CLEVELAND, Ohio — This week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast is live, with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. In this edition of the pod, they talk Browns, and what the 2025 version of the Joe Flacco offense might look like. They also discuss the Guardians, and whether Brayan Rocchio can be a new version of Andrés Giménez, or better.
And Terry shares what he’s been hearing about the Cavs and Lonzo Ball this summer.
Highlights:
Discussion on Joe Flacco being named the Browns’ starting quarterback. Insights into the Browns’ strategy and decision-making process. Analysis of player performances and expectations for the season.
What will the Flacco offense look like in 2025?
Discussion on the Guardians’ strategy of rotating players in different positions.
Terry’s quick look at Guardians prospects.
A debate: Is Brayan Rocchio as good as Andres Gimenez right now? And how does he compare to 2023 Gimenez?
Who Jaylon Tyson of the Cavs is drawing comparisons to.
A listener email about “winning trades” and whether wishing ill of players who go to other teams is bad karma.
Subscribe to Terry’s weekly newsletter for exclusive insights and updates. Visit cleveland.com/pluto and click the blue bar at the top to sign up.
Here is the podcast for this week:
If you have something you’d like to share, or a question or a topic you’d like to see included on the podcast, email it to sports@cleveland.com, and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below, as well as a transcript.
As the transcript is computer-generated, it will contain many spelling and grammatical errors.
David Campbell (00:57.658)
Hey, what’s going on? Welcome to this week’s Terry’s talking podcast. I’m David Campbell, your host, Terry Pluto is here as he is every week. We’re in this for the long haul now, Terry, we’re going to be doing a podcast through football season. So this should be a good, interesting ride. How are you? Good.
Terry Pluto (01:12.864)
I am well, I’m talking to David Campbell. People are telling me they listen to the podcast, which I’m very grateful for. And that does mean a lot. that’s a, it’s it’s a really good thing. Cause I mean, I’m not a podcast person, but I’m finding out how people, know, when they’re, when they’re going for walks in the woods or they’re working out or they’re doing housework or whatever, and they listen to it. And it’s really, it’s a cool thing.
David Campbell (01:19.789)
Absolutely.
David Campbell (01:38.906)
Cool. Well, let’s start with the Browns today. There’s a lot going on. Some big news yesterday. The Browns have named Joe Flacco their starting quarterback, which is Mary Kay Cabot wrote last week. She thought that was the right move to make and it kind of made a lot of sense. Why don’t we start with a letter from Brian Kirkendall. Brian’s a long time listener. And he wrote in and said, I’m sure a million people will weigh on on the Browns QB. I’m excited that it’s Flacco. Why? All I’ve wanted from my beloved Brownies since the return is competence. Consistent decision.
Terry Pluto (01:43.063)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (02:06.254)
Mhmm.
David Campbell (02:07.703)
Consistent decision making backed by a solid plan and identity. The decision to go with Joe drips of competence. The guy just gets it. He gets us. He gets the locker room. I actually hope he comes back next year. It is a way of saying the ridiculousness that has plagued this franchise is done. I support Kevin and AB for the same reason. Let them grow. I feel Kevin is very much a competent head coach now. In business, you have to be competent before you can be effective and then you can be great.
Same with sports teams. Look at the Cavs. They got competent and now they are effectively going for greatness. The Guardians are a model of competence and effectiveness. Buckeye football is sustained competence, effectiveness, and greatness. This is one fan hoping for competence this fall and next fall in 2027. I’m tired of my wife and her family of Pittsburghers mocking me for the last 30 years asking what craziness is next for the Browns. So thanks for that, Brian. We appreciate you listening all these years with us. And how do you feel about the Joe Flacco?
Terry and give us your reaction.
Terry Pluto (03:08.706)
There’s always a lot of only the Browns, but only the Browns could bring in four quarterbacks. I’m not counting to Sean and have the 40 year old be the only one who stayed healthy throughout training camp. I mean, just saying, and I remember training camp, nobody gets hit. And so the, even in the preseason game, know, the Sean did not, excuse me, Chidor did not get injured in the game. got what injured warming up in Philadelphia or something.
David Campbell (03:18.681)
Right. Yeah.
David Campbell (03:36.781)
Yeah, oblique. The dreaded oblique.
Terry Pluto (03:38.158)
oblique. We’ll see how goes. Yeah, baseball, really do all call it the dreaded oblique. Now I’m hoping it’s not the dreaded oblique. It’s a lesser one, but that’s one of those things too, where it’ll be interesting to see if he actually plays them on Saturday or not. But Flacco does need to play. They need to see what they’ve got with their. But in terms of Brian’s thing about confidence, mean, he’s the one guy that has proven
He is competent at the NFL level and even though he couldn’t keep the full-time job with the Colts, you look at those numbers, they’re not bad. They’re really not. And so we shall see. I mean, the remarkable thing, I wrote a long thing on Joe last night for this morning. And this is like, at this point, two years ago, he had no job. No job.
He, his agent was begging teams, bring him in. He’ll come in and try out nothing. And then, you know, he comes off the couch and all that come back part of the year and wants to come back as a backup. And this team is afraid to bring them back as a backup because the fans will start chanting for him when the Sean messes up. Instead, they were busy firing the coaching staff and the offensive staff and everything else to try and revive the Sean’s career. And then.
Here we are two years later. He’s a Brown starting quarterback. Everybody saw that coming.
David Campbell (05:10.905)
Well, when you hinted at this in your column, Terry, everybody thinks you look at a guy like Joe Flacco with that arm and, you know, being 6′5″, he just rolls out of bed and he’s able to play. You mentioned this. This guy works. He’s up early, getting his body and shit. We don’t see all the stuff that he’s doing behind the scenes to stay healthy and have his body ready for an NFL season at age 40. And I think that is something that a lot of people take for granted. This guy has put in the work.
Terry Pluto (05:17.624)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (05:22.977)
No.
David Campbell (05:39.595)
And now he’s getting rewarded with being able to start on opening day. I think that’s really an important part of what he’s done.
Terry Pluto (05:44.75)
I mean, he’s put in the work and what’s he made in the pros 150 million or 200 million has absolutely nothing to do with money. I mean, he, got the huge contract after the super bowl in Baltimore and it was, it was a hundred plus million and all that.
David Campbell (06:00.174)
What are you expecting Terry from him this year? Sorry to interrupt you there.
Terry Pluto (06:04.59)
Yeah, it’s I’ve been thinking about that because you know, we made the case for him or picket starting the first six games because those teams are 71 or 41. But you’re rolling a 40 year old Joe Flacco out there with a running game to me that is very iffy until I see some otherwise and you know, limited receivers. So it’s hard to expect him to go.
Going average 318 yards a game passing. That was one of most remarkable things in those five games. He threw what 14 touchdown passes, average 318 yards passing. mean, through seven or eight interceptions. It’s, mean, with Joe, you get, you, you, I’ll tell you one thing. You’re always riveted at what’s going to happen next. but it’s a tough thing, but at least I think they will be organized. And we also know this Joe won’t panic.
I mean, he’ll be able to handle if he gets criticism. And finally, to Brian’s point, the players do believe in him. Miles and rest of those guys, they do.
David Campbell (07:15.737)
agree with all that Terry. I’m really, there’s, you know, we’ve been writing about Wacko for Flacco and everybody loves him for what he did a couple of years ago. I’m going to be interested to see how long that goodwill lasts because losing is not fun. And I don’t think anybody’s expecting great things out of the Browns this year, but you look at what they have. I think the offensive line is going to be okay. I don’t know if they can run block and there’s, there’s not a bona fide running back as you’ve mentioned, Terry.
Terry Pluto (07:27.917)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (07:42.542)
So they’re going to be facing a lot of third and sevens, third and nines. And the other thing that Joe Flacco can’t do that is part of Kevin Stefanski’s offensive identity is play action bootleg, right? Which opens the field up and you’re not going to see Joe Flacco necessarily faking to the right and rolling out on a five second rollout to the left. Like that’s just not who he is and never, it never really has been him, right? It’s always been more drop back.
Terry Pluto (07:55.555)
Yeah.
David Campbell (08:11.193)
So I think we’re gonna, the Browns fans are gonna have to have patience. I don’t think the running game is gonna be very good. They’re an injury or two away from just a really rough time. And it’s basically Jerry, Judy, and a bunch of unproven guys. So there might be some interceptions here. He’s gonna try and make things happen on third and 10 late in a game and he’s gonna throw some interceptions.
Terry Pluto (08:23.864)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (08:31.828)
Even when Joe’s cooking, there’s some interceptions. mean, this, this is part of the deal, but when Joe’s cooking also there’s end zone. I mean, it was one of those stats where, I think in his 24 starts, something like, pick it, think through only like 14 interceptions, but he only had like 16 touchdown passes. And one of my things, and I get it. The great ones throw a ton of touchdown passes with very few interceptions. Those are the great ones, but then there’s other quarterbacks that.
David Campbell (08:34.274)
Right.
Terry Pluto (09:01.612)
They don’t throw many touchdown passes. I’m, excuse me. They don’t throw many interceptions, but they also don’t throw them any touchdown passes. You know, they’re not moving the ball down the field. Now, Joe did surprise me some back in 23 periodically. He kind of did run that, you know, fake to the right. He sort of rumbled off to the left and then fired a rocket downfield. so, you know, he would take exception of that, David, he would insist he could do this, you know, of course to be playing at 40.
David Campbell (09:24.15)
Hahaha.
Terry Pluto (09:28.342)
You have to insist you could do things that people don’t think you can do. I mean, that’s so that’s it. I love the other. Yeah. No. And when Baker was here, we saw when Baker was at his best, he did a lot of that too. And it comes out of the Shanahan people. do that also. I love the other day I was there probably a week or so ago when they brought Flacko out and.
David Campbell (09:33.901)
Yeah, just to be clear, I think they’re still going to do some of that. I just don’t think, if you watched Dylan Gabriel the other day, we saw a lot of that, right? And I don’t think it’ll be as much. So just to be, you’re right, to be fair to Joe.
Terry Pluto (09:58.542)
He was asked about the interceptions in this and you know, how he’s always cool, Joe. He goes, sometimes wish you could be a six year old when you just throw one, go there and sit down on the bench and cry. And because it does tear him up. Any of these guys that are long time successful athletes and when their weaknesses pointed out, it does eat away at them. And so that’s, you know, that’s a key thing there, but.
This whole quarterback comp count count or competition I mean that was that semi joke to begin with it was going to be one of the two veterans I mean you just don’t you don’t draft guys in the third round fifth round in front of three and 14 team and just throw them out there to start Maybe you do it with Cam Ward with Tennessee when he’s in there one pick, but you just don’t do that I’ve watched too much of Deshaun Kaiser and these other guys just get eaten up by these That type of thing. So they were wiser than that and then secondly
This will be, I think, very freeing for Kevin Stefanski because he can call whatever plays he wants. He could, you know, he, was very comfortable with Joe. I would have loved to have been in the internal discussions because clearly their first pick was Kenny Pickett. They traded for him first. Joe was sitting out there hoping that he would get, it was almost exactly a month after they signed Pickett. Excuse me, the trader for Pickett. Remember the trader for him, DTR and a
I think a future fifth or something. but picket is who they wanted. Then they kind of brought Joe in there because he was available. And I wonder who I bet Kevin push for him. I just believe he did. Yeah. And then, cause they were going to do one quarterback in the draft and then they ended up doing two, but thank goodness Kevin push for him or where we would be sitting here debating. Can he pick it with the hamstring Tyler Huntley, who always comes back. He’s
David Campbell (11:38.893)
I think you’re right. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (11:55.64)
know Tyler Hunt we should web on there. I’m always available. Here’s my number. I’m probably puts it up online needed Give me a call Snoop is it? Yes Snoop Snoop is available. Yeah, that’s right He made a pro ball as one of those amazing stats, too and we’ll be talking about Kenny with the hamstring and the two kids and Who’s gonna start against the Bengals and the Steelers and I forgot who else they robbed Baltimore’s and game number two by the way, you
David Campbell (12:02.489)
Former pro bowler, Snoop Huntley, by the way.
Terry Pluto (12:23.628)
The Baltimore, guess what they’re celebrating like 30 years of football on when the Browns opened there. Did you see that? That’s really nice. That, goes down well. That hated right with all that. And it will be interesting to me to see how Joe does there because, I mean, Joe’s been around forever. I mean, he understood when they went to Lamar Jackson, they did the right thing, but he also knows that, you know, he won a super bowl there.
David Campbell (12:32.217)
man, as if the rival, they’re not hated enough by Brown’s fans.
Terry Pluto (12:52.366)
I remember when I would go to Baltimore and I talked to the writers and sometimes I run into some fans out there and, and, they’d be talking, Oh, Joe Flacco, he’s not that good or whatever. I’m like, well, if you don’t want him, he just sent them over to us. We’ll take him included. I’d love to cover this guy. And, uh, but because he, uh, he won one Superbowl, he didn’t win more. And, um, I just think the guy’s 18 and three against the Browns. Remember how many times those last fourth quarter drives he had to beat them.
I wanted to see it again and I hope fans understand this if it fails and if Joe finally does look like he’s 40 He still gave me and I bet some of the fans here Perhaps the most feel good story the Browns have had since they came back in 99 now they’ve had better seasons and that but just because it came out of nowhere and it came out of the gloom of Watson and Into the playoffs and the games are fun to watch
David Campbell (13:52.442)
And that’s a big part of it, Terry. think fans can go down to the stadium and cheer wholeheartedly this season without having the Deshaun Watson thing hanging over it anymore and just feel good. I’m cheering for Joe Flacco. I’m cheering for these guys and he’s out of the picture and that there’s kind of a cleansing that has happened with the fans. think you’ve talked about a fresh start for the front office and for Kevin Sfanski and the coaches. I think the fans are getting a fresh start too and that’ll be good. I think it’s a nice thing for the fans to be able to go down there on a nice
Terry Pluto (13:53.859)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (13:58.552)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (14:06.712)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Terry Pluto (14:18.989)
Mm-hmm.
What did you think of Gabriel, David? What did you think of Gabriel?
David Campbell (14:22.423)
September day. Yeah Yeah, so let’s talk about the game Sunday. So it was the first time we’ve seen You know Dylan Gabriel start an NFL game preseason as it was he went 13 of 18 for 143 yards one interception and a 72.2 rating I thought he played really well and I’m gonna tell you the one thing I did learn Dante Johnson is not gonna be on this team after next next Wednesday is
Terry Pluto (14:47.795)
Lord. Uncle.
David Campbell (14:51.767)
the cut down day, the 27th of August, and he might be gone before then because here’s the guy’s last chance, right? And if you watched it interception, he quits on his route as he’s, as he’s crossing the field halfway across the field, Gabriel’s on the run, trying to get some help and get a bailout and Johnson, it was, it was all his fault. And the pass was supposed to go to him and he just kind of quit on the play and
Terry Pluto (15:02.808)
Yeah.
David Campbell (15:18.305)
Number one, he’s older than the other guys that they have in the receiver room. They want to give Thrash and Tillman every opportunity to succeed and they’re not going to put up with that. To quit on a play? Like it’s over. He will not be here. I’m convinced of that. And if he is, there’s something wrong.
Terry Pluto (15:29.633)
It better not.
Terry Pluto (15:34.37)
You you go back and remember the voluntary mini camps. He didn’t show up. I miss the guy that was what bounced through three teams and all that stuff last year. Joe Flacco showed up. I don’t mean, mean, Joe Flacco showed up.
David Campbell (15:53.946)
for a guy on his last NFL chance. You thought he would have been there. So yeah, yeah.
Terry Pluto (15:56.734)
Yes, right and and where he would have been and he should have been saying after practice and doing all those things and He just you know went through the motions and get him out of here I mean they they have enough guys so we could talk about that that you know have to prove themselves Because of some of their off-field stuff you don’t need to as my dad will say why are you borrowing trouble? Yeah, why are you borrowing trouble and that’s you know when you they’re all right
David Campbell (16:20.025)
That’s a great phrase. Yeah, love that.
Terry Pluto (16:26.794)
That’s the fact you want to bring them in but frankly I could have cut them right away Look, you don’t want to do you don’t want to be here right away. You don’t want to do this fine call another team
David Campbell (16:36.301)
Yeah, and you know, you need guys in camp because you got a lot of quarterbacks that need to throw. So it’s fine. But like, I just cannot see him being on this roster much longer. So anyway, back to Gabriel Terry, what did you see from him that you liked? Maybe, maybe something you didn’t like. I don’t know.
Terry Pluto (16:39.01)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (16:45.453)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (16:49.238)
Well, the interesting thing when he did the stats, how many completions he had? 14 or 13? Right, and he threw for 147 yards. It seemed like he was throwing shorter passes, but he got 10 yards of completion out of it.
David Campbell (16:53.617)
13 out of 18 is what I have, yeah.
David Campbell (17:05.721)
There were some nice seam routes and some nice medium range kind of in the, you know, eight to 20 yard range. I thought he looked really sharp and everybody’s like, he’s so short. I didn’t see him having trouble getting the ball out and finding throwing windows. The sacked early in the game, you know, so a sack can be the offensive lines fault or a blockers fault, or it can be the quarterback’s fault for not picking up something that was coming or not recognizing it. And I think that that was basically Zach’s enter not.
Terry Pluto (17:08.066)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (17:12.11)
Hmm?
Terry Pluto (17:23.906)
Yeah.
David Campbell (17:34.33)
picking up the blitzing linebacker. They had enough guys in, it was just a linebacker blitz that was a bad decision by Zinter on that play. So I didn’t see any kind of identification issues for Dylan Gabriel in terms of knowing what was coming. And I thought he played really well. And if you take that interception out, I should probably go back and do this, but I wonder what his reading would have been without that interception. That was not his fault. Yes, he could have thrown the ball away, but...
Terry Pluto (17:40.814)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (17:55.138)
Yeah, that’s the thing that kills you. Yeah, I mean, he should have, but.
David Campbell (17:59.63)
He’s trying to impress the coaches. my favorite part of that play that picked six was that Dylan Gabriel did not try to make the tackle.
Terry Pluto (18:07.17)
Thank goodness these guys, you know how I am. People get mad when I say that kickers and quarterbacks are not football players. I don’t want them tackling anyone. mean, okay, the playoffs tackle somebody, but no, don’t tackle anyone.
David Campbell (18:23.417)
Yeah, if there’s something on the line, or if it’s like you said, it’s an important game, but come on, let it run.
Terry Pluto (18:26.158)
Right. Well, just think at Baker Mayfield, not try to tackle. I forgot where his game two or game three of the 22 season. He threw an interception. He tack tackled the guy or tried to, and he messed up his left shoulder. Suppose that hadn’t happened. And from there, it was just one mess after another. And yeah, it was the 21 season, excuse me. But, and I remember one time, Dustin Hopkins.
David Campbell (18:42.007)
and the season.
Terry Pluto (18:55.8)
Remember he tried to chase somebody down and he pulled a calf muscle. This was a couple of years ago. Don’t do it. Phil Dawson wants to try to tackle somebody. And I forgot what he heard his ankle and he, that was the end of him tackling anybody. I mean, I’m sure that he’s a, you know, don’t do it. This is not like, this is not why you’re here. And that, cause also it’s not like,
David Campbell (19:11.395)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (19:21.45)
Okay, a safety gets hurt running somebody down or whatever. I got another safety. You don’t have another kicker. You don’t have another punter and you don’t have that many quarterbacks. So I thought it was what I mean, the kid was coming off a hamstring as it was, let it go. And just like with Deshawn quit trying to prove something. I’m very sure you don’t play quarterback. I’ll tell you one thing. I don’t think you’ll see flacko tackle guys.
David Campbell (19:49.146)
Oh, I don’t think so either. It’s interesting, Terry, that the Washington came here for a preseason game a few years ago and the late great Dwayne Haskins was I think in his rookie year and he threw an interception and he tried to make the tackle and against the Browns and didn’t make it and they ran it back, I think for a pick six. And I was in the Washington locker room after the game and I asked him, did any of the coaches talk to you about not making a tackle on an interception? And what I meant was like, did anybody tell you don’t do that?
Terry Pluto (19:51.02)
What?
Terry Pluto (19:59.51)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (20:17.73)
Don’t do it. Yeah, right. You didn’t, yeah.
David Campbell (20:18.201)
And he thought I meant that did anybody talk to him about not being able to get the guy to the ground? He answered my question totally like not in the way I had intended but yeah, it’s like Man, it is just not worth it.
Terry Pluto (20:23.715)
Yeah, right.
Terry Pluto (20:31.302)
Yeah. mean, no, be a quarterback, be a kicker, be a punter. Don’t be a football player. And as no knock because guess what? These guys that are football players, they can’t be punters, kickers and quarterbacks. They can’t do what you do. And that’s one of the things that we want to see. Now I want to see, and I think this is going to happen. A lot of stuff to the tight ends with Flacco. Watch for that. Tacko like, lack of likes, tight ends. Kevin loves tight ends. Fanon has been impressive.
I, Najoku was his best with Flacco. I think it’s going to cook, you know, they’re all talking about Judy and yeah, he’ll, he’ll get some shots downfield, but these other guys I think could thrive. What do you expect from Isaiah Bond?
David Campbell (21:14.343)
not much. mean, I, so here’s a guy, what he runs a 4.4 40 or something. And I’ve seen a lot of comparisons to Darnell Mooney, who’s had a really good NFL career, someone who’s really good in space and can run after the catch. But I’m trying to think of rookie receivers who have had a big impact with the Browns and it’s hard. Like it’s not, especially somebody who’s missed all of training camp practically.
Terry Pluto (21:21.143)
Uh-huh.
Terry Pluto (21:41.535)
Yeah, that’s a big deal.
David Campbell (21:42.072)
So the guy I’m really looking, I really want to see how Tillman does this year. And I was thinking back to a story that Ashley Bastock on our Browns reporting team did last year about Cedric Tillman, that it takes him a while to get his bearings a little bit, but once he does, that’s when he takes off. And I think he’s had enough time now to figure this out. And he looks like he’s running some crisp routes and really doing some good things. I’m expecting way more out of Tillman than I am out of Bond. But what did you think of the Bond signing, Terry? Let me reset it real quick.
Terry Pluto (21:46.734)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (22:12.295)
he, he wasn’t drafted because of some sexual assault charges that came up before the draft. Mary Kay Cabot has delved deep into this. She broke the story yesterday. She’s been on it from the beginning, but about them signing him as an undrafted free agent, a three year contract fully guaranteed for a total of about 3.02 million. And I thought it was an interesting thing, Terry, the Browns apparently got a lie detector test that he took during this whole.
Terry Pluto (22:36.972)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (22:39.711)
legal saga and they were satisfied with what they saw that they were able to offer him a deal. So anyway, that’s the background. How do you feel about what you’re seeing with this signing?
Terry Pluto (22:50.494)
Well, first as a football player Assessor and stuff are Lance Ryslin put up and it looked more like he’s one of these end around guys You know that as you said get him the ball in space. He’s not gonna run these precise routes He’s not going to do that. At least not at this point. He’s certainly not gonna do it Missing all a training camp. I don’t wonder what kind of shape he’s in by the way, too You know, they could say it’s one thing to be in
shape at the health club that you’re working on. I mean, I know Joe Flacco came in like it was no problem, but there’s only kind of one of those guys. the other thing is if you do go out on a limb, even though he was no built and bring this guy in and guarantee him $3 million, it’s, it’s basically a contract that falls right between the second and third round, which is kind of where he was projected to go.
David, you better be right. The guy better not get into trouble and he better at least be a contributor. Because otherwise you just, as you said, you borrow trouble there too. You know, that was your choice. It’s one thing to draft Junkins and then the trouble happens after he becomes your guy. Especially given the fact that as far as we know, Junkins did not have any off field problems. And neither did Hall, Michael Hall, at Ohio State. There were no...
I mean, there was some stuff that some people didn’t have on a draft board. I kept asking, well, why? Where? I didn’t see anything in pre-draft reports. There was no arrest reports. There was nothing. So those are your guys that happens after. It looks bad for you, but this was a guy that was before. So I will just simply say they better be right. And I don’t mean he was a star, but just that he is a contributor and he does the right things. Now, you know, they have Tommy Reese who was with them at Alabama. Reese is the offensive coordinator. You got a lie detector test.
The details I did read, of course, was coming from his camp. Did make it look kind of very iffy, the charges. But.
Terry Pluto (24:53.134)
I guess what I’m hoping is that there’s not a lot of great expectations for this guy to do a lot right away, because I think that would be a lot to ask.
David Campbell (25:02.167)
Yeah, they can find a spot for him. think the end around thing that you mentioned from Lance is really interesting. Like that’s an easy thing, right? And you don’t need chemistry with a quarterback to run that kind of play. So yeah, we’ll see how they use him.
Terry Pluto (25:08.461)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (25:13.622)
I mean guess the other thing you got flacco you tell him line up there and run for the goalpost as fast as you can I mean, I’m serious and Joel he’ve won because remember that was some of what they They want to stretch the field and you know, you got Judy’s you could actually have him bolt there and Judy runs a cross route You know that kind of thing instead of Where something needs a little more precision? So there are things they could do with it I mean I wrote a column over the weekend then I don’t want to dwell it in this podcast. It just
David Campbell (25:19.297)
Right? No. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (25:42.464)
Last week wore me out. I mean, it really was. And I really resisted all the lines of like, felt like I was watching law and order. By the way, I, the only show I have like watch, well, there’s two shows that all reruns of that I watch. One is law and order. Cause there’s like 500 episodes. still some I haven’t seen. And the other is blue bloods. Roberta was blue bloods. That’s it. So we’re old school on that. But in terms of, watching, you know, you had.
Miles didn’t that was a miles gets a hundred miles an hour. Then then you had Bush. They said his court date is in this. This is all in one week court dates in December. Then, Jutkins, the charges were dropped or whatever. And then bought. And I’m like, this is like seven days. I mean, mom, yeah, you could break things down individually and say this or that, but it was just.
David Campbell (26:30.905)
Right.
Terry Pluto (26:37.474)
tired and the Browns never happy when I bring it up. But when you went into Watson world, you then leave yourself open and a national perception is you don’t care about character. When you go that deep and then some people say, well, what about Kareem hunt? They brought Kareem hunt in on a contract that was barely guaranteed. The kid was scared to death. They put more of the fear into them. They may require them to do counseling.
Nick Chubb, he followed Nick Chubb everywhere and he rebuilt his career. I was actually open to that because I liked the idea of how it was. know, he had to earn every, even his, he got a extension from Andrew Berry. It’s very complicated, but there were things quarterly in that first year, the extension that he had to do off the field to continue to show, you know, he’s making progress. We’re not having any more calls in the of the night, all that kind of junk.
And he did it. That’s fine. But, you know, they entered. I’m sure there were other teams after Bond and they decided to go all in. And I’ll just simply say you better be right.
David Campbell (27:47.886)
Well, Terry, I’ve talked to a lot of people around the Browns and I’ve heard that Andrew Barry and Kevin Stefanski, this isn’t, there’s some teams that bring guys in on second and third chances because they’re desperate to win and they don’t care. The Browns from what I’ve heard, they believe in giving people a second chance. Like they believe that should be part of life and part of being a good, a good person, right. And, a good organization. And so I think there is some of that that they, they want.
Terry Pluto (27:58.466)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (28:06.348)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (28:15.385)
You mentioned Kareem Hunt like people sometimes mess up, especially when they’re young and this team wants to give players a second chance to get on the right track and there’s something admirable to that and but at the same time you have to take this stuff when it comes, right? If people criticize you for doing it, you might be doing it for the right reasons, but you still have to accept the criticism. Like I think it just goes hand in hand and that’s kind of where they’re at right now. If this is the way they want to approach it and kind of
Terry Pluto (28:17.154)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (28:33.421)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (28:42.039)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (28:45.709)
be known for that, this is the fault. It’s not fallout, it kind of, again, it’s a partner thing that comes with it.
Terry Pluto (28:53.11)
And I’ll harken back to the Watson thing. It set the wrong tone. It just did. 230 million guaranteed, all that. So, I mean, we’ll see, because they’ve taken chances.
David Campbell (29:05.325)
Yeah, that’s a great, that’s how you get rid of lot of goodwill in one fell swoop, right? Is what you’re saying, yes.
Terry Pluto (29:08.558)
Yeah. One. Yes. Right. And then then if you’ve anything else, so we’ll, we’ll, we’ll see how it goes. And there are times when, you know, the case is iffy and that, believe me, I mean, all my years of jail ministry and that maybe that’s why I like law and order and blue bloods. kind of like, I’ve seen things from both sides and, uh, but things are iffy and these kids have to be very careful and they are that when they come out and especially on social media.
And so we’ll see now we don’t know for a fact that the NFL will just Know bill as they call on the legal thing both Bond and junkins because if they want remember in the NFL they can they can suspend you now bond They could do it now. They would wait till a junk in size before they rule by the way. What is this problem?
David Campbell (30:01.869)
I don’t know what they’re waiting for in terms of signing a contract. mean? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (30:03.726)
I mean if I’m his agent it’s like you can’t now say I want a fully Guaranteed contract in the second round like swething your god or whatever you can’t do that Now if you do, what do you need to get your guy in camp?
David Campbell (30:21.325)
And from the Browns point of view, like he could be missing anywhere from two to eight games based on what happened, just like you were talking about, So the Browns, they’re probably pro-rating the contract based on that.
Terry Pluto (30:21.474)
I mean, what are you, I mean.
Terry Pluto (30:26.702)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (30:32.692)
Yeah, they should and all kinds of things that I mean you could say all right, you didn’t get charged or whatever, you know Stuff was going on That’s all i’m just saying and these guys have That’s why again. I i’m I like second chances where guys have to earn it. That’s I guess maybe my main point and Sometimes they you know, sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t
But when you’re the Browns now, you’ve got to hit on a couple of these second chances and we’ll see. I mean, I liked John, because of course, I actually preferred Hendrickson, other back from Ohio State. Yeah, kept getting him in the defensive alignment. Yeah, it’s the same thing. Yeah, I preferred him. I mean, you watch both of those guys. I mean, it’s one A and one B. Take your pick. Either way, they’re both good.
David Campbell (31:13.193)
yeah, Henderson. Yeah, Trevion Henderson.
Bengals yeah the Bengals defense.
Terry Pluto (31:29.228)
Of course, the fans are. And now I’m getting the emails and this is what you get too. so we don’t want to bring back Nick Chubb on a, you know, a team friendly contract, but we’ll do these guys.
Terry Pluto (31:45.366)
It’s a different type thing, but boy, you leave yourself open for it. get it. Frankly, if I were chub, I would have wanted to go to Houston and start fresh.
David Campbell (31:54.999)
Yeah, I think it’s good for the Browns and it’s good for him.
Terry Pluto (31:56.43)
Because you sensed where they were going when they didn’t jump in right away. Now I’m just saying if I were representing Chubb, they didn’t jump in right away. Then I’m like, okay, I’m going to look for somewhere else. In the same way, if I’m representing Junkins, I’m right now in the office. In fact, this contract would have been done. It would have been done and he would be out there today because we need to get going. I remember in the old days before they had the rookie.
That’s the thing. You got a rookie pay scale. You’re working off of that. I mean, I know all the second rounders are pushing for fully guaranteed contracts, but the other second rounders did not end up in jail on Fort Lauderdale. I mean, just let’s get real. Fair or not. they were and they, yes, and they were in their rookie camps or wherever they were. And that’s, that’s how it goes. So we’ll see. But in the meantime, I mean, I’m anxious to see the, I’m even anxious to see Saturday, see how Joe looks and.
David Campbell (32:38.489)
That’s the NFL’s point of view.
Terry Pluto (32:52.952)
They got to run some, least the basics of the offense that’s coming. I’m anxious to see if it works with the tight ends. Cause I was told this in the beginning that this is one of the things they really think they could get back to is tight ends and that they absolutely love fanning the draft. They, when they talk, you know, they talk about maybe finding Gabriel in the third round, he could be, you know, a jammer whatever. The jam for them was fanning. I know that, that they considered.
David Campbell (33:19.395)
All right, Terry, you did mention you’ve been thinking about Jim Donovan lately. I didn’t want to get to that before we wrapped up here. And as we head into a new season, to not have him around is hard on everybody.
Terry Pluto (33:24.459)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (33:31.886)
Yeah, I mean at this time a year ago, I remember watching some practices sitting there with Jimmy and he’s taking notes because he still thought he was going to be able to do the games and he did the last preseason game. I think it was in Seattle or somewhere. They flew. It was a long flight and he got sick on the plane going out and then by the time he came back, they did his numbers and
they had collapsed again. Frankly, they were out of stuff to try. You know, they had tried all these things and it’s nothing, it’s not a knock on Andrew Siciliano or whatever else, but, Tom Hamilton and I were talking about this, last week and, how, mean, really at one point, you know, Hamilton brushes off the hall of fame thing, but he was just saying how he loved Jimmy’s work and miss Jimmy and, Jimmy was always a class act, all that stuff.
And I said, do you realize Tom that for a long run there, um, we had three guys who were in the hall of fame doing that. should be what Jimmy should go in the hall of fame for football. And I wish they’d put them in the minute he got sick to, let him do that. And then of course, Joe Tate is in the NBA, NBA hall of fame and Tom’s in the baseball hall of fame. I mean, what blessing to have those three guys, um, there, and it just, uh, I don’t know. I was in a.
sort of a melancholy mood. was just thinking about that. And I also remember sitting there with Jimmy one day and this is when they were playing who was, they scrimmaged the Vikings last year and I’m sitting with them and you’re watching the new Ken Dorsey office with these terrible sideways passes and guys didn’t know how to line up. I’m like, Jimmy, is this it? He said, I watched it in Greenboro. I saw it a couple of days when you weren’t here.
This is what I’ve been seeing. And we’re both going, my. And he goes, well, maybe they’ll get it together. I said, well, okay. And of course they didn’t. And then we were just talking about some other stuff. Jimmy loved doing the Browns. He loved the fans. I I got emails from people a week before he died. There were a couple of these younger people who had his form of melanoma. He still was talking to them on the phone encouraging them.
David Campbell (35:54.701)
Man.
Terry Pluto (35:55.884)
You know, or he would be ill, they’d leave a message. He’d get feel better and he’d fire a text off or something to them. And I’m not trying to put them on a church window or whatever, but look, he was unique. I just, with the season coming, I just wanted to bring that up. And I’m sure some of the fans here have, I bet some of them met Jimmy over the years and we all just love listening to them.
David Campbell (36:21.805)
Yeah, one of a kind. bet you could look, you’d have a hard time finding a city that had three Hall of Fame broadcasters at the same time, like Cleveland did. I don’t know that that’s ever happened before or ever will again. So.
Terry Pluto (36:28.322)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (36:32.15)
And the interesting thing is think about where they were from. Okay. Hamilton rural Wisconsin, Joe Tate rural Illinois, both grew up on farms and Jimmy from Boston. know, his, when I, did the long series on Jimmy and in, my new, I do, I am going to have a Brown’s book coming out in a few months. And there’s a couple of long chapters on Jimmy there and, know, his, actually his real dream as a kid was to do.
the Boston Bruins hockey, he loved doing hockey. But he came to Cleveland and that’s, mean, all three of these guys immersed themselves in the culture here and loved it and then turned down big jobs to go elsewhere.
David Campbell (37:17.261)
All right. Well, the Browns have their last preseason game on Saturday, Terry. That is a home game down in Huntington Bank Field at one o’clock against the Rams. Cut down day is next Wednesday, as we mentioned, the 27th. And then, yeah.
Terry Pluto (37:30.998)
All right, next week, we will have the return of the kickers, the kicking report, the kick watch.
David Campbell (37:37.315)
kicker watch. Terry kicker. Alright, let’s do it. And it all is rolling toward the home opener, the season opener, September 7th, 1pm, Browns versus Bengals. So, alright, you ready to take a break here? We’ll pay you some bills.
Terry Pluto (37:54.007)
All set.
David Campbell (37:54.936)
Let’s do it. When we come back, we’re gonna get into some guardians and Terry, I wanna ask you, well, we have a letter from Jim Mullin, one of our listeners about Stephen Vogt’s propensity to have a bunch of guys play in a series and whether that’s good or bad. So I wanna get your thoughts on that. We’ll talk about that and more when we return on Terry’s Talkin.
David Campbell (40:38.553)
All right, we’re back on Terry’s talking. I did want to mention if you go to cleveland.com slash Pluto and go to a blue bar at the top of that page, it will take you to a place where you can sign up for Terry’s weekly newsletter. Comes out every Wednesday. You can subscribe there. Always chock full of insights, contract details. Terry often shares stuff with the newsletter subscribers before it goes on cleveland.com or on the podcast. So check it out. Again, cleveland.com slash Pluto blue bar at the top.
All right, guardians time, Terry. Why don’t we start with this email from listener Jim Mullen. How’s that sound?
Terry Pluto (41:14.464)
You’re in tru- You are Dave Campbell, you are the host!
David Campbell (41:16.153)
All right, we’re going to go this direction. Here’s what Jim writes. It’s my understanding that Steven Vogt wants every player to play in every series. Make it a team effort and everybody feels part of the team with this strategy. My question is, have you ever seen a manager that played with this strategy in the big leagues? What do you think of this at the big league level? I’ve seen many times when a player with a hot hand is sat to make room for a player to get into play in that particular series. And many players
play different positions at different times and the Guardians pay for this defensively. I’ve never heard this brought up as a Guardians weakness, but I believe it is. Thanks, Jim Mullen and Jim says, PS, I never miss a podcast. Thanks, Jim. So Jim sent this before the weekend, Terry, and I brought it up because of course on Sunday, Angel Martinez was moved to second base from the outfield and had two pivotal errors.
as they lost to the Braves five to four and got swept. What do you think of this approach? It’s a good way to keep everybody engaged, obviously, but his propensity to move guys around and keep everybody thinks, keep things fresh. it can come back to bite a team sometimes, right? And have you seen this elsewhere? What’s your take on that?
Terry Pluto (42:26.336)
Okay, number one, you never say, plan to play every player in every series. You just don’t. Even if in the mind that you’re thinking of it, you don’t because things change on you. You don’t know. As Jim said, somebody could be really hot. Maybe you want to keep Kyle Manzardo in the lineup, but you suddenly realize I hadn’t gotten...
summit bats for now they have KFIS or whatever. I, I’m going to DH him or maybe you’re thinking I, you know, I really always want to get Jose Ramirez a rest in every series from third base. gets so he’ll DH, but I want me as Artles back that day. So you don’t say it. You could think it. mean, Earl Weaver, you know, was my mentor in 79. He never said it, but he kind of managed that way. mean, he, would do that.
A lot of his changes were based on data. had pitchers versus hitters. He used, dictated that. They didn’t do a ton of moving positions around. had a guy named Kiko Garcia. Sometimes he played second or short, a little bit of third. He moved him around, but most of the time, you know, outfielders were outfielders and that. was later in baseball where guys played multiple positions in field and out and.
that became Vogue. I would never have said it like, vote that even if I’m thinking that, I mean, Martinez has played a ton of infield in his career. He really has. mean, the outfield is the new position for him, not infield. I just think he should have been able to make those plays, Yeah.
David Campbell (44:08.621)
Well, he said that, right? He’s like, I’ve played second base. I should have made the plays. It’s no big deal. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (44:13.0)
Yeah, he should have. Now problem is, Angel is hitting 207 since the All-Star break. And he’s really, really struggling. And it’s like the other guy really struggling since the All-Star break can go back before that, but I just dug up some numbers for the All-Star break. Carl Santana is a mess. He’s sitting 205 since the All-Star break, 522 OPS, which is almost like nothing. But...
The fans favorite guy to knock around and I don’t blame them. Nolan Jones, David Campbell. What is he hitting since the All-Star break? And we’re talking about a guy with 59 at bats. What do you think he’s batting?
David Campbell (44:53.635)
How about a buck 40?
Terry Pluto (44:55.414)
He wishes he was hitting a buck 40. Dollar 36 with a 410 OPS. And he got a bunt hit the other day. saw it. it’s like Jones. There’s no reason for Jones to play. KFIS can play the outfield. He’s actually not been that bad out there. And I’d rather give the bats to him than to Jones. And then at first base or they play KFIS at first base, want to keep Manzardo. Manzardo is
David Campbell (44:57.404)
no.
I was close for once.
Terry Pluto (45:25.006)
since the All-Star break and actually it started even a little before that when his mother had the heart transplant go successfully. But since the All-Star break, 303 with a 988 OPS. I mean, he’s coming on like crazy. know, Jose’s hitting 277, 898. And then this is an interesting one I want to discuss. There’s Brian Roqueo, 296, 775 OPS since the All-Star break. And basically that’s kind of what he’s been hit since he came back from the minor.
David Campbell (45:56.154)
So you’ve mentioned me a few times when we’ve just been talking during the work week about you, you’re kind of seeing a little bit of Andres Jimenez in Rokeo. I want you to talk about that because we haven’t really, you and I just have not gotten into that. So I want to see kind of where your head is at and what you’re seeing that makes you think that’s a comparable.
Terry Pluto (45:58.574)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (46:03.615)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (46:14.68)
Cause when they first move him and us from short to second, I figured he looked good. I thought he would be good. Cause my theory generally is Strostats can play second base. It’s not that hard. It’s much harder the other way. I say this as a bad second base and I Benedicted in it one year at Hiram college, but I mean, even there you have to learn how to play the position some. And so there were some different things. But Rokeo played hardly any second at all until this year.
has adapted very well and I think he’ll continue to get better. The nice thing is when you’re a shortstop turn to second base, your arm, the strength of your arm really helps you. You could do that. Second baseman, it’s very hard for them to say to go behind second base and fall down, get up and throw it unless you got a rocket arm and he can do that. More importantly, I’m looking now since the exact numbers or really since he kind of came back, he’s had 133 at bats, he’s had 286.
from the minor. that’s, that’s really good for Rokeo. By the way, that was Roberta’s other prospect. mean, Kwan was her number one, but Rokeo was the other, although she liked them more as a defensive shortstop, but she, and she’s kind of like, you she, I’m like the way he moves out there. So, I mean, I don’t know. It’s instinctive and I’m on guys like, you know, Owen Miller. So I know nothing. And, but that’s, so I think that’s promising. Now, of course they have Vizana and they have,
Brito, know, Brito still coming off the hamstring. You know, Bazana is a triple. Bazana has got weird stats at triple A. He’s like three for 14 with like eight strikeouts and 10 walks.
David Campbell (47:55.801)
That is weird.
Terry Pluto (47:57.1)
I’m not even sure what to make of that other than he’s drawn a lot of walks.
David Campbell (48:00.857)
Yeah. So going back to the Rokio Jimenez thing real quick, wanted to pull, so Rokio is 24 this year, right? So I went back and I wanted to pull Jimenez’s stats in 2023 when he was 24, just for comparison, because I think it’s interesting, right? All right. So Rokio this season, you mentioned this 237 batting average, 637 OPS in 77 games, three homers, 31 RBIs. So if you go back to Jimenez in 2023 when he was 24,
Terry Pluto (48:02.925)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:07.366)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (48:12.502)
Okay. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (48:26.798)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (48:30.745)
He had a 252 batting average compared to 237 for Rokio. He had a 638 OPS on base plus slugging percentage. So that’s only a point more than Rokio, 637, so that’s comparable. Rokio’s played 77 games this year. Jimenez played 153 that season. Rokio had the three homers, Jimenez had 15. All right, and Rokio has 31 RBI’s this season. I should say RBI, or you’re going to...
Terry Pluto (48:40.963)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (48:52.494)
Yeah.
David Campbell (48:59.897)
make sure I get that right and- him and has had sixty two over the course of the full season so. Yes right.
Terry Pluto (49:00.342)
I don’t care.
Terry Pluto (49:05.236)
Jimenez stole bases. That’s one thing is he was a very good base runner and he’s faster. Yeah, there’s some some there. Now Jimenez is the best defensive second baseman I’ve ever seen and I have seen Robbie Alomar and others. He really is. His decline as a hitter is stunning. It just is. What’s he got the numbers? What’s he for Toronto? As I saw he’s a 215 or something.
David Campbell (49:33.657)
Yeah, I mean, I got it right here. He’s batting 225. And he’s played in 68 games, and his OPS is 627. So.
Terry Pluto (49:38.126)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (49:43.02)
Yeah. He’s had injuries. He’s had a couple like an ankle and something else. And, cause they’ve been criticized a lot for that trade. Although in the end, mean, right now the guardians, you know, the guardians of may end up having traded Hemenes for, are you ready?
Josh Hardel.
He’s a prospect that came in the deal with Ortiz. You know, cause Ortiz, this thing could be really bad. And who is Josh Hardell? You may or may not have asked, but I will tell you he pitched at Lake Forest. He was a high pick by Pittsburgh and he at Lake County is nine and two with a 2.50 ERA, spitched 97 innings, 96 strikeouts and allowed two homers.
They also got a picture in that trade named Michael Kennedy. I don’t think he’s done that much or Kennedy is the last name anyway. But HARDL is right now what they got to show for that along with getting rid of the contract unless Ortiz, you know, was vindicated somehow.
David Campbell (50:55.545)
Well, and I didn’t want to go back to the Rokio Jimenez thing. If you look at just this season, Terry, Rokio is having a better season, just flat out, like in pretty much every way, except maybe steals. think Jimenez has 10 steals to six for Rokio, but Rokio has got a higher OPS this season, 637 to 627. He’s got a higher slugging percentage, 348 to 322. He’s got 31 RBI this season to 23 for Jimenez. So like this, this year’s version of Jimenez has not been as good as this year’s version.
Terry Pluto (51:05.198)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (51:14.498)
Hmm?
David Campbell (51:25.003)
of Rokio for fans who are wondering.
Terry Pluto (51:25.55)
Right. And it’s just amazing to me, how, you know, Jimenez had that big year, I think it was in 22, where he hit like 280 and I know like 17 homers and that. It was very comparable to what Jose Ramirez did at the same age. That’s what inspired them to, and by the way, Jimenez, you talk about attitude, work ethic, he’s got it all. I mean, this is quality person.
And that’s what inspired them to give him that long-term contract where they bought out a bunch of free agent years and that. And then all of a sudden he just couldn’t hit anymore. And they tried everything. So that’s why they made the trade. And of course they had targeted Ortiz as one of the young starters they wanted to get along with, uh, slight Saccone. And that’s, that was, that was sort of a side issue there, but the Rokeo thing is interesting and they do have the other two second baseman coming.
David Campbell (52:22.435)
be some competition, which is what they want next season and beyond. you kind of got, I’m not like inspired by him. I mean, he’s okay, right? What, he’s 25 now and it seems like we should be seeing some more dramatic improvement from him at this point. But I just think he’s, you know, they have the wins above replacement stats.
Terry Pluto (52:26.954)
What do you think of Arius?
Terry Pluto (52:32.634)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (52:36.863)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (52:46.699)
In baseball, I just think he’s easily replaceable by somebody else. I don’t think he’s standing out in kind of any meaningful way, but I don’t know. What are you seeing, Terry?
Terry Pluto (52:49.495)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (52:54.932)
That’s where actually they could end up back with Rokeo Short and one of the kids at second. Yeah, at second. He’s got, mean periodically, it’s it’s a rocket, you know, some 440 foot homer. I think he did have a 440 in that. Yussel’s ball to right center pretty well. He’s got a great arm. I guess he’s okay. It just, like you said, the same thing, just not very inspiring.
David Campbell (53:00.345)
and bring up one of the other guys.
Terry Pluto (53:22.882)
He got off to a good start, which helped him. but you know, for all these middle infielders, they have signed and drafted over the years. It’s interesting that they’re still shuffling, trying to find guys to play those positions.
David Campbell (53:38.324)
And Arias, he does have the nine homers, I think this season, what 45 RBI and 662 OPS, but it’s just, it just seems like it comes and goes with him. Yeah. So I don’t know, maybe they give it one more year or see how it goes the rest of the way here. But so you kind of got into the prospects a little bit, Terry. I wanted to kind of leave a few minutes for you. I know you’ve been kind of doing some research on some of the prospects and how they’re doing. We mentioned last week, I think toward the end of the podcast about.
Terry Pluto (53:41.133)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (53:48.812)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (53:52.738)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (54:00.532)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (54:05.714)
And you mentioned Bizzara being promoted to Columbus and what are you hearing from your sources? Yeah.
Terry Pluto (54:10.446)
Well, I talked to, I talked to Matt Foreman. It’s going to be, I’m going to write, and that was stuff for the record too. I’m going to write about it for, the weekend. since by the way, I didn’t know the guardians are going to route their farm director. forgot his, Ostra, Osterheim or something that. Oster. Yeah. So he, did that, but, well, fans want to catch who could hit and Cooper, Cooper Engel can do that. the last numbers I have here is,
David Campbell (54:25.271)
Stephen Osterer, yes, or Osterer, I’m not sure.
Terry Pluto (54:39.894)
He’s sitting 291 or an 866 OPS over a couple of things. The big thing with him is he did not catch that much at Clemson. And so they’re really working on that. as Foreman told me, you know, they put so much pressure on their, their catchers, you know, to do this stuff, but, know, he’s a guy that, is worth watching. He’s got some power. another guy is,
And I’ve liked him from the beginning. Parker Messick, five and five or to 330 ERA. They think he could step into the rotation. He’s got a really good change up. A guy they love. And this is a guy, this could be one of those little trades that end up being big. Eli Morgan to the cusp of Alfonso Rosario. And he’s hitting 259. He just got, I think moved up to AA. 18 homers, 836 OPS. He’s only 21.
So I’d like to see something better in 101 strikeouts and 330 at best, but Rosario and Alfielder, I’m always interested in an Alfielder with power. And he’s an Alfielder with power at 21. And so that’s a guy to watch too. I mentioned Hardell is there and this is going to be fascinating to watch. know, Tristan McKenzie has gone to Columbus to see how he does. McKenzie.
I could tell they’re kind of crossing fingers, lighting holy candles on this one. And they’ve worked on this delivery and other things.
He was sent to the Miners and they had him pitching some in these rookie ball games down there. Well, in 14 innings, he walked 14 and he struck out 20. A 691 ERA. So he’s moved up, then they stopped pitching him those games and they just worked on in, know, in our squad games and all this. So let’s see what he does.
Terry Pluto (56:49.294)
Can he help in the bullpen maybe something, but it’s amazing how his career, you know, it just cratered and how who once had really good control lost it. And so they’re trying to see if they can fix that. Another guy that needs some work. Now I haven’t seen if he’s pitched the last few days. Trevor Stefan that’s pitched seven innings and walked nine.
You know, he’s coming back from Tommy John and his foreman told me, said, you know, not everybody is not always linear with that. The guy’s coming back from the operations. They’re intrigued by this guy more than I am. They call it Watson. They got him from Miami in the Josh Bell deal when 23 Watson was a high pick for them, for Miami. And he’s hitting.
241 between AA and AAA with 12 homers, 797 OPS. He’s an infielder. They’ve moved him to the outfield. so they, they say he’s athletic. They like him. I say, we’ll see. But in terms of, that’s just a couple of things that I’m sure there’s other guys, you know, we could mention. Bazzana, we’ve written a lot about him. We’ll have to see what he’s going to do. Brito, the hamstring was a bad hamstring.
And so that just takes him right off of the discussion for now.
David Campbell (58:21.654)
All right.
Terry Pluto (58:23.458)
But Josh Hardell, it’s my guy. Yeah.
David Campbell (58:25.931)
Name to watch. All right, sounds good. So the Guardians are in Arizona. They won last night late out West and they have some more games in Arizona than they had to Texas this weekend. And they’ll be back on Monday. Guardians down at progressive field against the Rays as they begin a home stand there. So, all right. It’s a really quiet season for the Cavs, Terry, but I know you’re always talking to people and there’s yeah, what are you hearing? Kind of filled.
Terry Pluto (58:48.76)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (58:53.358)
I would just kind of check in around. was a of balls been scrimmaging with some of the cast pick up games they have at their facility and that and you know players kind of come in and out and play and I know that Donovan Mitchell was very strong and wanting to bring ball in because he was one of the players I consulted with and they’re excited what they’ve seen them ball. Now they gotta figure out how much to play him and that but the 66 guy that can handle the ball defend.
David Campbell (58:53.697)
our listeners in on what’s up with the calves, yeah.
Terry Pluto (59:22.964)
It’s exactly what they need. so they’re, and he’s looked, looked good so far. So that’s good as opposed to, gee, he was out there and, we better shut him down. Cause that knee thing, you know, you didn’t get any of that. You got the upbeat stuff. Jaylen Tyson is a guy that I know Kenny Atkinson is high on. And you know, Atkinson sometimes compares different guys to, cause it’s one of his all time favorite people and he had him early in his career. Caris Laverte who was here.
He had him in Brooklyn and how Caris just was a hard worker who just relentlessly made himself into a good NBA player. And he’s kind of the same size as Tyson. He’s got pretty good ball handling skills and he made himself into a better shooter. And I think that that’s going to be one of the things that Atkinson and his coaching staff are going to do, see if they can get Tyson to take a step up.
and really just show more because he’s needed. They really do need more wing players. And so that’s really kind of quiet, but I was trying to ask around, has Baldwin playing at all? How’s he doing? You know, that kind of stuff. And that’s what I heard.
David Campbell (01:00:36.633)
I think they’d be really smart to play Tyson a lot early, especially this year. I mean, geez, they set him out of the end of summerly because he was just, they had seen everything they wanted to see from him. So they’re like, yeah, just, yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:00:39.478)
Yes, absolutely.
Terry Pluto (01:00:46.61)
Well, they were killing him because they had no point guard and and all and that’s another thing my guy, Craig Porter jr. Now he went down there and got hurt I think he had the hamstring This is a big year for him Because what I hear is his work ethic is quote, okay When you’re Craig Porter jr. And you’re fighting for time. Okay is not good enough
Relentless is what they’re looking for. By the way, that is the word that’s always attached to Tyson. Relentless. like, Gareth LaVert was relentless. And you have to be relentless, especially around this team here. And there are moments, or excuse me, minutes available at point guard for Porter. But he’s got to show more. And unfortunately, the injury really not only messed him up, it messed up that whole summer team because
They ended up with Tyson playing some of the point. had a kid, I think his name from Brown or something. He was one of these kind of G league veteran guys and he, had problems. watched some of the summer league games. just, he couldn’t get much set up with that, but yeah, it’s a big time for Porter to, he needs to show something in this training camp and that too. So, or else he’s going to be one these guys bouncing between the G league and the NBA and that.
David Campbell (01:02:08.589)
well, mean, how many undrafted free agents have we seen who are scrappy and put in, you know, they put in the work and want to, they’re aggressive and they come in and cause mayhem. There’s plenty of those guys around the league that would love to have Craig Porter’s job.
Terry Pluto (01:02:16.737)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:02:20.27)
Yeah, I mean, I think a guy who’s going to do that, and I believe he just, he was with Indiana, but I think he just signed with San Antonio. Maybe he clicked up, Enrique Freeman from Akron U. You know, he went down to, was the second round pick by Indiana, signed a split contract, didn’t play much for the Pacers. Of course, the Pacers went to the finals. But I think he averaged like 17 points and eight or nine rebounds in the G League. He is beyond relentless.
I mean, this guy was a walk-on. was saying St. Mar DePours, right? East side of Cleveland. Went to Akron on a academic scholarship, went out for the team, an, not just a preferred walk-on, he was an unknown walk-on, made the team, became, you know, the, best player in the Mac, got drafted. I mean, he had to learn everything. And now he’s in the NBA and the G league and he’ll guard anybody.
David Campbell (01:02:53.475)
St. Martin DePauw. Yeah, high school in Cleveland.
Terry Pluto (01:03:18.694)
And I just think that I wish the Cavs had picked him up. I just love the work. It’s not because the story is great, but the player’s promising. But see, that’s you. These guys that come out of the G league, they’re like that, you know, they’re killers and they’re waiting. They know what it’s like to go into these summer league things or whatever. And they’re playing, you know, some of the summer league games, mean, guys are just all over the floor. I mean, they’re playing for their pro lives because they know even if I get cut here, I might get a good deal in Europe or something.
David Campbell (01:03:48.385)
Yeah, I mean you take enough eight or ten hour bus rides in the G League. It’ll drive you to greatness real fast.
Terry Pluto (01:03:51.246)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:03:54.927)
Yeah, either that or you’re just going to be a guy who bounces around.
David Campbell (01:03:59.034)
Right, right. All right, Terry, the Cavs will be heading down toward the season here. We’ve seen their opening night game against the Knicks and also the Christmas Day game against the Knicks and the schedule’s out. So there we go. NBA season will be here before we know it. So, all right, you have a book again this week that you wanted to share with our listeners.
Terry Pluto (01:04:15.768)
Yeah, it’s an author that I’ve mentioned before, Heather Morris. She wrote a book called The Tattooist of Auschwitz. I mean, this is kind of a history, you know, about the concentration camps and all this stuff that, and it’s a novel. She wrote another one called Three Sisters. And by the way, these are all based on, where she met relatives of these people. And she, and also documents and some letters and things.
And she turned them into novels. She is a wonderful writer to read. Again, these are tough stories. They’re the concentration camps. And then the interesting thing is when these people survived, what was it like for them going back to, you know, like regular society? Where did they end up? That kind of stuff. I just think she’s a terrific storyteller. Heather Morris is her name and she’s written several novels. I’ve read two of them now and I plan to read more.
David Campbell (01:05:09.443)
All right, the three sisters. So there you go, Terry’s book of the week. Okay, I saved this email for the end of the podcast, cause I thought it was really interesting and I wanted to get your thoughts on it. It’s about trades. All right. And this is from Rich Primo and Rich says, hello guys, this guardians fan base has a strange fascination with quote, winning the trade. Not just making a good trade, but winning the trade. That means that the trade has to work out well for the guardians and badly for the other team.
Terry Pluto (01:05:32.642)
Yep.
David Campbell (01:05:38.454)
A good trade to me means that we got a good player for our team. I don’t need someone to go somewhere and fail in order to feel good about it. Should I feel good that beloved Corey Kluber’s career basically ended in Texas so I can say that we won the class A trade? Or can I just be happy that we got class A, an important piece of the roster? Do I have to pull for Arizona’s fans to go through a bad season and for Josh Naylor, who is now in Seattle, I just wanted to mention, this letter came in before the trade, so to get traded so I can feel good about getting Slade Saccone.
Or can I just be happy that we got a guy with a lot of potential who could be on the team for years? We’re beasts for cheering when a player gets hurt, yet we’re good fans for cheering that a player goes somewhere and fails, that they get worse than they were when they were here. Seems like bad energy to me. I don’t want to see young men who are trying to live out their dreams suffer so I can feel good about getting another player. I want my team to acquire good players and build a complete roster. That’s the priority to me.
Debating trades is what fans do. Openly cheering that a guy’s career takes a downward term seems ugly to me. And again, that’s from Rich Primo from Akron. Thanks for that Rich, really interesting stuff there. How do you feel about that, Terry? Come on, Rich.
Terry Pluto (01:06:45.222)
stop being so rational. How’s that? Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Well, maybe it’s because, the feeling at Cleveland fans is we just never could win enough or whatever it is. So you want to win that. I mean, the thing you don’t want is you trade junior cam and arrow. That’s what you don’t want. And, I forgot the name of the picture that, they got in return, it was bounced around, but.
Uh, and cam and arrow last day was he had like 25 or 30 homers, you know, that. Yeah. It that what a killer that is. I mean, to be, to a little background, cam and arrow was I think 17 or 18 years old. He was playing in the, um, it’s like the Dominican league in, in, um, Arizona that they have for really young players. And there was a picture that the, um,
David Campbell (01:07:19.385)
Oh, he’s on his way to 40. He’s up around 35 now. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:07:42.55)
Maybe you could Google it, a picture that the guardians were enamored with with Tampa Bay. And they came to him, I think he was in AAA, and they began talking. And it’s really hard to look at a 17 year old or 18 year old and say, this guy’s going to be good. So, but somebody for Tampa Bay targeted Kaminaro and that’s who the guardians gave them. And I forgot who the picture’s name is.
He’s pitched a little bit with Milwaukee in the big leagues, that, but, that’s a, it was, it was a big, you know, big, as I remember asking Chris Antonetti press conference, he started to explain that, like what I just said, and he stopped and he goes, it just was a bad trade. And I said, but Chris, Tobias Myers, yes. And he said, look, it just was a bad trade. I, and you know, you’re better off just saying that. I mean, of course.
David Campbell (01:08:27.031)
Yeah, Tobias Myers is the guy you’re thinking of.
Terry Pluto (01:08:38.574)
You know, the, uh, the guardians did get, um, they did get, uh, commons Ardo from Tampa Bay. That was in the trade for, uh, Aaron Savalli who’s bounced around. You know, some fans mentioned that the Tampa Bay did get Yandy Diaz from Cleveland. was a four way trade. And that was bringing Carlos Santana back here the second time, I think in 2019, something like that.
So that was what that trade was about. I actually did not like that Diaz was in that deal. I thought that was a real mistake. Cause, and I wrote it. I remember writing the thing is like, you know, the interesting trade for Santana don’t like people seeing Diaz. That was like in the headline because I felt he would, he would be a really good hitter, which he has been in Tampa Bay. And so you, you go up and down with these deals and.
But in the end, Santana made an All-Star team that year. They traded for him with Diaz. so winning trades, losing trades, but you don’t want a, what was the guy’s name again? Myers? Yeah, Myers for Kamen Rider and I, you don’t want one of those. And frankly, if you’re Texas, you don’t want getting Corey Kluber near the end of his career for Klausse. Of course, now who knows what’s going to happen with Klausse too.
David Campbell (01:09:50.829)
Bias Myers. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:10:06.242)
I mean, to me, the remarkable stat, by the way, I had it in the paper the other day and online. Klaus’s ERA like after middle of May was something like 1.8. You know, so I don’t know what all went on there, but he certainly was pitching well.
David Campbell (01:10:06.329)
Yeah, I, I, yeah.
David Campbell (01:10:23.929)
Yeah. So to go back to kind of what Rich is getting at, you don’t want to wish ill on somebody. And I get that sentiment and I’m trying to think of this Josh Naylor thing, right? Like he’s playing in Seattle and the guardians are chasing Seattle and a couple other teams for that last wild card spot. So do you want to see Josh Naylor do well, or do you want to see Seattle lose tonight if you’re a guardians fan so that the guardians can pick up ground? So like there’s a, there’s a fine line there. So I get what Rich is saying, but
Terry Pluto (01:10:34.926)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Terry Pluto (01:10:42.455)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (01:10:54.573)
the people running your favorite team have jobs to do. And the way we keep score is are they maximizing the talent on the team with the tools they have? sports is about predicting what’s going to happen next. And that’s these guys’ jobs is to predict what’s going to happen next.
Terry Pluto (01:11:01.73)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:11:09.334)
Yeah. And on top of that, yeah, David, when you’re in Cleveland or Tampa Bay or whatever, you got to live off these trades. This is where you make your money. Now, when I did talk to Matt Farmer the other day, said, you know, we have to make smart trades and we have to be good in the farm system. We have to be good at this. You know, there’s not a lot of money to just go and bring in like the Dodgers, just bring in three starting pitchers, you know, big money.
So that’s another reason it’s important. So now what we’ve seen though with Naylor thus far, and you could look up this numbers while I’m talking, David, that would help, is Cleveland decided we’re not gonna go heavily invest in this guy. They put him on the market and there was not a big market for him because he was gonna be a free agent at the end of the 25th season. I remember they traded.
And I know Sakona got knocked around his last start or two, but he’s, he’s had a really good year for him. And then Arizona gets them and he was playing well for them and they decide they’re not going to pay them either. And they trade them not to Seattle. So what are the numbers there?
David Campbell (01:12:34.553)
Alright, Josh Naylor this season with Seattle so far 21 games and he’s batting 256 with a 771 OPS with Seattle.
Terry Pluto (01:12:46.924)
You know what’s funny? Look at his stolen bases in 21 games.
David Campbell (01:12:50.009)
Yeah, he’s been stealing out. So he had 11 steals with Arizona in 93 games and he’s got 11 steals with Seattle in 21 games. So I know every time I watch the highlights, he’s racing around the bases.
Terry Pluto (01:12:54.572)
Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:12:59.288)
like he thinks he’s Jose Ramirez he’s gonna steal all these things but he’s only hitting 250 what since the trade right and yeah one of the concerns that the Guardians had last year and you could break it down pre and post all-star game I’m not you don’t need to look at that but it’s a thing is that he wears down because of his conditioning they’ve never said any of this of course but that was the other concern and
David Campbell (01:13:08.409)
256, yep.
Terry Pluto (01:13:25.782)
So we’ll be in Arizona, clearly. forgot where they got from. I don’t think it was a big time prospect or anything. there’s something about Naylor that, is a red flag for teams when they look at say more than that. Now, would you want to bring Josh Naylor in on a one year deal? Absolutely. Or two year deal. Sure. But you know, if you’re Naylor’s agent, you’re looking for a lot more than that.
David Campbell (01:13:50.893)
Yeah. And when his contract is up, it’s going to, I wonder how much of a term he’ll get and how much money he’ll get. He’s a good guy to have in the clubhouse and he produces and there’s not a ton of guys like that out there that are affordable. So.
Terry Pluto (01:13:55.597)
Mm-hmm.
Terry Pluto (01:14:04.074)
Yeah, there aren’t that right. So that’s the thing. Yeah. And the short term you want them a long term. Cause you think to yourself, yeah, Lord, he’s not in real great shape to begin with. And you know, if I give them four years at a hundred million dollars or 80 million or, know, what am I going to get?
David Campbell (01:14:23.769)
Yeah. All right. Well, thanks Rich for that email and getting us kind of down that road. It’s an interesting concept and we appreciate you sending it in. I think we’re good, right Terry? Anything else you want to mention here? All right. I do want to make sure to tell all of our listeners, we love hearing from you. I have a bunch of emails about betting and Ortiz in class A and I want to save some of those Terry next week. Maybe we can delve into those and spend some time talking about sports betting. There’s a lot there to go through. Yeah.
Terry Pluto (01:14:34.25)
That is it
Terry Pluto (01:14:50.454)
Right, because August 31st is the next time they’re supposed to give an update on that.
David Campbell (01:14:55.659)
Right, which is coming up in a week and half here. So yeah, but if you want to hit us with any thoughts, comments, questions, interesting ideas like Rich just sent us, you can send that to sports at cleveland.com in an email. Put that Terry’s talking in the subject line and we’ll try and get it onto an upcoming podcast. So thanks everybody for listening. As Terry mentioned, we appreciate all of you for helping this thing grow and we look forward to talking to you next week on Terry’s Talkin’.
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