CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, host Ethan Sands, along with Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins, discuss the Cavs’ upcoming season, focusing on their increased exposure with 24 nationally televised games.
Takeaways:
The Cavaliers have significantly increased their national exposure this season with 24 televised games.
The Cavs are considered a top-tier team in the Eastern Conference, especially with the uncertainty surrounding other teams.
The scheduling of games can greatly affect team performance and media coverage.
Streaming platforms are changing how fans engage with the NBA, but there are concerns about accessibility and ratings.
The NBA is in a transitional phase, searching for the next superstar to carry the league’s brand.
International players are becoming more prominent, but the league may need an American star to resonate with fans.
The All-Star game format may need to evolve to maintain relevance and competitiveness.
Players’ willingness to compete in the All-Star game is crucial for its success.
The NBA’s focus on championships may overshadow the importance of regular season games and All-Star recognition.
The conversation around the All-Star game reflects broader issues in the NBA regarding player engagement and fan interest.
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Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was generated by artificial intelligence and could contain misspellings and errors.
Ethan Sands: What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Joining me today, Chris Fedor and Jimmy Watkins, cleveland.com’s finest. And, guys, while we were away from the podcast, just for a few days, The Cleveland Cavaliers 2025, 2026 schedule was announced. The NBA dropped all 30 team schedules when it comes to this coming season, and one notable is that The Cavs have 24 nationally televised games this year. Chris, I’m not completely sure what it was to start last year, but I think it was around 16. And now we’re up to 24 this year. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean, it was right around there. And I think the thing that it shows, guys, is that obviously the Cavs are in the top tier of Eastern Conference teams based on what’s remaining of these Eastern Conference teams. And we talked about this on a previous podcast. There are so many different questions about Boston. They don’t have Jason Tatum. They got rid of Kristaps Porzingis. No more Drew Holiday. The belief of what Boston is going to be this year is very different than what it’s been in the past. And even though it’s a big market team and even though it’s got all that history and stuff like that, how do you invest in them? If you’re a national TV schedule maker? And then you talk about the Indiana Pacers, yeah, they’re the reigning Eastern Conference champions, but the way that they’re currently constructed, that’s not the team that went to the NBA Finals. They don’t have Tyrese Halliburton. They got rid of Miles Turner. So there are legitimate questions about them. And if you’re talking about trying to draw eyeballs and create a narrative and just. Just pump up a team that you believe is going to be consistent, stable, great even, you’re choosing between the Cleveland Cavaliers or you’re choosing between the New York Knicks. And obviously, at various points, you’re going to pick the Knicks and other points, you’re going to pick the Cavs. And there are a lot of things to like about this Cavs team coming into this year. And I understand why schedule makers would buy into them. And it makes a lot of sense to me that they’re top 10 in the NBA of all teams in national TV games. And it makes sense to me that when you’re talking about Holiday slates, which are big marquee games on the NBA schedule every single year, it makes sense that schedule makers would Tab the cabs of all the different Eastern Conference seams that they could choose from.
Jimmy Watkins: Still behind the Celtics though.
Chris Fedor: Yeah, I mean like they still have that tradition. Right. They still have who they are and they still have. It’s a big market team.
Jimmy Watkins: I actually do wonder if they’ll stay that way because there’s a. There’s a way that this Celtics season goes where Jalen Brown has a tight hamstring in March.
Chris Fedor: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: And Derek White is. Is feeling under the weather at certain moments that maybe he wouldn’t otherwise feel under the weather. And then the NBA can flex some of these. There’s. There’s also I actually Ethan and I talked about this earlier in the summer. I also think there’s a version of events where like the Celtics are like look, we still got a pretty decent core here and the east isn’t very good. Like we could be a five seed. I. I still think that is within the realm possibility to be a fascinating team. But yeah, it’s good exposure for the Cavs. It’s opportunity again, an opportunity created by a power vacuum. But it’s an opportunity to showcase what they’ve been doing here for the last couple years and build the statuses of Mobley’s, Darius Garland’s. As we mentioned before, Don Mitchell is a. Is a very cool basketball player. I don’t know that the Cavs can ever be a national brand without LeBron James. But the NBA can do worse than doing a little bit of merit based showcasing. And that’s what we’ve got going on here. I will say coming through this list, the Cavs of the teams on this list, besides ironically the Celtics, I would say they’re the only team on this list that doesn’t have like a super duper base of the league type star. Right. Like Thunder, SGA Warriors, Steph Lakers, Luka and LeBron. I guess we could have a conversation about the Knicks and Brunson maybe by virtue of being on the Knicks. Brunson belongs to that conversation. Anthony Edwards. The Houston Rockers have KD Jokic is the best player walking and then the Mavs have Cooper flag who are all wants to be next guy. That’s again that’s. This is that. That tells me. I think this is about where you max out as the Caps until. Until you start winning big obviously. Like I think the Cavs could be in a thundery position if they put together a season like that. But this is, this is about as much exposure as I think the Cavs.
Chris Fedor: Can get given their circumstances or until Evan Mobley if he becomes Wemby or.
Jimmy Watkins: Starts speaking into microphones with with his outdoor boys.
Ethan Sands: For the people at home who are unfamiliar with the corporate list that Jimmy has been referencing, I sent out a text to our subtexters after the nationally televised schedule was released last week for subtexters to get ahead on the news of who had the most national televised games for this coming season. At the top of that list, it’s the Thunder, the Warriors, the Lakers and the Knicks with 34 games that will be nationally televised. And then you have the Timberwolves and the Rockets with 28, the Denver Nuggets with 26, the Boston Celtics with 25, the Cleveland Cavaliers with 24 and the Dallas Mavericks with 23. Also, I want to kind of get into the brain of the beat reporter on this for for Chris. Obviously we understand that coming with these nationally televised games is also the grueling season of back to back 14 sets for the Cleveland Cavaliers and they will play five straight road games over an 11 day stretch at one point throughout the season. Chris, as a reporter, when you look at this schedule, are there parts where you’re like, oh great, we’re at home for a couple of days, oh great, this is a baseball schedule more than it’s been ever. They got home and Rhodes against the same team. They got home and homes and rode in Rhodes against the same same team. And then there’s also times where you’re like, I’m on the road for forever. What goes through your mind when you get this schedule, especially as this has been anticipated for a majority of the summer.
Chris Fedor: Just from my perspective, there are a few things that I look at. I obviously look at how many west coast trips are there. The fact that there’s only one extended long west coast trip for the Cavs this year, I think that’s beneficial to them. I look at how manageable the schedule is from a travel aspect. Are you staying in cities for multiple days? Are you leaving the next day? How many holidays are there? How many times do we get to go to New York? Those are things that I look at because everybody knows how much I love New York. There are two things that stand out to me too. 20 of the final 33 games that they play this season are on the road. And we’ve seen what tends to happen to a team like the Cavs that has big aspirations. Thinking about a championship, thinking about the playoffs as you get toward the very, very end of a grueling 82 game schedule. Just like get me to the playoffs, get me to the playoffs. So 20 of the final 33 on the road for this group going into the playoffs. There are going to be a lot of eggs that are being laid at the end of the season from this group. The other thing is the, the, the baseball series set up on the road is always so much fun. And that’s one of the first things that I look for as a reporter because you get to spend four or five days in one city as opposed to just two, three days in one city. Miami, big thumbs up. Thank you very much. Schedule makers. Multiple days in Miami where I don’t have to just hop on a plane. So you know that one of those is going to be a golf day for me. Sorry about it. If, if anybody in the Miami area that covers the heat is into golfing with me, I’ll be sending a bunch of texts to all of my contacts out there to see who wants to go get in 18 holes with me.
Ethan Sands: That’s great.
Chris Fedor: The other back to back series setup is Philadelphia. It is the loudest, most obnoxious arena in the entire NBA. That’s number one. And I don’t know about the golf in Philly. I think it’s going to be January when they do that with Philly. So that’s not going to work for me. Four or five straight days in Philly in January. It’s not exactly Orlando in a backto back setup. It’s not exactly Miami in a back to back setup. It’s not exactly, I don’t know, Los Angeles in a back to back setup or Toronto even in a back to back setup. Would be glorious if they were to do that. Knock out both of those road games with the Raptors. So a little give and take from my perspective when it comes to the schedule. Great. Two thumbs up with the Miami. The baseball series set up in Miami. I’m going to love my life that week. Philly, not so much.
Ethan Sands: I think that’s fair. And I think there is a lot of different things that I saw on the list that are going to be extremely fun. Obviously we talk about it on this podcast. The amount of holiday games is insane this year. They have so many things to look for forward to when it whether it’s MLK Day, Halloween, Christmas Day, New Year’s Eve, St. Patrick’s Day, and even Easter. Right. So I think one of the biggest things that I think we like to see when it comes to this team is when history is being made. So the Cavs are going to make history as the NBA’s first ever peacock exclusively exclusive broadcast when they square off against the Detroit Pistons on October 27th. And Jimmy, I know you are a big proponent in how these streaming platforms are changing the way that fans view the game, not only necessarily at their homes, but in the arenas and also just who is on the call for these broadcasts as well. I am intrigued to know your thought process when it comes to the growing avenues of streaming platforms and where this game is going.
Jimmy Watkins: What they say when your, your league is struggling to, to garner ratings make the games harder to find. That’s what they say. Here’s the thing. I understand everyone. We’re still kind of in the, we’re at the tail end of a, of a streaming boom here. And particularly for sports leagues, it might. We’re still kind of in the meat of a streaming boom. A lot of money out there to be grabbed because TV execs, we can’t call them TV execs because they’re not TV execs. Streaming execs are realizing that pretty much the only reliable live property that you can have is live sports. Paramount plush has played paid 7 billion with a B dollars for UFC. My goodness. And I just, at some point there is going to be a diminishing return on this, I think particularly for the NBA because I, I know that people don’t necessarily care about television ratings. I don’t think fans should care about television ratings, by the way, like, if you like the sport, that’s kind of all that matters, right? But the league certainly should because at some point this stuff is going to start mattering and your new media rights deals will reflect the idea that you have had a substantial drop in ratings over the last decade. And oh by the way, your two eyeball torch bearers for that last decade, LeBron James and Stephen Curry are phasing out of the league. This is why the face of the league conversation that all the players seem to not like. This is why it matters. This is why it matters to have a bankable star, ideally a few that you can, that you know that people will, will follow and, and, and watch on a, on a given Wednesday night, the regular season. We’ve talked about this before. The NBA is a volume entity. But every sport is trying to be more like the NFL. Every sport wants to have big events that are can’t miss and that, that draw a ton of eyeballs. And for the regular season, honestly, I think it’s, it’s fine. Again, I don’t think it’s a good idea to have to make your games harder to find. But I I think we know where this goes. We’ve seen this where the NFL, the NFL is starting to put playoff games on streaming services. I don’t think we’re far off with that with the NBA. And I would, I would just caution Mr. Adam Silver about wading into those waters. Because the thing about making your games pay per view, quote unquote, because this wouldn’t be quite pay per view, but, like, if I have to buy Peacock or if I have to buy Paramount, plus wherever to find these games, you’ll.
Chris Fedor: You’ll learn how.
Jimmy Watkins: How popular you are real quick. And sometimes the answer isn’t what you think it is.
Chris Fedor: Right? And you also, as you alluded to Jimmy, you learn the popularity of your players. And I know that the NBA can’t pick and choose when they’re going to go into streaming and stuff like that because it’s just the way of the world and it’s becoming the new norm. And this just so happens to be the era that we’re in. But for the NBA, if you had your choice, this is not the right time to get into streaming. It’s not because it’s toward the tail end of LeBron, it’s towards the tail end of Steph, it’s toward the tail end of kd. And you don’t yet. Not yet. You don’t have that new established star. This is the. The person who is going to carry the flag, the person who’s going to be. Must see tv. The person who’s going to make you want to tune in. You know, if you think about, like, a lot of these streaming services and you think about some of these other leagues, they’re in a different place. They might be in a better place just from a general standpoint of getting people to buy those things or getting people to invest in that product in that kind of way. And I just don’t know that the NBA is in that. In. I don’t know that they’re in that space where it’s like, okay, I am investing in the Cleveland Cavaliers and the Detroit Pistons. Like, why, if. If you’re a casual NBA fan that’s just not watching it on TNT because you can’t watch it on tnt or you’re not watching it on ESPN because you can not watch that game on espn. Like, why. Why in October would you do that? Like, who’s the draw? What’s the draw? There are a lot of teams around the NBA guys that have already said, hey, the regular season, not that it’s meaningless, but it doesn’t mean as much for us. So they’ve in a way kind of watered down their own regular season product with all this commentary. And it’s all about championship, it’s all about the playoffs, it’s all about rings, rings, culture. So you’re talking about regular season games in the N B A, especially early in the season. And you don’t have like that guy, you don’t have Mahomes. Right. You don’t have burrow, you don’t. If you’re switching all these other sports. The NBA is looking for that kind of guy to drive the product in a different kind of way. And it doesn’t have that. And it also has a relatively meaningless regular season compared to, let’s say the NFL. Because the NFL, there’s only so many games and every single game basically matters for playoff positioning and stuff like that. The NBA, it’s an 82 game season. The regular season doesn’t mean all that much. And you just don’t have those guys who are carrying you into the next five to ten years. Not yet anyway. Maybe it’s an. Maybe it becomes wemby, maybe it becomes Cooper flag. But at this point, like if you had your choice and everything was equal, this isn’t the time to get into the streaming stuff because you just don’t have that person that you can build it around or that you could build it around. To be honest with you. Like you might try the Lakers, you might try this. Oh, you can’t do the Celtics like the Knicks. Okay. But that’s, it’s, it’s a tough spot I think for the NBA right now, Andrew.
Jimmy Watkins: And you just change your rules, make it harder to build dynasties, which is largely what has driven history of your league. Here’s an interesting thought for you. I wrote about this this morning a little bit. There’s a Browns element to it. It doesn’t really matter. Basically the idea is that it’s harder to tank in the NFL because people are watching every game, every snap, no matter what. Because you. The NFL is an event based sport and I was doing a little research, we talked about how coaches often complain about how impatient teams are with team building and guys that get fired left. Right. Generally that’s true. Nine of the ten worst teams in the league last year didn’t fire their coach. His sons were the only one. Now that was fascinating and I do think it’s kind of, it’s, it’s partially because when you’re supposed to be bad, when you’re supposed to be good and then you’re bad. Patience goes out the window.
Chris Fedor: Right, Right.
Jimmy Watkins: But if you plan to be bad in the NBA, which you can do in the NFL, it’s harder to do because it’s kind of like what we doing on Sundays. Guys. Like, you got to give us something. You have a little grace. Yeah. Because. Because like by the end of last year, Charlotte Hornets fans are tuned out. Washington Wizards fans are tuned out. Like, they’ll find something else to watch on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, which is, you know, I guess, good for, I don’t know, Brian Keith. But is that good for Adam Silver? I would argue. I would argue no. I think you want that, that, that level of investment from your fans. Like the idea that you’re just. I’m just taking the season off. Like, I’ll watch, I’ll watch a few fun 4 4th quarters when I get a leak pass alert or if our lottery picks got 25. Like, no, yeah, it’s got, there’s got, you got. There’s gotta be more than that to it.
Ethan Sands: Do you guys think it’s harder? Especially because all of the star players, all of these next potential faces of the league are in the Western Conference. Like, I think of the Eastern Conference. And the name that comes to mind is Jayson Tatum, who we’re not likely to see for a year. Right. So there’s this difficulty as well where we’re talking about our fans staying up till 10 o’ clock at night to watch the Golden State War.
Jimmy Watkins: 11 o’ clock now. I’m so excited. 11 o’. Clock.
Ethan Sands: Yeah. So it’s so much more difficult because the Eastern Conference is struggling to keep up when it comes to developing these stars. And there are so many of them in the Western Conference. Chris, you mentioned Cooper Flag, but obviously Shay Nikola, you got all of these different players that are just to a different standard when it comes to stardom already that are majority in the Western Conference. And I think that makes it harder for Adam Silver to try and promote these Eastern Conference games. Because who are you coming to watch? Like? Sure. Jaylen Brown obviously is great, but does he push the needle the same way that Jayson Tatum did? Or does Donovan Mitchell push the needle the same way that some of these other players do? I would argue the answer to that. Yeah, I would argue that as well. Jalen Brunson. Right. How close are you getting again? Other than Jason Taydor, other than outside of New York.
Chris Fedor: Right.
Ethan Sands: But the other thing about that is these are smaller guards. Again, outside of Jason Tatum, Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, smaller guards, they can only do so much to bring energy to each game. They can only do so much to uplift their team in each matchup.
Chris Fedor: I don’t just think it’s the Western Conference thing. I think that is a good point and I think it’s something that we have to talk about. I think the other thing is that many of the best players in today’s NBA are international. And that’s good and bad. I think I’ve said for a number of years that the next face of the NBA to me has to be an American born player to, to have the kind of impact that LeBron has had. And, and look, I don’t think anybody’s going to have that kind of impact, but to get to that status, you know what I mean? I think it’s got to be an American born player to get to the status that, that Steph had to get to the status that, that Katie had to get close enough to LeBron to, to carry that flag for the NBA. I think it has to be an American born player. And it’s tough because many of the best players in today’s NBA are international. And usually when you talk about the next face of the NBA, you are talking about the best player or a top five player. And then all of a sudden they have that other stuff that goes with it. The entertainment value, the style that they play. How relatable are they? All those different things, do they have a nickname, do they have a signature shoe, do they have a signature celebration? And all those different things that encompass what entertainment is. But when is the last time that, that we were consistently in a stretch of, of NBA basketball where the best player or you know, the second best player, the third best player was international? We’re stepping into, we’re stepping into new territory, I think, for the NBA because you, if you think back, go all the way back. You know, you had magic, you had Bird, you had Jordan, you had Isaiah, you had Kobe, you had LeBron, you had Steph. This is different because when you think about today’s NBA, you think Giannis, you think Jokic, you used to think Embiid. We’ll see what he does when he comes back from these knee problems. You think Shay, mvp Luca, hello. Like the list goes on and on and on. And it might have to be Ant. Like it might have to be ant, it might have to be Cooper Flag, you know what I mean? Because like you need somebody that is in that same tier. Jayson Tatum might have to be him because he’s already gotten himself as a basketball player to that point where he’s in MVP conversations, where he is leading his team to championships. But beyond Tatum and Ant, we’re talking about all this, this just great pool of international players, and that helps with the reach internationally. And that’s kind of part of Adam Silver’s vision. And it was part of the vision for the late David Stern. But did those guys resonate with Americans the same kind of way? Are Americans going to go out and buy Shay Gilders Alexander signature shoes? Like, are they going to buy Wemby signature shoes? I don’t know. I think it’s just a different place that the NBA is, is stepping into. And I’m not entirely sure they know what’s going to come of it and, and, and how it’s going to work for them.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, this is really, really an interesting conversation. It starts, starts here. David Stern’s plan worked.
Chris Fedor: Yes, it did.
Jimmy Watkins: Sending, sending the Dream Team overseas, internationalizing the brand of the NBA, unquestionably smashing success. Trouble with that is your base audience is still all mostly American. That’s where your, your money’s coming from. And a very basic level. Olympics come around. We’re all rooting for America, right? Yeah. And that’s. Now the NBA is. It’s not the Olympics, but there’s. We’re looking for the. It’s not. That’s the other thing, though, about this face of the league conversation. We’re not just looking for the next face of the league, we’re looking for the next American face of the league. And I’m. It’s a fascinating thing to chew on, like, why. Why isn’t Luka Doncic resonating? Although we’ll see with the Lakers. That’ll be a fascinating experiment. Putting Luka on the Lakers would be a fascinating experiment. See if you can catch on the way other great stars have. Shay, Jokic, Giannis. I think one of the things is that it’s a key difference between American culture and European culture is that we are obsessed with celebrity in a way that is just not the same overseas. And I think you can see it in the way that European players comport themselves. Right. Like Anthony Edwards front of a microphone, like, that guy is worth the price of admission. He is hilarious, charismatic, liable to say something wild, spontaneous.
Ethan Sands: Yeah.
Jimmy Watkins: He grew up watching athletes, actors, musicians, whatever, behaving with this sort of kind of. It’s kind of a uniquely American swagger. Right. Sheikh just Alexander dude goes to bed at like 8 o’. Clock. I feel like, you know, Giannis is a family man who Works really hard. But Giannis, like one of the torchbearers of Mamba mentality. And Giannis is funny and charming, I think, and I think honest, but he doesn’t. It doesn’t seem like he wants that. He wants that spotlight off the court the way some American players do or just. Or get in. That happens to them in the past. Jokic, you know, we know the villain Jokic. It just seems like he cares more about his horses than he does. It’s like basketball all the time. Obviously, that’s not true. He works on it every single day. He’s the best player in the world, but, like, he’s got. How many. How many of our best players in the league have other hobbies that they are. They are almost as interested in, you know, like, that’s. That’s interesting.
Chris Fedor: And it took LeBron 40 years to pick up or something like that.
Ethan Sands: Different side.
Jimmy Watkins: Yeah, I think it’ll take a while to reckon with. Kind of like we did not see the effects of the Dream Team right away. I think we will probably not see the effects of this. The effects of its success right away. So there’s also, like, there’s also a cultural shift. Like, our country is changing. We are not, as I think we are losing, like, for a variety of reasons, like, Pandemic came around. Everyone stays inside more. Everyone’s more to themselves. We’re probably going to start relating to 8 o’ clock bed goers, Shay, Gilgeous, Alexander, as the generations go on, but it’s going to take some time, I think.
Ethan Sands: Jimmy, you make a great point. And just to add on to that, I mean, Victor Wemanyama has admitted that, like, he turns his phone off and he has to read some of his book before going to bed every night. That’s his routine. Right. And the other thing that you. You kind of alluded to.
Jimmy Watkins: Oh, that’s good. Sleep hygiene, kids. Be like Victor.
Ethan Sands: When I think of how the game translated to the international game, I think of when Kobe Bryant would travel for showcases and the entire country that he was going to would feel like it would be in the street when his bus pulled up and he would get mobbed. Michael Jordan, the same way James Harden, when he goes to China, he was mobbed by fans. And it’s not because they were international players to them, it was because they had built up a brand, something that wanted to be latched onto. Right. And obviously, sure, whenever Nikola goes back to Serbia, like, they get so much love, but it’s not necessarily basketball love, it’s. You’re putting on for this country love. And I think when it comes to NBA players, it’s more so they have this stature to them that allows them to walk into different rooms and make it feel like other countries haven’t gotten to experience them. And then you build that rapport with them while you’re in that country. And every time you come back and it, it grows. But the one person that I think of all the time, that I think is probably the most historically mobbed when it comes to going overseas is Michael Jackson. Like, you hear the stories of how Michael would just go and everywhere he followed, he could not go outside of his hotel room because of how many people were there. Like, it’s so, it’s so insane to think about how people have seen, seen what impact they’ve made not only in their home state but in other countries as well. But I do want to say this before we get out of here and ask you guys. We keep having this debate between international players and American born players. The one thing that we haven’t heard about yet is the All Star Game and its setup and its format and what Adam Silver is going to decide to do to grow that game and impact that game in a different way that it hasn’t been relevant in it. It seems a few years now and we’ve had this conversation a few times on this podcast, but Team World versus Team USA seems like the logical answer to not only showcasing what the American born players can do in a scenario where they’re playing against Team World outside of the Olympics, but also putting on the stage to try and figure out, oh, how competitive are you guys going to get if you’re putting on the USA on your chest? Because as we know, as we’ve seen from documentaries now over the past year, those guys care when they’re branded with the country symbol. And maybe that even pushes it a little bit more for players wanting to get All Star nominations. Obviously they want to be All Stars in their own right, but being able to call yourself a part of Team USA outside of fiba, outside of the Olympics, it might push the meter just a little bit. What do you guys think?
Chris Fedor: Maybe. But guys, there are levels to this. At the end of the day, it’s still an exhibition. At the end of the day, it’s still going to be an All Star game. It’s not going to be viewed like a regular season game. It’s not going to be viewed like the FIBA World Cup. It’s not going to be viewed by these guys like the Olympics or something like that it’s going to be viewed as an All Star Game and they’re going to treat it as such. So yeah, maybe if you do international against the United States, maybe the competitive level ratchets up a little bit. Maybe they care a little bit more than they do right now. But I think there just has to be, as hard as this is, I think there just has to be a level of acceptance from, from the league on what this is and what it’s always going to be. It’s never going to be a hard fought, intense competitive game for 48 minutes. It’s. It’s just never going to be seen as that and it’s never going to be treated like that because these guys want it to be part of their break, part of their break away from the grind of an 82 game schedule and they want to put on a show and they want to do fun, easygoing things and they don’t want to hurt themselves in an exhibition environment that’s going to affect whether they can get a playoff spot on their team, whether they can compete for a championship. Because that’s what the culture that has been created in the NBA is about. How many rings do you have? How many championships do you have? It’s not, how do you look in an All Star Game? It’s not are you an All Star mvp? So the All Star Game is what it is. And yes, I do think Team USA versus the world would be more fun and I think it would be more interesting and I think there would be more of a level of care. But you’re just not going to turn the All Star Game into what so many people have spent the last couple of years talking about it maybe possibly becoming because you’re not going to have enough guys all in unison, all caring to the same level that you would need them to care to, to get it to that point. It’s just not going to happen.
Jimmy Watkins: So first of all, I’m even, I’m skeptical that the All Star Game could even be the tool that we’re talking about. Like the All Star Game has like a kingmaker or like a, like legitimate event. Like even when back at the glory days of the All Star Game, by the way. No, forever. People haven’t been trying in the All Star Game. It didn’t just start happening 10 years ago. Maybe, maybe we’ve had a few more printout like in recent, recent years we’ve had a few more pronounced versions of that, but it was not like, what’s your favorite All Star Game memory? I can Vaguely remember one of MJ’s last game. Maybe his last game that, like, went into overtime or something. Maybe I’m getting that wrong. Which kind of tells you exactly what you need to know about my favorite All Star Game memories. They don’t exist. But let’s accept that premise for a second. Let’s accept that if everyone played really hard in the All Star Game, it would be this. It would be this must see event on a Sunday night in February, which is like, television, geography wise, it’s a location, that’s a time, it’s a good spot. People are like, ding, we don’t have football. We’d like to have a cool sports thing to watch. Okay, let’s. Let’s accept the premise. It could make a difference. You know who really doesn’t care about the All Star Game? The European players. Nikola Jokic every year is one of the worst defenders. He just doesn’t care. And. And there’s a. And we can try to tap into some national pride and go USA versus the world, but there is a very big difference between wearing Serbia on your chest and wearing World on your chest. Like, what is that? I don’t. I don’t know that. Like, I know that, like, Luca and Jokic are friends, but is, like, are Shea and Jokic going to go? Okay, we got to go do it for our different countries that really don’t have a ton to do with each other. Like, we’re. We’re focused a lot on the. The American players need a reason to. To come together. What’s. What’s the quote World? Like, we’re gonna. Like, we’re gonna invade America. Like, what. What’s going. What’s going on here?
Chris Fedor: Are you really representing your country?
Jimmy Watkins: Exactly what. I think we. What we kind of need for. For that format to work. We. America to lose in the Olympics a couple times.
Chris Fedor: Times.
Jimmy Watkins: We need the American players to get pissed off. We need a little trash talk between whoever it is that France or Serbia or whoever that beats us again, maybe more than once. And you know what that means? That means we mean a lot of time because the Olympics come once every four years. If we’re going to try this particular format. And I, I think this particular format might be your best shot, but you need time. And here’s the other thing about the All Star Game. Again, we’re accepting this premise that I don’t believe that the All Star Game could be this big thing. I don’t know that Adam Silberts patient enough to make this work. My. This dude changes the rules every other year. I feel like we’re going to be playing slam ball next year with a five point line. And you know what, let’s just play 2K instead. Like, we’ll just stream it streaming on YouTube with some famous twitch, like, can we catch our breath? It. It might help the All Star Game if people knew what the All Star Game was doing every year. Elam ending had a fun year, right? Like the first time we did the Elam ending, I was like, oh, okay, this is kind of interesting. Like when there’s a target score, we do at least get that little fourth quarter juice of like, guys don’t want to lose and they know that they could be losing soon. So you could see a little bit of uptick in competition. And then after maybe another, maybe they did it twice. So it was like, yeah, we’re not doing that anymore. And it’s like, well, why? It kind of worked. And maybe it could have really worked if you gave it a chance to catch on, but you’re just. I don’t know. I just feel like the MBA is run like a social media algorithm where it’s like, oh, that’s kind of cool. Oh, sorry, my screen changed. We got to try something else now. And it’s like, no, that’s not, that’s not how you build sustainability. That’s not how you capture an audience long term. This is the reason why the NBA is so good on social media and struggling via your traditional viewing avenues. Like, it’s it. That’s. That’s how it operates.
Chris Fedor: And so the other thing is, if you talk about world against Team USA for an international flavor to it in the All Star Game and that kind of environment, like you have. Are you talking about 12 on each side? Probably right? You have to have 12 worthy enough from each side. You know what I mean? And then you start looking at those rosters and you start saying to yourself, and like, maybe, maybe it just like works out that way. But there could be a situation that you run into where you start looking at those rosters and you say, well, is. Is guy number 12 for the American side taking somebody that probably is a little bit more worthy of the All Star consideration. Because for all of the things that you can talk about with the game, being an All Star still matters in the state status conversation. It probably doesn’t matter as much as mvp and it certainly doesn’t matter as much as how many championships do you have. But one of the things that we say all the time is xtime All Star Kobe Bryant xtime All Star Donovan Mitchell, two time All Star Darius Garland. Right. Like there still is a status attached to that and maybe there might be incentives in a contract for some of these guys attached to that as well. And then you start really like looking at these rosters and saying, well, Trae Young didn’t get in because guy number 12 on the international because they needed 12 from the international side. Or you could say, well, Andrew Wiggins didn’t get in because they needed 12 from the American side. And I think you’re going to have those kinds of conversations as well. So you have to make sure that you have 12 worthy recipients of an All Star nod internationally and you have 12 worthy recipients from an American standpoint. And I don’t know if it’s ever going to work out exactly the way that they would want it to, where you say, okay, the 24 most worthy all Stars are, generally speaking, right in that neighborhood. The 24 most worthy all stars are exactly 12 international and exactly 12American.
Jimmy Watkins: You’re creating a bigger problem by trying to solve a problem that I don’t think you can solve. Right. You’re hurting legacies to try to or complicating legacies by trying to make the All Star Game this marquee event. At that point, I don’t know that the juice is worth the squeeze.
Ethan Sands: That’s a fair point on both ends. And the only thing that I’m going to say is I think Paul Ben.
Chris Fedor: Caro part of Team World or is he part of Team USA in an All Star environment? Is Carl Anthony Towns part of Team World or is he part of Joel Embiid?
Jimmy Watkins: Well, is Joel Embiid walking first?
Chris Fedor: But if assuming he’s walking conversation all over again with Joel, I just think.
Ethan Sands: Like for the game to matter, the players have to care, right? And obviously Jimmy mentioned, like the players haven’t cared for a while. I think the last time I remember somebody caring is Kobe Bryant, because he was just like, I don’t care. That’s an All Star Game. I’m going to give you a bucket. The only player that I know of that is trying to give 100% at an all Star Game is Victor Wembanyama, who went on the record last year after the All Star Game saying that he believes you can play 100% in every single game that you play. And that’s just how he’s wired.
Chris Fedor: Well, Kyrie spent a couple of years really, really trying and he kind of gathered other NBA players and saying, hey, who wants to get on board with me? And try and make this thing more competitive. So I do give Kyrie credit because he was open and outspoken about it, and then he also, like put in the effort as well. But nobody’s going to do it for the entire game. It’s just not going to happen.
Ethan Sands: You need so somebody to be the voice of, hey, I want to actually compete or just going out there and dominating to the point where it’s embarrassing and it’s like, oh, okay, well, I don’t want to get put on a poster by Wemby and every time down the floor, so let’s actually start trying or anything of that nature. Again, not likely to happen. I don’t think it’s going to. I just thought it was interesting that there is at least one player that could be a perennial All Star that wants to play the game at a high level, even though not everybody else around him is going to. But I think this was a very insightful conversation, not only about the Cleveland Cavalier schedule, but about the future of the All Star Game and where the game is going for streaming platforms and all those different things. If you wanted to argue with us a little bit about what we had to say on today’s podcast, subtext is the way to go. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. This is where you can also send in your weekly hey Chris questions for every single week. When we go into the questions from our subtext or answering them one by one and getting into everything that they have to offer to do. So sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.comcavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the calves from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’ all be safe. We out.
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