CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands, Chris Fedor, and Jimmy Watkins discuss the thrilling Game 1 of the NBA Finals, where the Indiana Pacers staged a remarkable comeback against the Oklahoma City Thunder.
Takeaways:
Historic Pacers Comeback Victory: The Indiana Pacers achieved a remarkable comeback in Game 1, winning despite leading for only 0.3 seconds of the game. This was their fifth comeback victory from a 15 or more-point deficit in the 2025 playoffs, the most since 1998.
Tyrese Halliburton’s Clutch Performance: Tyrese Halliburton made the game-winning shot, enhancing his playoff reputation and tying Reggie Miller for five clutch playoff shots with minimal time remaining.
Pacers’ Second-Half Adjustments: After 20 first-half turnovers, the Pacers adjusted, reducing turnovers to four in the second half. Rick Carlisle strategically had Andrew Nembhard handle the ball more, allowing Halliburton to create effectively.
Thunder’s Offensive Struggles: Oklahoma City’s offense was inconsistent, shooting 39.8% from the field. Key players underperformed, and the offense relied heavily on Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.
Pacers’ Defensive Improvement: The Pacers have developed a solid defensive unit, excelling at making supporting players inefficient. The defensive efforts of Aaron Nesmith, Andrew Nembhard, and T.J. McConnell were highlighted.
Thunder’s Lineup Change: Oklahoma City started Cason Wallace instead of Isaiah Hartenstein, reflecting Mark Daigneault’s adaptability based on matchups.
Cavaliers’ Roster Construction Concerns: Concerns were raised about the Cavaliers’ ability to compete without significant changes, describing them as “top-heavy” and questioning their playoff readiness.
Potential Darius Garland Trade Discussion: The possibility of trading Darius Garland was discussed to reconfigure the Cavaliers’ roster, addressing his defensive limitations and potentially improving the team’s overall structure.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands: What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. And joining me on today’s episode, Chris Fedor. Jimmy Watkins. You know him, you love him. And we are coming to you after one of the most exciting NBA Finals game ones that has been had in a very long time. The Oklahoma City Thunder led for all but point three seconds of the game and still ended up losing the contest. Also, I believe if my math is correct, Indiana had 17 more turnovers than OKC and 16 fewer field goal attempts. A crazy drastic amount when we talk about the possession battle and how important that is in the playoffs, in every game in the NBA, but especially in the NBA Finals. Guys, initial reactions to this game and Tyrese Halliburton and Indiana Pacers coming back from yet another crazy, crazy deficit. And just for our history buffs out there, game one was the Pacers 4 fifth comeback victory from a deficit of 15 or more points in the 2025 NBA playoffs, the most by a team in a single postseason since 1998.
Chris Fedor: I mean, look, this is who the Pacers are. They’re a mentally tough team. They’re relentless. They’re never phased by anything. Doesn’t matter if they’re at home on the road, doesn’t matter if it’s a regular season game playoff game. They just look like a team that has been there before. They look like a team that understands. And it doesn’t mean every single time they’re going to come through and they’re going to make the plays that are required late in games. But they have an understanding of what they want to get to in late game situations. They have an understanding of how they want to play in late game situations. There’s so much knowledge that they’ve gained together throughout their playoff runs and it’s just, it’s a testament to their mental fortitude. OKC is one of the loudest buildings in the NBA. I can only imagine what it’s like for an NBA Finals game and for them to be trailing the entire game and just never look like they were rattled. But yeah, the first half didn’t go their way and they turned the ball over 20 times. But that was more about OKC’s feisty defense. And I think that’s about, you have to play against that defense to understand just how difficult it is, just how physical it is, just how tight the passing windows are and all those different things that you learn by going through it. But, but they still felt like hey, we’ve got a chance here. And they did. Late game situation. Put the ball in the hands of Tyrese Halliburton. He makes the shot that Shay Gilge’s Alexander couldn’t make at the other end.
Jimmy Watkins: This one was different though. Like, we can’t just wave away the first half turnovers.
Chris Fedor: They only have four in the second half, right?
Jimmy Watkins: They adjusted well, but they looked, the Pacers looked in the first half like a lot of other teams have looked. Playing against the Pacers early in series, they looked shocked by the Thunders defensive intensity and aggression and physicality. All that stuff that like that kind of half sinks you in most games. They deserve a ton of credit for. It’s not just the mental toughness to. To come back as a whole. It’s the mental toughness to like, after all, I think that was when you said 20 turnovers. I think they only had nine. They only gave up nine points off those first half turnover. Those turnovers can be so deflating, especially when they’re stacking up like that. For Indiana to get back in transition and at least, at least keep OKC at bay. Okc, I think assisted and their offense was really bad in parts. Jalen Williams was not good. Chad Holmgren was not good on the center of the floor. It was basically Shay do stuff. Oh, Lou Dort’s making some threes and Alex Caruso glue guy. So glue guy stuff that the Thunder had a really poor shooting night and we can have a conversation about what’s more likely to happen. Again, Thunder have a bad. Okay, bad shooting night. The Pacers have a turnover, barrage, whatever. But that the, the mental toughness within the mental toughness. Like for this to still even be a game like the Thunder, when the Thunder turning someone over like that, the game can end in five minutes. Like they could just go on a quick run and it’s a 25 point game and you’re. And you’re done. And they were. You saw moments where they’re sort of nudging it that way, but they could never. Because the Pacers are making all these crazy shots. Topping it in five threes. The Andrew Nemhard and one mixtape dribble dribble series into the. Into the step back three. That was crazy. That was crazy. And just for a Cavs aside, here I’m thinking two things. Number one, it’s. It’s one thing. Obviously we all understand the Cavs need to take a step forward in mental toughness, but for them to go up against one of the mentally toughest Playoff teams I’ve ever seen. That’s, that’s a mismatch I don’t think we have realized was a mismatch in the moment. Right. Like it was a five game series. There’s a lot of reasons it was a five game series. But we talked about it at the time. You could really dumb that series down to. The Pacers were more resilient than the Cavs. And the more we see of the Pacers, the closer we watch the Pacers, the more we understand like that gap is much wider, much wider than we think. And like maybe, you know, it’s hard to keep pulling off all these comebacks. And you can say, I mean you could, you could keep saying we could have another shot quality conversation about, man, there. The Pacers are making some crazy shots. Look, man, yeah, there I heard a stat on some podcast leading the week. This week they were like 24th in shot quality during the regular season and sixth, in effect the field goal percentage. Like this is what they do. This is what they do. And I’m just thinking going forward, like, let’s see, we, we get Cavs, Pacers again at a later date or do the Pacers just have a built in mental edge? Like do you. I worry that there could be like a such like the calves go up by 10 and then the Pacers hit a three and the Cavs dribble off their foot. And there’s something, there’s like a here we go again kind of kind of thing happening. Like that goes for everybody. By the way, if you’re up by 12 against the Pacers and they score two buckets in a row, you’re thinking about it. You are thinking about it.
Ethan Sands: This series in particular, we talked about it beforehand. Yesterday, me and Jimmy went into why we thought this series could go either way.
Jimmy Watkins: By the way. Oh, for one, Go for one.
Ethan Sands: So much for the sweet take there, Jim. But there was an Alex Caruso and one. And sometimes that can be like a backbreaker for teams. And then the Indiana Pacers came down and hit back to back threes immediately after. And we’re like, we’re not going away. So Jimmy, I think that’s a great point. And there were like multiple instances throughout the game where you could just tell that it didn’t matter. Like Shay would go bucket for bucket for bucket and get to his spots and tear up the Indiana Pacers defense. But the Pacers would come back down and find a flow of their own. And it was like Even though that 12 point lead that they took in the halftime, it felt like they could only cut it down to eight or nine at best. Throughout the second half. Until the end of the end of the game, it was like, oh, well, we’re not letting them, like, balloon their lead at all. We’re staying right here. We’re making it close.
Chris Fedor: And.
Ethan Sands: And it felt like if Shai or if Lou Dort wasn’t going to hit shots, and as you mentioned, Jimin, Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren weren’t offensively spectacular as we’re used to them being. It was more so if Shai runs out of gas and we keep continuing bringing offense our way, the Pacers felt like they could close that gap. It just took a little bit longer because Shai’s the MVP and was going nuts. But I think when you talk about a guy like Obi Toppin coming in and hitting some crazy threes, you got Andrew Nemhardt, as you mentioned, and Aaron Nesmith just doing what he does, knocking down corner shots. It’s a testament to the grit, it’s a testament to the determination, and it’s. We keep coming back to this. When we talked about it with the Cavs, how they were able to wear an opposing team down, it didn’t feel like the Thunder wore down. They just stopped making shots. Like at the end of the game. The Pacers had a field goal percentage of 47.6. The Thunder shot 39.8% from the field. The Pacers made 18 threes, 46.2% from deep. The Oklahoma City Thunder made just 11. They were 36.7% from beyond the arc. And I think the biggest thing about that is, is that the Pacers were knocking down big shots, big threes, in the fourth quarter in particular. And I remember there was a point in the fourth quarter when I think the Pacers had made six threes to OKC’s one. And that was like the biggest gap that we had seen. And it was a testament to what the Pacers are able to do offensively and how they’re just going to continue to come at you.
Chris Fedor: Look, I don’t know how this is going to play itself out over the remainder of the series, but late in the game, Indiana showed why it has been one of the best clutch teams all playoffs long. They looked like a team that had been there and was really, really comfortable in that moment. And the Thunder looked like a team that had not been there before and was trying to figure it out. And they had guys on their team that were going outside of themselves and outside of their own capabilities, trying to do a little bit too much. I mean, Jalen Williams turned down a shot, he did the pump fake thing, and then he drove to the middle of nowhere and just like tossed up a shot. Like, can he make that shot? Sure. Is that the shot that you want in that situation? No, not really. So I just think it’s something that OKC is going to have to figure out and learn from. Whereas Indiana, they have been in so many close games throughout the course of this playoff run and they have repeatedly come through and they trust everybody on the floor, they trust the system, they know what they want to do in those situations, they know where the ball needs to go in those situations. And they all play with a selflessness that is really, really respectable. It certainly helps to have an NBA champion in Pascal Siakam. It certainly helps to have an 8 to 10 year veteran. And Miles Turner, who’s been through a lot of different playoff games, hasn’t won at the highest level, but he’s been through a lot of different playoff games. And Andrew Nemhard is just, man, pound for pound, one of the toughest dudes physically and mentally in the NBA. So, I mean, I think this speaks a little bit to OKC’s relative inexperience. I also think it speaks to all of the great qualities that everybody saw in Cleveland firsthand about the Indiana Pacers that people here in Cleveland hate about these Pacers, but they’re just made different, man. Like, they have dudes that are made different. And they certainly have a coaching advantage too, because I thought the things that, that Rick Carlile figured out in the second half and the adjustments that he made in the second half, you felt those, those showed themselves. And the last thing about the Pacers, and too many people got caught up in the overall numbers and the overall reputation of Indiana. They can guard now. They can guard. They’ve. I know that Tyrese Halliburton got picked on at various points, and I know that there were other opportunities where, you know, Obi Toppin looked a little bit out of place on the defensive end of the floor and Ben Shepard kind of got pushed around physically, but overall, they can guard. And in every single series that they’ve played, basically there’s been a 30 point score on the other side. But they just make it really, really difficult on everybody else. And, and they make everybody else on the team inefficient, uncomfortable, and that’s just kind of how like, they have built their defense. They trust Aaron Neesmith, they trust Andrew Nemhard, they’re they believe that those guys are going to make it as tough as possible on these star players. And even if they give up 30 to Donovan Mitchell or 35 to Jalen Brunson or 38 to Shay Gilgeous Alexander, they do such a good job on the other guys, the supporting cast around those guys, that it doesn’t feel like a typical onslaught from that particular star player. Not every time anyway.
Ethan Sands: And I think just for a stats purpose, like we know how great Indiana is at moving the ball and obviously they also and to Chris’s point, Rick Carlisle had Andrew Nemhard handling the basketball more in the second half than Tyrese Halliburton to let him get off the ball and still be able to create when the ball came to him when.
Chris Fedor: It when it needed to.
Ethan Sands: But Andrew Nemhard and Tyrese Halliburton combined for 12 assists. The Oklahoma City Thunder had 13 assists total in the game. Indiana had 24. And I think it shows not only the trust aspect that Chris was talking about, but also just the offense was so stagnant and stale for OKC outside of Shay. And it’s not like the ball wasn’t moving, it’s just like it couldn’t Aaron Neesmith, Andrew Nemhardt playing tight defense and also TJ McConnell being a pest defensively, even though he’s not the biggest guy, he sure is annoying, right? So I think there’s definitely different aspects to each team’s game that they were able to use, and Rick Carlisle being able to adjust to those things was extremely helpful. But I wanted to turn this into, as we always do, a Cavs question as well. And it goes to the very beginning of the game where the Oklahoma City Thunder changed their lineup, their starting lineup that they had been using throughout the entire playoffs and implemented Tayson Wallace in his second season in the NBA and took out Isaiah Hardenstein. So guys, there are a lot of Cavs fans throughout the playoffs that were questioning whether or not the Cavs should have done this throughout their series against Indiana. Sure, it didn’t pan out as OKC would have wanted in the end, but there were definitely reasons that Kayson Wallace should have and made sense to be in the starting lineup to help guard Tyrese Haliburton at the beginning of the game. And then you have Alex Carusa come off the bench and you get different looks and different bodies on Tyrese. That makes his life so much more difficult. In the Cav sense, I feel like it would have either been a change in Max Strus or a change in Jared Allen. Do you think that the Cavs could have or should have used this kind of change of pace and change of identity, even though it’s something that got them to the playoffs like OKC did?
Chris Fedor: I think we have to start here. Casen Wallace started 43 of 68 games this year, so he started more than he came off the bench. The other thing that we have to point out is that a lot of people actually were making fun of of Oklahoma City because they would start the game one way and then at halftime, they would come out in the third quarter with a different starting lineup. Maybe it was Case and Wallace, maybe it was Aaron Wiggins, maybe it was Alex Caruso. But this is something that they did throughout the course of the regular season. They started one way, they finished a different way. They opened the third quarter a different kind of way. I think part of the reason why they did that is because they are so versatile, because they do have so many playable guys, because they do have so many different styles, and I think they wanted to workshop some things. When you build the lead that OKC did in the Western Conference and you just basically ran away from everybody in the conference, you’re able to play around in the regular season a little bit. You’re able to experiment with things. You’re able to build trust in certain lineups. You’re able to empower some of these guys coming off the bench. You’re able to go to Isaiah Joe to start the third quarter. So this is something that they did all throughout the season. It’s something that they were known for throughout the course of the season. And Case and Wallace being in the starting lineup, it’s not that different than what happened for them in the regular season. Different in the playoffs, of course. But I think we understand that when you get into the playoffs, a lot of the outcome of a series is matchup dependent. It’s matchup specific. And if you feel like you have a guy who started a majority of your games and you think he was going to help you in a starting lineup to set the tone defensively, to make Tyrese Halliburton uncomfortable, to be better when it came to switching things one through five, if that’s the kind of defensive strategy that you felt was going to be best for you, or you thought the skill set that that particular player brought and you feel like the rest of your guys are going to buy into that and it’s not going to be a problem for Isaiah Hartenstein coming off the bench, then you’re able to do things like that. I just. If you look at the Cavs, I don’t know what benefit they would have gained by putting Jared Allen on the bench to start a game and putting DeAndre Hunter in the starting lineup. Like one of the advantages they were supposed to have going into the series against Indiana was their two bigs and could they capitalize on that advantage that they had? The answer was no. Evan Mobley and Jared Allen couldn’t capitalize on it, but how they wanted to play, especially on the offensive end of the floor, they felt like it was more beneficial for them to have the two bigs out there if they could have capitalized on that particular advantage. It’s on the players, though, to go out and make sure that that is an advantage, and they didn’t do that.
Jimmy Watkins: In a series where you say your offense failed you, though, we don’t think there could have been more opportunity, you know, at least maybe not to start games necessarily, but there certainly could have been more room for single big lineups, more spam. I mean, DeAndre Hunter’s injury complicates this. Of course, there’s no way around that, but could have. I do think there were opportunities more, more like what the Cavs two big lineup was showing us rather than the one game they won, which they did win handily, to be fair. And they did get a bunch of offensive rebounds that helped level the possession game in, in the Cavs favor there. I don’t know. I do think there were some, there could have been some benefits to going single big. And I do think also that while yes, Casen Wallace was a regular starter during the regular season, that was partially because Chet Holmgren missed a big chunk of time. Isaiah Hartenstein was also hurt for parts of the season. And Kason Wallace did tie his career high for playoff minutes tonight as well. Like him, his role did dramatic. Did. Did not dramatically substantially change tonight. And I do think that’s worth applauding for, for Mark Dagnal because we’ve, I think we talked about this before the Pacer series with the Cavs. Like there is this, there is this, there’s this line of thinking is, particularly when you’re a favorite, that, well, we’re not going to change what we do until they show us that we have to. Because, you know, we, we’re not going to let them dictate to us.
Ethan Sands: Haram.
Jimmy Watkins: Harrumph. Whatever, Martin. I think there’s, there’s value in the humility that Mark Dagnolt showed in doing that, and it makes sense for Even okay, space, yes. But also, when you know this team wants to play so fast, a guy like Isaiah Hartenstein, Casen Wallace is just gonna help you. Gonna help you match up. Speed, quickness wise change of direction wise.
Chris Fedor: Situation where you feel like you gain something by making that particular change or that particular adjustment, then you do it. I’m just asking, what would the Cavs have gained by going to an injured DeAndre Hunter in the starting lineup?
Ethan Sands: But what if it wasn’t DeAndre? What if it was?
Chris Fedor: So who else was it?
Ethan Sands: Dean? If it was Dean Wade or.
Chris Fedor: No. What.
Ethan Sands: Or, or, or what? What if it was Isaac Okoro in that series?
Jimmy Watkins: No, we had those. We’ve had those conversations. What if it was here what the answer is. What if it was a warm body because Jared Allen was just floating through the end of that series? That’s. I mean, you already. We already saw them grasping at straws anyways, by the end of that series. Like, just, I’m poking. I’m the. I’m the pokey with a stick meme guy. Do something.
Chris Fedor: Jared Allen had the best net differential of any player in the Cavs during that series against Indiana. So he was finding. He. He spaced out at various points. He was ineffective in multiple games down the stretch. He got lost at points on defense, but he was still helping them. And he does help their offense. He makes things easier on Donovan Mitchell because he frees him up with his screens, because he is a lob threat, because he can play out of the pocket because of the vertical spacing and stuff like that. So I totally get just the general idea of if you feel like there’s somewhere else that you can go that’s going to create an advantage for you. Absolutely. Explore it and use it more frequently. I just don’t know. I just don’t know how much they would have gained by doing that. And listen to the names that you’re throwing out as other options. Like, think about it. Dean Wade. Like, come on, we really doing that?
Ethan Sands: Isaac Okoro, like, Isaac Okoro has a better chance of guarding Tyrese Halliburton than the Max Truce does. Does he not? Dean Wade has a better chance of guarding Miles Turner on the perimeter than Jared Allen does.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, but there’s another end of the floor, like, you have to.
Jimmy Watkins: Monster is also crushing Dean Wade in the post. Miles Turner is killing smaller players and switches at this stage in career. He really. He is. He is. He’s starting to carry that weight around.
Chris Fedor: Here’s the difference between Case and Wallace and Isaac Okoro. When it comes to Case and Wallace. There is no give and take. There isn’t. He’s not somebody who the defense is just going to flat ignore. He can knock down an outside shot, he can pass, dribble, shoot. He can take his defender off the dribble. He can beat mismatches. He has more freedom to do that within Oklahoma City system. But like it’s not an either or proposition. Like with some of the Cavs players, what you may be gaining defensively in theory, like you talk about the other end of the floor and you’re like, what are they providing to you? So if, if there was a better, more complete, more viable option, I’d be all ears. The only one was DeAndre Hunter and I just didn’t think like it made sense to put him in the starting lineup because his skill set, his skill set to me was better coming off the bench for the Cavs where he could have more freedom, the ball in his hands, occupy more possessions, stuff like that.
Jimmy Watkins: So can I, I just did a quick like Jared Allen, the net differential thing, he was, he was a net negative plus minus wise in four of the five games.
Chris Fedor: I know that.
Jimmy Watkins: So I, he was, I, I, I get now.
Chris Fedor: He was also the best of the Cavs in that particular.
Jimmy Watkins: So were, so were a lot of Cavs, obviously. But like it’s not like Jared Allen was lighting the world on fire out there. I have defended Jared Allen for his playoff lapses. I believe he is a function of his surroundings. The surroundings were bad, so he looked worse. I get that. But like, I don’t know. DeAndre Turner in game five, like, I mean at this point, what are we doing honestly? But DeAndre Hunter in game five was five for 12 with what, like 12 points? What if he was like seven for 14? I don’t know. Like, just try, like try the game. Like game. What we’re really talking about is the last two games right where they got, they got bushwhacked in game four. And at like I think the Cavs were just shell shocked like as a franchise from, from top down on that one. So yeah, I think maybe I haven’t, I didn’t, haven’t watched it back in a while. Maybe there’s a tactical adjustment that could even made that would have stopped that. I don’t know.
Ethan Sands: But like, but if we’re talking about the offense like on the other end of the floor, sure there’s everything, there’s everything that is available with Jared Allen. If he takes one shot, then that’s null and void. Can we agree on that.
Chris Fedor: No, he has other responsibilities besides taking shots. Rightenstein has a responsibility for the Oklahoma City offense. He absolutely does.
Ethan Sands: What I’m saying is we know that Jared Allen still has to set screens. We know Jared Allen has to do all of these things. In game four, he had two points, two rebounds.
Jimmy Watkins: Game four was over in like, 10 minutes. Yeah, it was over like, 10. Like, we can’t. We can’t be nitpicking, but, like, the entire franchise failed miserably in that game, and Jared Allen was part of it.
Chris Fedor: And you could.
Jimmy Watkins: You want to even say that he was the worst defender. Like, he ate the punch the hardest, he shut down the most. Yes, you want to say that.
Chris Fedor: Cool.
Jimmy Watkins: But, like, him not playing like everyone was that way, you know, so that that game in particular is not the one to point at and say, Jared, I. I do think, again, generally speaking, there could have been more. There could have been at least more attempts. But again, DeAndre Hunter’s injury complicates this matter because his first game back, he was not himself. It was clear. So it’s. It’s a gray area. I, I do. I still applaud Mark Dagnault for doing it from Jump street, but because that’s not. That’s not a choice that a ton of. I don’t think a ton of coaches are making that choice. Game one, off the rip in the NBA Finals after you just ran through the west the way they did. But it. Chris is making a very valid point and saying the Cavs version of Case and Wallace could barely grip a basketball. And then the other guys who could fill that role shoot like they don’t grip a basketball very well.
Chris Fedor: I think the other danger that we always run into is that assuming the button not pushed was going to work. It happens all the time, whether it’s Major League Baseball, NFL, NBA, whatever, team sport. Two years ago. Two years ago, Cavs fans wanted Lamar Stevens to get more run in the series against New York because he’s tough and physical. And they just assumed. They just assumed because he was tough and physical that it was going to work, that that move that J.B. bickerstaff did not use enough would have led to success. We don’t know that. We don’t know that. It’s entirely possible that the team would have been worse if they would have made a starting lineup change.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I mean, like, I think, again, what are we doing here? I think Isaac and Dean Wade are better versions of the Lamar Stevens button. Yeah, we’re splitting hairs here. And in In a five game series where you were outmatched in, in many different ways. I think I’d rather push all the buttons and have them fail like the viable buttons than, Than leave some, than. Than leave some, than leave one unpushed. And I do. Again, generally, I think this button could have been at least. Could have been pushed a little bit more. The Cavs never really, never really changed shape in that series. But again, you just keep running. You just keep running into The Wall of. DeAndre Hunter dislocated his thumb very early in the series. So I don’t know.
Ethan Sands: You don’t know whether stuff would or would not work if you don’t try them. So.
Jimmy Watkins: Right.
Chris Fedor: But you have to be motivated enough and have enough belief to try it.
Ethan Sands: And motivated enough in a game five when you’re down three one, I think. I think you’re pretty motivated to try something.
Chris Fedor: You have to feel like as a coach you gain something. What were they going to gain?
Jimmy Watkins: Tell me that DeAndre Hunter did play slightly more than Jared Allen.
Chris Fedor: Yes.
Jimmy Watkins: As well.
Chris Fedor: That’s correct.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s very close. But it’s like 13 seconds.
Chris Fedor: That’s.
Jimmy Watkins: And that’s. I see you making a face, Ethan. Like that’s not the case in like any of these other games. Like he played more.
Ethan Sands: He played more. I’m not even just. I’ve been trying to make even more.
Jimmy Watkins: Well, yeah, but I’m. I’m just out on. On non shooters who are not just not sure.
Chris Fedor: I’m.
Jimmy Watkins: I’m out on people who are scared to shoot. As a coral, I, I don’t care if Isaac made 10 threes when the Cavs were down by 50 points in game four. I don’t trust it when it’s real. When it’s time to get real. I don’t because I have Isaacuro’s entire playoff career. That tells me he’s not going to make shots. And then when he doesn’t make shots, he’s going to stop shooting them.
Chris Fedor: You know who else wanted Isaac Okoro to play more? The Indiana Pacers because it made things easier for them on the defensive end of the floor. And it’s been that story every single playoff series. It’s just so difficult in today’s NBA to play 4 on 5 on the offensive end of the floor. Especially for a Cavs team that was relying so much on Donovan Mitchell to have to create stuff for himself and create stuff for others. And the condition that Darius Garland was in and the condition that DeAndre Hunter was in and the same thing when it comes to Evan Mobley.
Jimmy Watkins: By the way, Isaac Groves played 16 minutes in Game 5.
Ethan Sands: So they were trying to make an adjustment.
Jimmy Watkins: That’s more. That’s more. And by the way, those 60 minutes, he scored. He scored two points.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: Also not as good.
Chris Fedor: Okay. But like, it’s not entirely correlated.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah. Like when the Kaiser Corals on the floor, whatever you’re. Whatever you’re taking off the Pacer’s plate, you’re. You’re then putting it back on. Because the pace, the most dangerous thing you can do against the Pacers offense is miss at the other end and your chances of missing go up way more when you have a dude out there that they don’t have to guard.
Ethan Sands: So let’s do this then. Let’s do this then. If y’ all don’t trust Isaac and Dean mainly to be. To be playoff performers. And Chris has been saying this about dumping Isaac Okoro’s salary throughout the entire summer.
Jimmy Watkins: We’ve talked about dumping Dean as well.
Ethan Sands: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: So.
Ethan Sands: So where are you getting better? How are you getting better?
Chris Fedor: I said it on the podcast about two weeks ago, and that’s the question, isn’t it? There’s a reason why I brought it up two weeks ago. Like, because if. If you feel there is a pathway. I gotta be really careful about how I say this again. Aggregators are like, give me, give me. So, like, there is a pathway, a legitimate pathway for them to reconfigure their roster, to reimagine their off offense, and in a way reset their salary cap situation. And there is one move there that does all three of those things. I’m not saying they’re doing it okay, but if you’re looking for improvement and you don’t feel like enough of it’s going to come internally or player development or the second year in Kenny Atkinson system or whatever thing that you want to bring up, the pathway is Darius Garland. Because you take one player and you turn him into three, and now all of a sudden you have two extra guys that you feel like you could potentially trust in a playoff environment. Then the two that we brought up in Dean Wade and Isaac Okoro. And while doing that, you reimagine your offense and you make it flow more through Evan Mobley if you feel like he’s more ready for that, that you can run different stuff, you can use different kinds of lineups, and then your salary cap situation isn’t as problematic. And I’m not saying that the Cavs are in a situation where it’s like, oh, my God, we’ve got all these terrible salaries on the books and we gotta get rid of so many of them or we’ve got these overpaid players that don’t match their voice. Darius Garland’s a $40 million player in today’s NBA. I totally understand that. You know, Jared Allen’s contract’s not killing them. It’s about what somebody of his caliber, of his importance is worth in today’s NBA. Same thing with Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell. But you know, in today’s NBA with the CBA and the regulations and the restrictions and all that kind of stuff, it’s hard, it’s hard to be that top heavy the way that the Cavs are without feeling like you may have to make some cuts at some point somewhere. The Denver Nuggets had, I know ownership’s different and stuff like that, but the Denver Nuggets won a championship and they’re like, we got to cut stuff. And they said goodbye to Kentavious Caldwell Pope. So yeah, I mean, there’s a reason why I keep bringing this up, even though I know not a lot of people want to hear it in there. Like Chris, why don’t you talk more about Jared Allen? Jared Allen’s the piece that needs to be true. You’re not getting as much back for Jared Allen. That’s the problem. And some of like your offensive complications potentially in a seven game series against teams like Indiana, they aren’t fixed the same kind of way that they could emphasize on, could, could be with moving Darius Garland and getting other pieces back that, that deepen your team for a. That deepen your team in a playoff environment, not during the regular season.
Jimmy Watkins: The idea is to turn Darius Garland into a case and wallacey version of Darius Garland. And by that I mean a two way player where. Where probably like a guy who plays deep a lot of. If there’s a guy who plays defense out there who can score and create like Darius Garland, he’s not available.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: Those people, those guys are max players.
Chris Fedor: Or he’s like, those are 33 years old and, and right. His name is Drew Holiday and who knows what the Celtics are going to be doing. Right?
Jimmy Watkins: Right. So. But like I even even Drew, like Drew Holiday is not.
Chris Fedor: No.
Jimmy Watkins: And never has. The reason Drew Holiday got traded from the Bucks is because the Bucks were like, I don’t know if this guy can be one of our primary creators in the playoffs. That’s what happened. That’s why they traded for Damian Lillard. So like even like a Drew Holiday type, that kind of guy, maybe a little younger, but that kind of guy. And then get a case and Wallacey version of Isaac Coro and Dean Wade as well. And then on the back end with your, with your cheapies like Isaac, you can get. You can’t replicate the high level defense that Dean Wade and Isaac give you with minimum contracts. Like, you can get the offensive, you get shooting specialists. You just get the opposite. An inside out version of those guys on the minimum. And those guys, I mean, it’s very, it’s. It’s the JB Biggerstaff Sam Merrill formula. It’s cut and dry. You making shots today in the playoffs?
Ethan Sands: Cool.
Jimmy Watkins: Keep playing. You ain’t making shots. All right, come sit down. That’s, that’s the idea. That’s the idea with the Darius Garland trade. And the reason why we keep circling around this stuff is because we keep having these conversations about like, well, what could they have done different? And then the suggestions we, that we throw out there, it’s like, yeah, I don’t trust those guys. Or, you know, it’s like we, or the conversation we’ve been having about, like, well, if you lose Darius Garland, then I have concerns about the creation. If you lose Jared Allen, I have concerns about the screening and the deep. Like, sounds like you need to shake the snow globe a little bit. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like you need to, you know, cash in one of these big chips for some smaller ones that, that check a couple of different.
Chris Fedor: Boxes that might not be as talented. And that’s, that’s usually what happens in a trade. But I don’t, I don’t know. I still don’t know that there’s a deal out there that would satisfy the Cavs enough to say yes to. I have brought up a few hypothetical ones. Some fans like more, more of the Minnesota version ones, the New Orleans Pelicans version ones, instead of the Orlando Magic ones. But, you know, Jalen Suggs would be playing for either Oklahoma City or Indiana, and I don’t think he would have any, any issues with the physicality. I don’t think he would have any issues with the ball pressure. I don’t think he would have any issues with being able to guard multiple positions. Just saying.
Ethan Sands: So basically what I’m hearing is with the Cavs construction currently, y’ all don’t think they’re close to winning a championship or being able to contend with teams like the Indiana Pacers and Oklahoma City Thunder. Would I be accurate in that statement?
Chris Fedor: Well, I would think that the status quo would have to change right Things changed with the Boston Celtics. They changed drastically with the Boston Celtics if something like that were to happen to Indiana. Something like that were to happen to New York if something like that were to happen to okc. And I’m not wishing it on any of those teams, but that’s the thing that we know about NBA basketball. Things change quickly. What you believe in September may not be what is in March or April going into the season. Would I have the Cavs slated higher than Indiana if Indiana brings back basically everybody and doesn’t make significant changes to the team that gets to the end? No, I would not put the Cavs above them. I don’t think they’re on their level. I have my doubts about the Cavs being on the Knicks level. All. Although they’ve got some decisions that they’ve got to make. I have my doubts about the Cavs being on a team like the Denver Nuggets level because it’s just a situation, guys, where they’ve got to prove it. They’ve got to show that they understand how different playoff basketball is than the regular season. And their players have to show a level of readiness for playoff basketball than what they’ve shown a majority of their players, their important ones, have to show a level of playoff readiness that they just haven’t shown. So I’m in a situation of prove it. And the thing that’s going to be really difficult for the Cavs is they might storm through the regular season again. They might have a historically great offense. They might come close to the franchise record for wins, maybe even top it, and it’s not going to matter at all. Nobody’s going to care, and nobody should because they just have too much to prove when it comes to being a postseason basketball team.
Jimmy Watkins: I thought I said this two weeks ago. They aren’t close. They lost in the second round in five games for the second straight year. What about that is close? That’s not close. You could say injuries. You can say, I like.
Chris Fedor: They’re.
Jimmy Watkins: They’re not close. Maybe Evan Mobley. Evan Mobley is closer. Closer to where he needs to be. He’s still. He’s still floated at time. We’re still having a conversation about, is it Evan Moby? Like, does Evan Moby need to go get the ball more? Did the cavity just call more place for, like, you don’t. Other teams aren’t having those conversations about their most important player. It’s not all that, like, somehow Carl Anthony Towns gets the ball. Huh. Weird how that happens.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Somehow he just gets the ball. He gets the ball a lot because he’s the second best player on the team. Everyone understands it. And he goes, he’ll. He could take possessions over. He more skilled than Evan Mobley. That’s not quite a fair comparison. But like he’s. That he’s their version. I mean, Donovan’s Jalen Brunson, Evan Mobi’s Carol Anthony Towns. Even on offense. That’s how it needs to be. We’re not having those conversations. Darius Garland, like, even at this point, like, I was thinking about this the other day. Darius Garland, Jalen Williams. Who do you want in a playoff series? Jalen Williams. Like comfortably.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I think so.
Jimmy Watkins: It’s positioning. Well, yes, yes, of course. I mean, like Tyres Halbert and Donovan Mitchell. Like, are we. I’m serious now.
Chris Fedor: You’re the one that said it.
Jimmy Watkins: I know. I mean, look this dude. I saw him on a graphic of all time playoff. Whatever, whatever. We’re doing like fourth, whatever big ball shots. I don’t know what exactly the, the. The time left on the clock was after this factor.
Chris Fedor: Off the charts.
Jimmy Watkins: Him. All time, all time. It’s LeBron James, maybe you’ve heard of him. Reggie Miller, who’s retired, and Tyrus Halliburton who’s in the second playoff run and he’s tied with Reggie Miller with five of these things. What am I supposed to do? I’m just following the information. But yeah. Darius Garland or Jalen Williams? Jalen Williams has had more big playoff games.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: Like in a vacuum. Darius is a better offensive player. I can point to Jalen Williams moments and say, well, this is in there. This is in there. He’s on a better team. I get it. But like, what about. This team is close. Besides a regular, a really good regular season, which we know doesn’t. Doesn’t equate to playoff success.
Chris Fedor: And for all the ball handling with Darius Garland and the speed and the quickness and the change of direction and his ability to organize an offense and handle full court pressure when he’s not getting upset about how physical it is for all of those things. He’s also relentlessly picked on on the defensive end of the floor. And it’s hard. It’s hard when you get this deep into the playoffs to have that level of a defensive liability. It’s really, really hard to strategize around that. It’s really hard to scheme around that. It’s really, really hard to build a team with the right components around that. Think about like all the different things that the Cavs have tried to do. And in theory, somebody like Isaac Okoro next to Darius Garland is supposed to help, right? But Isaac’s still not good enough or respected enough on the offensive end. So it’s almost like a negligible thing. And you’re this deep into the playoffs and these are smart teams and they’re usually pretty disciplined and they have the scouting reports down and stuff like that, and they go at the target over and over and over and over again. And it’s just hard to live that way in a seven game series. It really is. You need Darius to be like Steph Curry level transcendent, Damian Lillard level transcendent to overcome a lot of these defensive deficiencies that he continues to show. And even before he hurt his toe, he was having problems with Miami. And Miami’s not a great offensive. Miami’s not Indiana on offense, Miami’s not New York on offense, Miami’s not OKC on, off. He was having a hard time with Miami. He was getting hunted by my. It didn’t matter because the Cavs were so good in other ways and their offense was so good and unstoppable and it was a mismatch. But when you start getting these margins, when they get tighter and tighter, these things make a difference. And having a huntable player. Ask New York, ask them. Having a huntable player that you have to cover up for constantly, that wears on you over the course of a seven game series. And I just don’t know if Darius is ever going to be a good enough offensive player to overcome some of those deficiencies on the defensive end.
Jimmy Watkins: Two players on a team that got swept called him out in the media for his defense. Think about that. Two of them now. Tyler Hero is returning fire. But still, that’s crazy. That’s crazy. You know, I don’t think most people. We need to reframe our conversations about the Cavs. You know, we haven’t called them in a while. This is a top heavy roster. There’s a top heavy roster. Yeah, right. Don’t trust the top because, okay, they played 11 guys in the regular season. It was fun. Everyone was contributing. Kumbayakkani this, that and the third. Got the playoffs, found out they weren’t very deep.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Jimmy Watkins: We’re actually very deep. We talked, we had the conversation. I mean, like, how many guys did I trust? What we were saying, like the conference finals level, two and a half. I think the optimistic version of that, like how like I can get there potentially with like five or six add in, you got your core four, you got DeAndre Hunter, you got Max Struz. After that, I don’t trust anyone.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: At a high level, and I haven’t seen it very much from those other guys. So you have a top heavy roster, and I don’t even trust everyone at the top. So, no, they’re not close.
Chris Fedor: And here’s a thing to add to it, because people might be saying, well, what about Tyrese Halliburton, defensive liability? His numbers are not good on the defensive. He’s 6 5. He’s got length. He can contest shots. He can get into the passing lanes. He can at least body up guys in the post to try to make it a little bit more difficult, to try to provide some level of resistance. And if he’s off the ball, he’s disruptive. You’ve seen him get in passing lanes, you’ve seen him get deflections. That was a big part of his role on defense in the series against New York, and he was pretty disruptive in that particular. On the ball, it’s completely different. When he’s involved in switches and pulled out to the perimeter, it’s completely different. But Darius is undersized and a defensive liability, so it becomes a little bit of a different conversation. At the very least, Tyrese Halliburton can contest shots where the opponent feels it enough to make it make a slight difference. And like I said, those other things that he brings because of his length, his athleticism, his size might be a.
Ethan Sands: Little bit unfair to do because we already got to witness game one. But, Chris, I think the fans want to know what your take is on this series. Who do you got? How many games do you see it going? What’s your thought process? And we’ll end with that.
Chris Fedor: I’m not changing too much. I think OKC is the superior team. I think they have enough lineup flexibility and versatility. I think they’ll get things figured out a little bit more with their offense. And I do feel like this is the kind of team that is going to learn as they go on, and it is the kind of team that has shown that it can learn from its failures. So they led for all but 0.3 seconds. I can’t ignore that. I know how good they are defensively. I know that they have more reliable offensive players than what was shown tonight. Chet Holmgren was just non existent. Jalen Williams over.
Jimmy Watkins: Chad looked overwhelmed. He did look like a guy he was pressing at times.
Chris Fedor: Yeah. Looked like he didn’t really belong in. In this series. I. I think it’s gonna have to play itself out a little bit differently and we give him a little bit of latitude to try and figure it out because it was his first NBA Finals game, but he certainly looked overmatched and it looked like he didn’t belong on the court at either end of the floor floor in this particular series. It’s up to him to change that the rest of the way. Jalen Williams has had these kinds of games before in the playoffs and he has found a way to bounce back. He’s really, really tough mentally and physically. I think he’ll make some of the shots that he didn’t tonight, some of the good looks that he got that he missed. So I still think over the course of a seven game series, I think OKC is the better, deeper team and I think they have more answers. But it is so hard at this point to completely count out Indy because there’s just something about them.
Ethan Sands: I want to give one last stat and we’ll get out of here. Because Chris mentioned this and I had mentioned it earlier. Since 1998, only four teams have won a playoff game despite leading for 30 seconds or less. The 1999 San Antonio Spurs in game two of the Western Conference Finals, they led for just 10 seconds. The 2002 Los Angeles Lakers in game four of the Western Conference Finals, they LED for 13 seconds. The 2001 Dallas Mavericks in game five of the first round, they LED for 30 seconds. And then of course, game one tonight in 2025, the Pacers led for 0.3 seconds. Insane. Insane Cinema at its finest. And I was saying this to Jimmy before we got on the podcast. If there are people that are legitimately not watching this series because it’s small market, you missed out. And I don’t feel bad.
Jimmy Watkins: Real. That’s not a real thing. People who like basketball watch basketball. That’s how it works.
Ethan Sands: With all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the One and Goal Cold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get inside of coverage on the Cavs. From me, Chris, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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