strategist, you do this deal, you do because the mystery box and the upside and the potential is just too alluring to pass it up. But if you’re somebody who’s chasing a championship and you don’t know if you’re going to be around to see this thing through, because coaches change all the time. Front office executives, they change all the time. Yeah. You’re probably saying, let’s, let’s try and take our chances with Donovan Mitchell. With the growth of Evan Mobley and the other things that we like about this group, that makes us think that we can be championship contenders right now.
Ethan Sands: Right. Because I think this opportunity, this gives you the chance for Evan Mobley to grow into that. Right. He gets that chance to grow into whatever you think he’s not. That’s what the opportunity for this extra space to be in is. This is a more nuanced conversation about Evan Mobley and his development. But do you think that Evan Mobley is someone that if given the time, if given the space, can develop into that? Or do you think. Because we’re talking about a window, we’re talking about his development, but we’re also talking about his peak. He’s turning 24. Right. And all these things. Do you get to that top level in the next few years if you give him the time to develop next To Cooper Flag.
Chris Fedor: My God, I would buy every bit of Evan Mobley stock that that is available on, on the market right now. Think about all of the things guys that, that Evan has already accomplished in his career, right? And then you start projecting forward about what it can be with an expanded offensive role, with an expanded offensive game. You saw signs of it throughout the course of the regular season. It’s in there, there’s no doubt. And he’s going to continue to get better. He’s going to continue to add different components to his game. Think about his three point shot and the confidence that he was shooting with toward the end of the season. Even in the playoffs. There were some step back threes, there were some pull up threes in transition. Now you start talking about his offensive package off the dribble. Now you start talking about his offensive package as you know, a pick and pop player, a pick and roll player playing out of the pocket. You talk about the fade away that, that he’s added. There’s just so many different things that Evan can still add to his game. He works his ass off. He’s one of the hardest workers on this team and all of the things that he’s already accomplished at this stage of his career. We’re talking defensive player of the year, all NBA, first time all Star. It’s not outrageous, guys, to start having maybe not this coming year, maybe not next year, but it’s not outrageous to say at some point in the next five years he’s got a chance, he’s got the skill set to get himself in the MVP conversation. He can be that good and I think he can be that good alongside Donovan Mitchell. I think he can be that good alongside Darius Garland. The thing that stops you when it comes to Evan slightly gives you some pause is just his level of immediate readiness for everything that playoff basketball entails. But beyond that, man, give me all the Evan Mobley stock.
Jimmy Watkins: Just to underscore Chris’s point here. So I wrote this big Mobley for Giannis thought exercise, a lot of thought exercises in the summer when team recover, loses in the second round of the playoffs. And the case against trading Mobley is that he’s part of this crazy list where only 19. This is before we even get into age. We’re not talking about age right now. In the history of the NBA. Well, in the history of the defensive Player of the year award, which was 43 years old, 42 years old now, only 19 players have done that and been voted all NBA in the same season. Eleven of those 19 finished in top five in MVP voting at least once during their career. That’s a pretty good hit rate. And the average age of their first finish was 24.9. Okay, Evan Mobley is about to turn 24. So we are on the precipice of another Evan Mobley leap here. This is what, this is what Koby Altman was talking about at the end of the year when he says, if you don’t think there’s more from Evan Mobley, you’re just not studying the history of great players. This is what he’s saying. We’ve seen the first mini leap from Evan, but if he’s the guy they think he is, and all the signs so far indicate that he could be, there’s always another one. And once we bring the age into this, we have Evan Mobley and six other people in the history of the league who’ve been all NBA Defensive player of the year in the same year, 25 or younger. It’s Evan, it’s Giannis, it’s Kawhi Leonard, it’s Dwight Howard. Run Artest, run our test sneaking on this list. He was a great player in his day. He’s kind of the sore thumb that sticks out here. But Michael Jordan, Sydney Moncrief, I just named five soon to either already hall of Famers or soon to be Halloween hall of Famers. Then we got Ron Artest. Obviously, a lot of context that needs to be addressed before we determine what Ron Artest career was. We don’t have time for that right now. But Evan Moby’s in really good company. All these guys, besides Metta World Peace Artest finished top five in the MVP at least once. Four of them did it at least three times. All right, Michael Jordan won six rings, Kawhi won two, Giannis won one. Giannis is probably stylistically the closest comp. I don’t personally believe we’re going to see many more Giannis’s in my lifetime. But like, what if Evan Mobley is 80% Giannis, 85% of what Giannis can do, that’s pretty good. That’s a hard player to get off of.
Chris Fedor: I mean, at this point, Evan Mobley just protects the future of the organization while also being a highly impactful player in the here and now. And that’s a pretty good person to have when you’re talking about a franchise pillar.
Ethan Sands: We got to go back to what Kenny Atkinson said in his introductory press conference when he got here this time last year, guys, which is crazy. Well, end of the month last year, but the fact that he was talking about then, well, what if we get Evan Mobley to be a top 15 player in the league, top 10 player in the league, top 5 player in the league? Because why not? With all of his abilities, with all his attributes, with his body, with his sign, with all of these things that he has, it’s my job, Kenny Atkinson saying to get him to be that. And I think there was a part of disappointment that Kenny Atkinson felt because he didn’t feel like he might have done enough to get Evan Mobley to be where they needed him to be to help win a championship. Because also in the same kind of conversation, Kenny Atkinson was like, well, we don’t have to have Evan Mobley be the best player we got. Donovan, right? And you think back on that and you realize, like, well, if you have two guys that could necessarily be in the top 15 in the league, you would think those top three championship odds make a whole lot of sense. But I also think there’s this next evolution that Evan Mobley is going to take this summer. And it’s a lot, and we’ve talked about this already, but it’s a lot, in part because of having Kenny Atkinson in the summertime, having a training regimen and having these things that he knows that he has to work on, but having somebody be able to push him in a way that. That only your head coach can push you. And I think that’s an area where I’m most excited to see after this summer and training camp and all these things and how Evan Mobley progresses in the first summer of Kenny Atkinson being in Cleveland. Because I think if anybody is the biggest project, everybody knows it’s going to be Evan Mobley this summer.
Chris Fedor: I don’t even know that when it comes to Evan, the next step in his evolution. I don’t even know if it’s a skill set thing. I think it’s a mental thing. I think he needs to have a level of belief that he’s ready to be the man. I don’t think he is the man yet. I don’t think that he has to take that role yet. I think Donovan is a more productive player. I think Donovan is more ready for everything that comes with being the man. But Evan has to believe that. He has to believe that on a deeper level, he has to carry himself that way. He has to play that way. We talked about it throughout this playoff run, guys, on this podcast. Greatness is not a sometimes thing. It’s not. It’s an almost all the time thing. And Evan has to understand that there’s a level of consistency that comes with being the guy. There’s a level of pressure that comes with being the guy. There’s a level of expectation that comes with being the guy. And he just has to have a better understanding of that. And look like this was his first year of being All Star. Evan Mobley. This was his first year of being all NBA. Evan Mobley. This was his first year of being more of the offensive focal point. Evan Mobley. And there were going to be growing pains with that. They didn’t really show up in the regular season necessarily, but I thought they showed up in the playoffs. There were times where he was getting a ton of attention from the defense and he just didn’t know how to respond to that. There were times that the defense was so focused on the scouting report and so aware of the scouting report, what he does well, what he doesn’t do well, the kind of counters that he likes to go to, the pet moves and stuff like that, that when those specific things were taken away from him, he didn’t have the answers and Kenny Atkinson didn’t have the answers. So it’s just expanding his game from an understanding standpoint of what it takes to be a star. It takes a lot. And it’s not for everybody. It’s not. But that understanding, that’s the growth that I think Evan needs to make throughout the course of this offseason and going into next.
Jimmy Watkins: This is where we get into projecting people, right? We can talk all day. No good 23 year old is a guaranteed anything by 28. By the way, Evan Mobley is showing a lot of positive signs right now. And this is. We’re still talking basketball. But just because he’s checked these boxes early in his career, it’s a really good sign. It’s about as good a sign as you could have. But again, we have to see it. And as I like Chris’s point about it’s not a skill set thing, it’s a mental thing. But I also think those two things are very closely connected because with more reps will come the mentality. Clearly, Evan Mobley isn’t. This is me people scouting. I feel comfortable enough saying Evan Mobley is not Roar. Kevin Garnett. This is perfect.
Chris Fedor: Draymond Green.
Jimmy Watkins: Evan Mobley, since he came into the league, been compared to Kevin Garnett as a basketball player. Right? Kevin Garnett headbutted the stanchion before every freaking game. Kevin Garnett is a legendary trash talker. Kevin Garnett is one of the most adept, emotional leaders of his generation. He set the tone in every game that he played. Evan movie is not that that’s a hard thing to develop. So on the offensive end, I think it’s, he needs more reps. And now we have the question of is Donovan ready for that. We’ve talked about this a little bit, like, is Donovan ready to relinquish, right. The role of being the guy? Because Evan’s gonna need to have as many chances as possible to rep this stuff to be the guy. And the last time we had this conversation, we kind of landed on, well, it would be much easier for Donovan to relinquish this role if it became obvious that someone was. Was more prepared for it than him. And I gotta tell you, I’m not sure that’s gonna be the case anytime soon. With Evan Mobley. It would, like, within the next two years, he’s just going to have to trust even more. He’s going to have to embrace a little bit of this unknown that we have with Evan Mobley, and we saw him at times empowering. Evan Mobley needs to be a 247 job, particularly for him, because Kenny talked during the season when we would ask about Evan, about, you know, he’s playing with two all Stars who are older than him. That’s tough. And they have the ball a lot more than him, and they control most of the possessions. That’s a difficult thing to manage. And so they need to meet him in the middle. Obviously, you would love for Evan to just, you know, barge into the huddle and say, no, no, this is my quarter. Give me the ball. I’m just not sure that’s going to happen. So they need to meet him halfway. And as much as they both say they want to do that, I’m not sure they actually do.
Ethan Sands: I wrote a little bit about this, like, the entire evolution necessities for Evan Mobley at the end of the season, where I went in depth on the whole Donovan Mitchell situation and stuff that we had talked about at length. So I don’t want to go all in depth on that on here, but I do want to get into something that Chris reported on. As we talked about so much of the fun stuff about how there’s potentially Cooper Flag coming to Cleveland. But there are two picks that the Cavs have in this draft. Number 49 and number 58. And the Cavs are already having workouts for some of these potential players. Chris, I know you reported on one of them a couple of weeks ago, but I also seen that you sent out a list of players to keep an eye on to our subtexters. Is there someone on this draft list that you think obviously this is a championship team. Rookies barely, rarely, hardly come into a championship level team and make a difference. But, but is there anyone on the list that has caught your eye to any capacity to be able to help the Cavs next season?
Chris Fedor: Well, it’s hard, right? I mean, Jaylon Tyson couldn’t find his way onto the floor and we’re Talking about a first round pick, the 20th overall pick. Now he certainly played a position where there was a lot of depth in front of him and then more depth got added to it when they traded for DeAndre Hunter. But you know, despite the things that he was doing behind the scenes, despite the fact that he made a couple of spot starts, there just wasn’t consistent playing time for him. When you step into a situation like the Cavs and they’ve got championship aspirations and they’ve got an established core already, and they’ve got an established every night rotation, what do you do? It doesn’t matter really what you do behind the scenes. You need something to happen, you need the status quo to change for you to get an opportunity for you to get consistent playing time. So Jalen Tyson, who had the first round talent, couldn’t find his way on the floor on this team. I think it’s going to be extremely difficult for a second round pick, any of these two picks to find their way into the rotation, to find their way into consistent minutes, to find their way into some role that goes beyond just being a member of the Cleveland Charge and put in the player development system. But I do think that, you know, when it comes to the Cavs and what they’re looking for, I think more ready made players, I think you’re Talking about seniors, 23 year olds as opposed to 19 year olds. It all depends on who’s available at the time that they pick. And I don’t think they’re going to box themselves into any kind of corner of well, it’s got to be a ready made guy versus a young, talented upside guy or it’s gotta be a center versus a guard, or it’s gotta be a guard versus a wing, anything like that. I just don’t think they’re looking at it that kind of way because I think they understand the reality of one, the situation that they’re in and two, the kind of prospect that they’re going to be looking at late in the second round. But one Guy who catches my attention is Elijah Martin. And I know that that is somebody that is on the Cavs second round radar. There’s a couple of different ones. I know that the Cavs like Johnny Broom from Auburn again, somebody who is a little bit more ready, a little bit more seasoned coming out of college, more experienced. Tyrese Proctor is somebody else that they like. A couple of the overseas guys, the kid Omur Yuri that, that they worked out. He started at one place and he finished at another one. So more seasoning, more experience, more game reps, maybe a little bit more physical maturity coming into the NBA. Those are names that certainly stand out to me. But Elijah Martin I think is interesting because you talk about somebody who again five years in college showed that he could score it. I think double figures every single season, but maybe one his first year. So he’s seen a lot of things. He’s been in a lot of games, he’s been in a lot of pressure packed situations, NCAA tournament, worn a lot of hats, played a lot of different roles. I think he’s the kind of guy who fits the profile maybe of what the Cavs could potentially be looking for out of this second round pick.
Jimmy Watkins: Again, I say this is a Nuggets model. Just real quick, this is what they’ve been trying. Jalen Pickett was like a 24 year old rookie, Julian Strother, 21 year old rookie. But what we’ve learned is those guys still need seasoning too. It’s still a big leap from college to the NBA. So you. Yeah, I mean these are, these are important draft picks. If you find a diamond in the rough, you find a rotation player here, man, that would be a massive win for a team that needs cap relief, needs affordable team controlled contracts. But the draft is already in a super inexact science. And in the second round, the numbers, I think more second rounders are making it recently we’re getting better at scouting these guys, but your odds are longer the longer you wait to get drafted.
Ethan Sands: And just for some housekeeping things. Elijah Morton played for four years at FAU before transferring to Florida for his final season in college. And the player that the Cavs worked out, Cliff, that Chris was mentioning played at Rutgers before playing at Alabama this season. Just a little bit more information on Elijah Martin in Florida. He is 6 foot 2, 210 pounds, but he averaged 14 and a half points, 4.5 rebounds and 2.2 assists this past year on 45.2% from the field. So an interesting player.
Chris Fedor: There’s another thing that always goes into the draft. And we’ve talked about this so many different times, guys. There are certain people in this world that president of basketball operations Koby Altman trusts implicitly and there are certain people in this world that he has multiple basketball related conversations with and relationships are a big part of this. For a number of years when the Cavs were in the draft lottery, there was a Team USA pipeline to the Cavs choices. If you followed the pipeline and you followed the history of Koby Altman and his ties with Team usa, one of the people that he trusts implicitly is with USA Basketball. So he got information about Darius Garland, he got information about Evan Mobley, he got information about Isaac Okoro and a lot of the people that he talks to when it’s related to the draft. Because you’re trying to find out as much information as possible and you’re trying to find people that you can trust that aren’t going to be asked. They’re going to give it to you straight about who this player is, what kind of player he’s going to be. Well, it just so happens that three of the people that Koby Altman trusts more in this world when it comes to basketball related things were on the University of Florida coaching staff and they have intimate knowledge of Elijah Martin and the kind of person he is and the kind of player he is and the kind of player he could potentially be in the NBA. So just remember if Elijah Martin is on the board draft night, just remember the ties that Koby has and it doesn’t mean that he’s going to take them. There might be other guys that he also has ties to. But just remember that Koby has deep ties to the University of Florida basketball program.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s really good background information that I don’t think people are going to get anywhere else. So Chris applauds for that. That’s crazy to just put those and connect those dots together. But that’ll wrap up this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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